Arials are obviously great for warrior builds but aren't great choices or really good choices for most mage classes. I wanted to suggest that arials get 23 int for mage classes.

My thoughts for this is because they seem to be the worst class for conjurers, the worst for shapeshifters, middle to low end for invokers, bad for necros, and one of the best for transmuters.

I think they're fine.

Conjurers: a niche choice, but there's something unique about them (best air elementals of anyone by far with Skykin)

Invokers: Still one of the best choices, unless you expect to have fly up near-permanently from your cabal choices. For a Scion invoker, for example, it would still be my frontrunner choice.

Necromancer: Trip kills me as a necromancer more than pretty much anything else. Arial would be in my consideration.

Shifters: Okay, this isn't great.

I feel like 22int/20wis isn't good enough to make up for 19 str, particularly when h-elf/h-drw is there.

25 dex is still good for some things, and permafly is no joke.

Especially due to perma-lag being a really scary thing as a non-giant AP.

Being able to keep from being dispelled/tripped or being lucky to evade a bash is a huge huge boost.

Especially if I slip in an iceball between bashes.

I'm just not sold on arial. Compared to halfie you're sacrificing 3 strength for 4 dex, and you don't even have dodge. Throw on the 300 exp penalty and the choice is obvious.

Evade and some other dex based skills.

AP always seemed more like str based to me, but if you are building around the dex based stuff...

You also have lashes of the slave which seems to accelerate sharply in effectiveness as dex increases.

But how are you going to survive as a frail high exp race if you power up to 43 and therefore 51? Certainly not with a whip in the mainhand.

For a dex build drow seems the more attractive option - yes your strength and con is even worse than arial but at least you have sneak and 24 int going for you - without strength as an A-P you're not going to do much in the way of outmeleeing people so You'll be relying on sleep far more. Hence, halfie for the equivalent-to-arial sleep and better range (big deal in landing spells) or drow for the better sleep at level 51.

Heck, I might even go with felar rather than arial, they at least have edges to make up for their abysmal (for an a-p) stat block.

You keep pointing out a few classes that arials aren't optimal for. Yet they are an incredibly popular race for many classes. The disconnect seems to be that you think they need to be at least decent for all classes. They were toned down on purpose so they stopped being such a popular/default choice for so many classes.

They seem to be where they need to be right now - great for some classes, decent for some, and bad for some.

Since that's where my experience lies.

I'm just saying that I, personally wouldn't play an arial A-P, but I would have done had before the change.

"I'm just saying that I, personally wouldn't play an arial A-P, but I would have done had before the change." - That is a good indication the change is doing its intended job - making arials less optimal.

Many people have played Arial ap successfully, including those not really known for pk.

Don't forget spin will also work better, and the clubs are arguably not as dangerous because only a gang should be perms lagging you whilst hitting with water or lightning, or one of a few weapons. Mithraism is plentiful.

I like Drow but Arial isn't worse, just different.

Also Arial gear is easy to get and great for a vaulting ap.

how much better were the spells from 23 int compared to 22? negligible?

It's pretty negligible. Not nothing, but almost nothing.

With Skykin will the air elemental edge and adept of inner planes and student of inner planes still boost it?

Yes, that all adds up, though Skykin makes the biggest difference by far.

denjsd

Seeing as you can't make a circle in the air, is there any safe way to conjure the ultra buffed air elemental without it one rounding you if it comes angry?

I can't think of a good way to not take a risk there.

Are you telling me there is a risk for trying for great power? How does that even fit the conjurer concept?

Are you telling me that I should expect to die playing my own class?

Between risk of "I might not be skilled enough to handle this."

and risk of "lol rng ####ed me."

One of them involves skill.

Yes, I understand you want to be able to do whatever you want with your "skill," but this is the conjurer class. Conjurers make deals with devils and attempt to control beings through sheer force of will. You can go for broke and get the baddest mofo to serve you, but you take the risk of dying. That's the exact concept behind the class.

The risk should be in keeping them happy or they one shot you, not rolling the dice on if they will come angry and one shot you or not.

Higher power=more demanding, not a harder dice roll.

There are definitely ways to manage that risk - but I'm not aware of a real "trick" to it. Does that make sense?

High charisma, one exit room down to a circle, full hp?

Its been awhile I might be missing some.

Also my comment was just for Matrik :)

Where dice rolls being hard is what makes something difficult.

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Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

Keep the base stats.
But how about +1str/-1int (20str/21int) for melee types, -1str/+1int (18str/23int) for mages?

And bring back +300exp penalty if you wish.

Last char I played was an arial warrior, if I haven't forgotten anything.

Imperial sword whip with calming the tempest and gates of the forge. Wouldn't chose gates again, but sword spec + calming the tempest made for a build that could face almost anyone without too much to fear.

Only build I had major issues with was elf/wood-elf with striking the shadows' footfall. In the case of the elf he was dagger mace for huge maladiction. In the case of the wood-elf he was sword / whip like me. I should have beaten the wood-elf only I botched my tactics. The elf I came out well against but only because of luck (either the war master turning up and bashing just in time to save me, or with the craziest parry all success rate that I'd ever seen).

