Would like to know why this change was made.

EDITED TO ADD: ***WARNING***: This is a long post. The first part gives the background for where I'm coming from in posting this. The middle part gives some description of the immediate events surrounding the change as experienced from my perspective. The last part details my suggestion on a reasonable alternative solution to the problem the Imms want to address. Feel free to skip the parts that don't interest you.

BACKGROUND FOR THIS POST
Obs/explore is one of the aspects of the mud that I really like. I don't find it to be a grind at all, and it's one aspect of the game that I really excel at (area knowledge/mastery).

When it comes to pk, I'm mediocre at best. I'm not the worst pker in the world, but I'm nowhere near the best, either. So edge point acquisition from pk is very limited for me, especially getting into the midranks and higher. There have only been a few builds where I've seen much pk success at higher levels, and each time I discover one, it promptly gets nerfed in some way. Flyto/swimto nerfing is one example. This change came about when I had a really successful CE pk'ing air/water shifter and people started complaining about me, even giving semi-ooc bitch fests in game. Shortly after, fltyo/swimto got slowed down in the wilderness, and slowed down more if maladicted. Suddenly I couldn't pk for crap anymore since most of my foes at the time had maladicting skills (lots of mace, dagger, and spear specs).

So I quit trying to gain edge points via pk for a while, and went back to farming obs/explore. Now that's being nerfed. And I feel that it's really unfair the way it's being portrayed by the Imms. The Imm responses I'm seeing so far keep saying things like "the guy who begs every hero who will listen to drag him through high end explore areas" and things like that, which is simply not true 90% of the time, and a gross exaggeration of what really happens the other 10% of the time.

There has never, I repeat, NEVER been a time when I've played a character who "begged every hero who will listen" to "drag me through" high end explore areas. 90% of the time, I'm going through those high end explore areas as a low level character, completely solo. Half the time I make it through alive, the other half the time something goes slightly wrong and I eat a horrible mob death, or two, very rarely three. I discovered first hand that there was a minimum level mechanism that physically prevents characters pre-21 from entering the Mists of Thar Acacia. I had tried to go there early one time, and couldn't get through the briars. I prayed about it, and an Imm told me that was there to prevent newbies from accidentally stumbling into the place before they were ready for it. So I ranked up to 21 and then went in. Alone. And I miraculously survived. Similarly, I've explore the entirety of Teth Azleth at level 17, alone, and survived. I even went all the way to the Matron Mother (or whatever her name was changed to for the sake of non-plagerism). And I didn't use a hero to get me there. I get much satisfaction from taking on challenges such as this.

Does that mean that I do it alone all the time? No. Probably about 10% of the time, if I see a hero or other higher level character online at the time I decide to go, and that character is someone who I have already interacted with a fair amount, and I know (or at least strongly suspect) that they are willing to accompany me, then I'll ask. I do this partly for my own protection, but partly also because I know that there are still a lot of people who play this game, who don't know much of anything about some of these more dangerous places and would love the chance to go and learn about them, and I always take the time to teach them about the area. Very rarely, the one I ask will be another veteran like myself, who already knows the area extremely well, and I don't really have to teach them anything. Occasionally, I'll find someone who knows it very well already, but has one or two gaps in their knowledge that I can fill in. In the end, the vast majority of the time, both of us end up benefiting from the experience, and the whole process is role-played through from the very beginning.

Some people will argue that a low level character shouldn't conceivably have any knowledge of places like Trothon, or the Octagonal Tower, or whatnot. I find this to be rather shortsighted considering the nature of the world in which we play. There are coutnless explanations as to why a low level character might have knowledge, even intimate knowledge, of places like that. The simplest explanation is that all of our fictitious characters have equally fictitious families, who are just as likely to be seasoned adventurers as our own characters will become. These families are free to share their personal experiences with our characters, even describing in great detail, or even drawing out a map for us. I'm not talking about OOC information gathering here, either. I'm talking about using knowledge I have gained through years of personal CF experience--knowledge that is stuck in my head and cannot be ignored in the same fashion that I can't ignore the knowledge that lets me run from Darsylon to Seantryn modan all while blinded (a feat that I would challenge anyone to successfully accomplish in a similar real life scenario). This is the same knowledge that tells me what dozens and dozens of items in the game can do, and where they can be found,. This is the same knowledge that allows me to be intimately familiar with what other classes in the game can do, aside from my own.

