For one, no where is there a rule stating in the helpfiles you cannot kill inner/outters. that is doctrine created by cabal leaders that is a general concept adopted to the cabals on belief of ideals. You don't generally kill your cabalmates unless they breech their conduct of the cabal. Cabal inners/outers cannot, obviously, do this.

They also do not carry legitimate equipment.

Also note, that Grinning Skullz is not not even a cabal. Stated countless times by others. Does not even get cb. Unlike cabals, it's not restricted by pking 'team-mates' if you all them that. It's encourage. It's the essence of the orc.

Also note, Tremblefist has legit equipment that i have a right to take.

Not only that but you strip me of 1k immexp for getting a club I want under circumstances that is encouraged by orc rp. Roleplaying experience.

BUt then you brand me as an orc that is not to be trusted by other orcs. What? Orc force other orcs to serve them. They are no joining my tea table by choice. So stripping enslave is horribly done.

Not to mention countless people in the past killing tremblefist. Its what orcs do. Are you saying I dont have a right to equipment because i'm an orc?

I guess I'm just confused. I've killed Tremblefist with orcs in the past for his gear, I've killed other orcs in the past for RP (be the strongest RE Thrak, etc). It seems like the whole grinning skull schtick is you kill those weaker than you to assert dominance, that is how you get made chief too....so, is it now going to be punishable anytime an orc kills another orc, or gets made chief, or well..any of the orcy things that were approved in the past?

Just take away Orcs ability to down cabal items and let them join cabals again? Or just the first?

Tremblefist, as noted in the helpfiles, can Squelch any orc from any distance, and oversees who is chief. Mess with him, and he might just do that.

I moved his gear elsewhere a reboot or two ago, not that there aren't dozens of comparable items.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

no text

It removes the incentive for players to kill him.

Remember you have to kill him to find out that the gear isn't über after all, otherwise.

You are a magnificently skilled orc-chief, who gives out gear all the time and generally helps orcs as a whole.

I am a weak ass, know-nothing orc who dies constantly, and is generally a douchebag who everyone hates.

I catch you at low hp one time and bash you down.

What happens to me?

Do you hug me and move on? Or do you push my #### in and squelch me?

This is a world where people dont stay dead. Get that straight and you'll realize what the problem is with all this crying.

Nt

If you can't enslave, outlanders should not have a reason to hunt you now :).

nt

For one, no where is there a rule stating in the helpfiles you cannot kill inner/outters.

Doing it while others are raiding (to get their item back) in order to reset the guardian is mechanics abuse, on top of the RP issue. How dumb would it be if you were raiding the orcs to get their item back, and they just kept hitting their own inner to prevent it?

Tremblefist decides who is or isn't the Chief, for example. From 'help clanchief':

"A village shaman oversees the selection of the Chief as well as other rituals integral to the culture."

From 'help squelch' (which was the first option considered by the Immortals who witnessed, but frankly we're not sure without testing if it would work properly with the Chief code):
"This can be done in person, or the Chief can approach Tremblefist to punish an orc who is in Thera but not in the Village.

The Chief may also approach Tremblefist to revoke this punishment, although acts of forgiveness or mercy are exceedingly rare among orcs, and may send a message to others that the Chief is weak."

Note the power relationship between the Chief and Tremblefist. What you got was considerably smaller than the orc equivalent to uninduction (Squelch, which strips Adaptations in full).

That might have been clear if you made any attempt IC to challenge it, but you never said a word IC. At the time you were told it could be temporary, but you're not going to earn anything back by complaining on forums and outing who you are in the process.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

nt

Logs show no change in powers after the orc killed Tremblefist. That's why the raiders came back later and killed Tremblefist again, and the logs show they got their powers back only at that time.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

nt

But why stop now.. look how far CF has come.

If this problem seems to occur with the same players over and over, did you ever consider that the problem might be something other than the imms?

Considering my last couple have had run ins and spats with the Imms, I dunno.

I haven't changed my playstyle at all over the years, and I was typically fairly well received by both players and imms. Somehow though, I had a string of, IMO, very suspect punishments for infractions that wouldn't have gotten many other people in trouble.

SEE: Zhenyen KILLING THE INNER and only having to give up a piece of gear, as opposed to me turning a blind eye to an ELDER SCION telling a guy in my pk range to kill the outer and losing a cabal power.

Or my shadow getting anathema'd for looting a corpse where he would never, ever get caught in town except by an Imm. Where Looting isn't explicitly against Imperial law. (As Tribunal law differentiates Looting and Theft, but Imperial Law only bans theft.)

