In response to the Voszoad pbf comment

"Ganging people down with Halifan now. Did not attack Halifan once over the encounter, including after Fort pal was dead. Sat side by side with him to loot the corpse. Just noting."

When you tinker with cabal dogma as much as outlander has over the past year, things which once seemed simple and clear get kinda muddled.

I played pretty much nothing but outlander with a few orcs sprinkled in from about 2003 until 2012 (I didn't actually play all those years), so I kinda felt like I had a grasp on the cabal. When I was playing outlander, I don't think a Harbinger that routinely hunted with an orderly dwarf paladin would have been Harbinger very long, but When I was playing Kraldinor, I had Ekaerok and Tolgrum coming after me hand in hand pretty much every day during AM hours until Ekaerok imm'd. The fact that Ekaerok would hunt Tolgrum when I wasn't around doesn't make the two of them traveling any more palatable from the outlander side IMHO, it just makes it less tenable from a Fort side to be working so closely with one who also hunts the light when there isn't a more pressing enemy.

When Jasthrean was running things, I can remember getting chewed out playing a neutral outlander because after fighting off a conjuror, his unbound elemental was left behind and we weren't feral raging it to death. Now, conjuror servitors not only don't have to be destroyed, they are ok to travel with for some outlanders under certain conditions.

When I played Xasivus (nightreaver), Scions were my number one priority and I would never cooperate with them at all, but when I played Dorlanz (Sunwarden) I would never travel with paladins or conjurors or run with fort if any were even wake either, so things have changed a bit.

I think after Sindrai, Amaranthe thought changes were needed to make outlander more good leaning. Outlander was fine. Sindrai just needed someone to teach him how to be Sunwarden like Jasthrean did for me when I was playing Dorlanz. I knew as Xasivus he was screwing up, but as a reaver, I couldn't really justify pulling him to the side and telling him how his branch should be run.

Another element in all this too is just that Fort was really hated at the time (moreso than normal) so I think a lot of people were just letting things go or trying to find ways to cooperate against them. I will admit to playing Drogtar (he did become the most deathful mino shaman with a pbf :)), and there were several times outlanders would just let me walk by as I was trying to recover there scepter from the fort. There were times they didn't as well, but I think at least some of them were exercising some form of sportsmanship if I was already outnumbered by not piling on.

And if camping outlanders is an issue, just pave the way to the fort like they did with the dwarf forest way back whenever to clear out the 15 rangers that were omnipresent there when it was all forest.

Oh well this is long enough. I feel better for the moment so I will go ahead and hit post and leave it at that.

my view on Outlander was always that it should NEVER rely on other cabals for help or support. Even ones they might not technically be at war with at the moment are not friends to the cause because if they were, they'd be Outlanders.

I've played Outlanders (and Sylvan before them) for pretty much my entire time at CF. I've had a few Sunwardens (none you mentioned) along the way and a Harbinger or two (I can't get into evil role-play for some reason). I might not actively hunt someone from Fortress as a Sunwarden but I wasn't going to be all friendly with them either. I have always thought the very worst thing you could do for almost any cabal was to call for help from another cabal to defend or raid because it was inherently a sign of weakness to do so. Some cabals like Tribunal or Scion (may Fort) are less concerned about images of strength but the rest should be embarrassed if they call for help.

I guess the point is that philosophically speaking, anyone other than Outlanders, the uncaballed who aren't racial/class enemies, and maybe a Herald or two are not your friends, and probably outright enemies. Even that Villager you travel with can't be trusted because they might come hunting your mage friend in the cabal

But then again, I'm not in charge or even playing now so take it with a grain of salt.

Once the favoritism door is opened, it really can't be closed without cleaning house. When the door is opened by the administration for the administration, well you may as well just accept it as the new standard and play by those rules.

If you still want to play that is.

I either have no idea what you're talking about, or you're implying something that really makes no sense if you stop to think about it.

I am not agreeing with it however.

What I believe he is implying is that there is a large shift in Immortal attention to the "good" side of the pantheon/playerbase. Therefore, actions which may seem allowed for neutral players (such as Ekaerok) are seen as bad for evils.

The circular logic that makes it fall apart is the administration aspect, since Vozsoad just IMM'd much like Ekaerok, and I'm pretty sure neither had to jump through flaming hoops.

I'll start by simply responding to what directly relates to me..

When I was playing outlander, I don't think a Harbinger that routinely hunted with an orderly dwarf paladin would have been Harbinger very long, but When I was playing Kraldinor, I had Ekaerok and Tolgrum coming after me hand in hand pretty much every day during AM hours until Ekaerok imm'd. The fact that Ekaerok would hunt Tolgrum when I wasn't around doesn't make the two of them traveling any more palatable from the outlander side IMHO, it just makes it less tenable from a Fort side to be working so closely with one who also hunts the light when there isn't a more pressing enemy.

In response, Tolgrum was one part an enemy. His orderly aura was the only real issue (read the bark carefully if you disagree), yet he didn't serve a cabal whose goal was order so he was much less an enemy in my eyes. Near the end, when he was dabbling in some of the character quest stuff I treated him like a larger priority.