You could add like a +1 dex bonus to arials in form to counter balance dex maldiction. They are more adept at staying dodgy. Just a thought.

It was hard enough to perfect all your spells, all 7 paths, starting with 71%, but 61%? I think it would be alot less painful to just carry around fly potions. Yes, you could waste 2 practices for each spell, but then you lose out on the hp gains. Just not worth it for me. Arials lost 1 point of intelligence, but did they get compensated elsewhere? Maybe add a point of con to offset having to use 2 practices/spell?

Fly potions can be easily dispelled, and can't save you when someone gets the drop on you.

Which is maybe a devil's bargain you're willing to make.

I think arials are one of the better choices for invokers. Maybe if you insist on going 7-path, it's not, but for 5-6 paths, it's very doable.

You are overlooking a handful of perks that come with being arial for some of those classes. The ability to be any align/ethos goes a long way in versatility for a character. Perma fly is huge as well. For invokers you get increased affinity with air which in turn means you can play with more points in other places. There are a few arial specific edges out there for the mage classes as well. I agree that they are not the 'best' pick out there but they stack up fairly well with the other races available.

The cons versus pros in my eyes heavily lands toward the cons.

Cons
Vulns to lightning and water.
Higher Exp penalty 350 I believe.
Second/third lowest int depending on the mage.
2 practices per skill. <- This is my issue
Low charisma for conjurers
Low con
Hydrophobia
low strength (low carry weight) <-not a major issue
Can't use certain gear due to wings/beak

Pros
High dex <- only useful for transmuters/edged conjurer
Perma flight
arial only edges
Better with Air forms/better air affinity
Arial only gear
Any ethos/align

Svirf one of the worst or the worst mage race for comparison.

Cons
Vuln blunt
Middle row Exp penalty
Always neutral
17 int
low charisma

Pros
stone skin
svirf only edges including svirf/dark elf only forms
unbashable by giant villagers
high wisdom 4 practices per level 2 per skill.
infravision
Better earth elementals/earth affinity
better con
higher strength
Svirf/gnome only gear including one that allows perma flight

One of the best options
Half-elf

cons
half vuln iron
nothing extra
no edges

Pro
24 int/23 charisma depending on mage.
moderate other stats
no exp penalty
Any ethos/align
1 practice per skill

Arial in my eyes is the worst pick for any mage class besides transmuter.

If there is any single trait which would make me hesitate to pick Arial as a race, it would be Hydrophobia. Every wand under water becomes a massive chore and huge risk to get.

As for Int... I think you're too afraid to spend a few hours on abilities before going off to use them in PK. 22 Int lands you with 66% in one practice IIRC, which is still higher than giants get with 2. Those first 20% will come no problem, skill or spell. It just takes a small amount of effort to make up for that 1 Int point that was dropped.

You can also carry way more stuff than anyone except a Centaur, and you don't really need to carry flight preps at all (so you're saving inv slots + carried weight). Just need enlarge/reduce, and an understanding of which is going to benefit you most and when.

Also... I wouldn't say svirf is the worst mage race. That would be felar IMO, as they have pitiful Int, Wis and Str (so no carry capacity) on top of the crippling effects of Hydrophobia.

CF gives you a virtual +1 int for int values 23 and above for the purposes of practices compared to other muds

I really can't continue to take this thread seriously. It wasn't all that long ago that many players were pushing for the Arial nerfs and I was arguing against it. Now that it has been done, I think it's fine as is. Arial is hands down the best race for a warrior that doesn't care about explore areas.

Nerf hydrophobia please. :P

I'd have done arial A-P by now if they had 23 int. 22 just doesn't cut it.

Are you? Seems like they got busted down to 22 int fairly recently...

Hell, I think QHCF still shows arial at 23 int. Not that anyone updates that cess pit more than once every decade.

But I was much newer when the change was put into place

Man, time is moving too fast :( It must have 26 dex.

nt

and see how no one wants to play arial mages any longer

Like you said, you get the extra air boost, you can cover both of your vulns with class abilities, and teh perma-fly.

Arial Conjurer is pretty terrible, but so is Gnome.

Arial Transmuter is meh...not terrible, but I really don't ever see a reason to be an arial transmuter.

Arial Anti-Paladin is relatively awesome.

Arial Druid is...does anyone ever roll an Arial Druid? Heh.

Arial Bard is meh.

Arial Shapeshifter is interesting...not a terrible amount of difference between Arial/Human/Half-Drow to be honest (short of different gearing choices).

Mechanically, I don't know exactly how big the difference is on a bard for 22 int v 23 int but it seems to me that for a bard with an 18 charisma it could be significant.

Can you even take psychological insight with a 22 int?

All I know is the 23 intelligence felt like a nice bonus to offset the low charisma when I played Jastyna. You get higher mana, better saves, more practices and its effect on the edge.

24 or maybe even 23 dex to get that 23 int. I know it was suggested at some point but don't think anyone responded.