Yeah, but in your last how many chars have you had anything bad happen? 2 chars out of dozens isn't exactly what I would call a constantly punished player =P

sdfgf

But hey... you get to be right regardless of the facts and I get to not waste my free time. So win win?

>But hey... you get to be right regardless of the facts and I
>get to not waste my free time. So win win?
>

You've been acidic toward the staff for well over ten years; I think it's safe to assume that there is _nothing_ within reason the staff can do to please you. So... yeah?

nt

You know CF is the way THEY want it.

And that's how it is. We can either like it and play, and not like it and not play.

Expecting anything else is just stupid.

I don't see any reason why a pledge/member of a cabal would have to kill their own outer/inner guardian. Why not code it so they get a "You cannot strike the guardian of your cabal." message when they try?

We talked about something like just having the guardian expel you on the spot for attacking (as a mortal cabal leader likely would if you attacked them), but there was concern about the various mental affects that can result in you involuntarily attacking something, or (for example) not realizing that certain area effects can draw damn near everyone into combat.

Your idea is better in some ways, but I'd want to chat with Nep and others about whether or not that opens up different exploits. Not much comes to mind (other than being able to use otherwise reckless area effects), but we don't want to fix one thing and break another.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

He also dies and releases all items he holds regardless who kills him if he holds the item.


I am upset that you formed a bases earlier of 'killing him repeatidely to halt retrieval' Which cannot even be done.

Regardless of the order of events, the raiders still had to wait out the repopulation (on/near orc turf) and then deal with a fully-healed Tremblefist.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I don't have a dog in this fight as the player is not one I like the style of, assuming he's still into the same things.

However, it's unusual for cabals to kill cabal mates. It is common for orcs to kill orcs. There's even coding for it. Given that tremble has gear I don't see why an Orc would be punished for fighting for it.

It feels like the Orc culture encourages the sort of thing seen here.

Certainly I've considered killing tremble with my orcs and it's never occurred to me that it would be considered an abuse of mechanics. If there's gear to be had, it seems odd that an Orc can't take it. Orc culture is all about taking what you can when you can, by force usually.

If tremble is to be off limits, I'd give some serious consideration as to how players are supposed to realise it. This is not a cabal, as previously mentioned.

They didn't have to wait on or near Orc turf if they didn't want to.
Also, goodie conjies must wipe the floor with tremble fist, no? So a fully healed tremble fist is not really an advantage of any significance in this case?

Point one and point two: I know every little thing turns into conspiratorial nonsense and I doubt this is a specific targeting of crafted.

That said, it does seem from observing both points of view that the punishment given was one born of the punisher not understanding the mechanics involved. Assuming abuse of mechanics when there wasn't any to be clear.

Plus, I just wanted to add another twosome for incognito.

Given that it is well known who plays one of the attackers in this case, do you think a player would have made a decision to break a rule? Seems fairly clear to me that the player thought he was doing something acceptable.

1. Do intentions have any affect on guilt? Does bringing this issue to the forum instead of attempting to handle it in game, behind closed doors, with leather chairs and cigars make it harder to repair?

2. With the plethora of times immortals are nailed for stuff they shouldn't be nailed for, can we expect them to easily admit being wrong and to make reparations when they are correctly nailed?

Yes, bringing it here makes it harder to repair. Shouldn't have been brought here if a resolution was sought.

In this case, I would say that intention is relevant, though it is probably too late in the day for this judgement to change. It might affect in game info tho.

1. I agree, good conversation. (I'm counting this as a point)

2. I do not like your refusal to participate in the word game that you propagated by playing the Deuce of Points, not once, but twice. The least you could do is create a semantic duality with me.

Sorry. I think I used up all the two words now. I win.

I remember getting a few people to strike their own cabal guardians with confusion darts. It was really advantageous for me when that happened and it would lose that advantage if they just got a message "you cannot attack your own cabal guardian". On the flip side, it wouldn't be fair for the other person to get ejected from the cabal for hitting the guardian while confused.

Not sure how you could implement something that prevents people from abusing the mechanics while not penalizing other mechanics.

Edit to add idea: just a suggestion but what if when you struck your own guardian you get a message like "destructor smacks you upside the head for stupidly attempting to strike him" or whatever and it's accompanied by a 2 rounds of lag for you and a loss of hps but no combat.

No text here.

Treat tremble fist as an inner? Then items are returned regardless of who kills him.

nt