I get it - it sucked for you as Kraldinor because you could likely handle either one of us by ourselves but together it was much harder. But bringing it up after all this time is just kind of lame. Had I gotten one indication from an Ancient that how I viewed the hunt wasn't proper, I would have adjusted how I acted. It never came (for whatever reason).

**

In the end, why don't you trust that the people who are abnormalities are RPing it out and bringing something to the game and adjust? Just because YOU the player are indoctrinated in past outlander dogma does not mean each of your new outlander characters is. Every cabal should have some ability to sway as the ideas of the mortal leaders change over time, within reason.

Some of the abnormalities you mention were some of my favorite people to interact with (Xasivus, for one).

Ekaerok and Tolgrumm raiding together every day is fine, But Drond hopping onto Nabor's back after RPing with him from the time he was level 15 to retrieve the codex once was worth uninducting her over.

I think you overestimate the amount of friendship that was there... Regardless, Ek and Tolgrumm were not cabal enemies. Was the same true of Drond and Nabor?

"In the end, why don't you trust that the people who are abnormalities are RPing it out and bringing something to the game and adjust? Every cabal should have some ability to sway as the ideas of the mortal leaders change over time, within reason."

Don't make excuses for yourself and not accept them for others.

I was explaining my actions, not making excuses. I think Drond's RP was fine, it was just that the immortal guiding his cabal didn't like it and punished him for it. I think my RP was fine, and I was never punished or pulled aside and told I was doing it wrong. It could be that I should have been pulled aside, but I think that would have happened when I got tattoo or leader. Who knows.

I don't intend to respond anymore to this thread unless something meaningful comes up.

Makes sense. I wasn't picking on you, it just didn't make sense. Now it does.

"In the end, why don't you trust that the people who are abnormalities are RPing it out and bringing something to the game and adjust?"

Finding new and exciting ways to justify ganging people doesn't really strike me as bringing a lot to the game. It's just a way to get better gear/stats/etc.

I know in real life people make a lot of concessions to gain victory but theoretically that's what the cabal dogma is there to prevent (with good reason, IMHO).

Right, and you realize that for neutral and good outlanders there is no cabal dogma against fortress? I don't remember ever grouping and holding hands with him and bashing everyone down. There are times when I refused groups because a dwarf would be there. There were times when I hunted down large groups of Fortress members because they were sheltering an enemy (Rydell and a lot more on Corte comes to mind).

I just saw Empire, Tribunal, and Scion as the main enemies and would ignore minor enemies until I had none of the above to hunt. Kind of like all of the battleragers I have experienced being told to focus on mages and nexus before any other enemy...


To give you some numbers according to my PBF..

*Four instances where Tolgrumm died and I was involved
Mar 20, 2013|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|Tolgrumm vs 1: <51> Ekaerok (100%, slash)
May 3, 2013 |Lv 51|Galadon|Tolgrumm vs 3: <51> Koa (12%, icy needle), <51> Ekaerok (57%), <51> Kraldinor (29%)
May 3, 2013 |Lv 51|The Dragon Sea|Tolgrumm vs 2: <45> Vicereaa (7%), <51> Ekaerok (92%, slice)
May 17, 2013|Lv 51|The Aryth Ocean|Tolgrumm vs 1: <51> Ekaerok (100%, flurry)


*Two instances where I killed someone and Tolgrumm was involved
Apr 2, 2013 |Lv 51|The Eastern Road|Goryn vs 2: <51> Ekaerok (10%, crush), <51> Tolgrumm (89%)
Apr 23, 2013|Lv 51|The Imperial Palace|Haepmith vs 2: <51> Ekaerok (40%), <51> Tolgrumm (59%, immolation)



For the complaints about working so heavily together, the only kills to come of it were when Kraldinor and I accidentally worked together...

I didn't play when you were a mort, so I have no idea about Tolgrum or you. I just mean in general, if I'm playing an imperial, all those people are joining together to come after me hand in hand most of the time. Usually unsuccessfully because I'm a sneaky snake so you're not always going to see tons of kills about it but there it is.

I could be the only imp guy on and I'll gotta box all those guys for a retrieval regardless of who has the Codex.

I brought it up now just because I thought it was somewhat relevant to the comments on Voszoad, plus it was something that had always bothered me and I had always just hunted around it. If some branches are blurring things, why not all.

I agree on the bark (at least before it was revised, I haven't seen it in over a year) being kinda fuzzy on paladins, thieves, orcs and anti-paladins, but I thought it was pretty black and white on dwarves (maybe some wiggle room for wardens not hunting them). Even if that dwarven paladin never dug a whole in his life, it is highly possible he might have kids that will.

On the whole roleplaying abnormalities, it is probably cool for those involved in the RP, but kinda sucks for those on the receiving in. Xasivus was a little more chummy with one paladin than he should have been, but outside the confines of our RP, we never hunted together and each had killed each other on occasion as well.

Thanks for responding.

I think shaking up the cabals a bit might be in order.

Right now I can't really tell the difference (outside of lip service inside the cabal) between :

Fortress and Goodie Outlanders
Scion and Evil Outlanders
Scion and Scarab
Maran and Acolytes
Orcs and Evil Outlanders

They all kinda do almost the exact same things.