One can argue that using any of this previous game knowledge is bad roleplay, claiming that there's no reason why a low level character should have any of this knowledge. From a certain standpoint, this argument is true, but at the same time, there are several other ways to view things, which given the context of the game and the fact that we have The Great Academy of Thera, can easily explain why low level characters might have access to this rare knowledge. Denying all of these possibilities outright brings us very close to Pro's personal view of RP. And let's face it, even the Imm staff use all this same game knowledge (and really, even more than I might ever hope to have) when they play mortals. The ones that come most to mind for me are various mortal characters played by Twist and Daevryn whom I have personally interacted with, some of whom actually TAUGHT me much of the elite knowledge that I have (I learned about Aran'gird from one of Twist's characters (I forget the name), Trothon from Twist's British-accented Fortress invoker, Kuo-Toa lair from Brom, played by Twist, Yzekon from from a mortal played by Iunna).

RECENT EVENTS PROMPTING CHANGE
Yet in spite of all this, I got ROTD'd at the base of Trothon with a low 20's character, and accused of 1.) Perma-grouping rule violation which was never explained specifically and which I'm still completely baffled about, 2.) bad alignment RP. This one I'll grant happened once as a result of being drunk and half asleep at the time, which is no excuse, but after the fact, it was roleplayed through and recovered from ICly. Why even bring this up again when it's in the past and hasn't happened again? 3.) bad RP in general because of relating intimate knowledge of the conjurer class (to a newbie who clearly needed it) while playing a low level, non-magic class "who has no reason to know such things." It was mentioned that the method for relating the class information was done in a fashion that was too close to being straight OOC talk. I'll grant that talking about mana levels in conjuring really pushes the boundaries, but I'm far from the only person in the mud who has talked about such things, and this was far from the first time I've had a character talk about such. This has been talked about in-game for years, both by me and many other people I've met. How do you think I learned about it in the first place? I've never had anything said to me about it before, and that includes with characters I've played who received a great deal of Imm attention, some of whom were not even magical classes.

Amongst the accusation of bad RP in general, as I was responding to it, I was told out of the blue, "You're the one who wanted to go to Trothon," as if that was somehow connected to anything already on the table of discussion. My reply was that I've gone to tough explore areas as a low level character dozens of times before, and have met dozens of other characters who have done so also. It's never been a problem before, so why now?

During this whole ROTD discussion, none of my rebuttals or questions were ever responded to, and soon I was told that I was "not in trouble or anything" and soon after I was trans'd back to Market Square.

The next day, the change to explore xp was made.


SUGGESTED ALTERNATIVE FOR A REASONABLE SOLUTION
Personally, I think restricting explore xp like this is attacking the symptom rather than the problem. A simpler, and less detrimental way to solve the problem would be make such areas impossible to enter pre-30. I say pre-30 because by the time characters reach 30, most of them have gained enough class ability and hp/mana to AT THE VERY LEAST flee through the area. This would be comparable to a character in a fantasy/adventure novel who dares to brave those deadly ruins in the dark forest, outside the village, and only barely escapes by the skin of his teeth. He might even get lucky enough to grab a rare jewel or magical artifact laying around within as he dashes through, dodging deadly traps and all manner of powerful, foul creatures. Most of the time, though (read non-adventuring NPCs here), anyone who enters there never comes back, or simply joins the legions of minions guarding the place.

By level 30, shapeshifters are gaining their 2nd tier forms. Paladins and healers are getting pretty defensive. Conjurers (good aligned) have angels that can rescue and get archons and devils (for evils) at 35. Transmuters have all of their dam reduction spells, with maleability at 35 and duo dimension at 36. Necromancers have animate dead and can raise something of an army to protect themselves. Mages in general have reliable shield and aura at 30, with barrier coming along at 35. And other classes who may not be ready for those areas at this point can group with classes that ARE ready to blitz the area.

Instead of restricting explore xp from these areas, just implement level access restriction, as already exists in some areas.

Alas, you fear too much to go that way.

Or, since someone might want to play a fearless character (or a minotaur immune to fear) a more RP appropriate phrase might be:

Remembering your training from the Academy about such dangerous places, you realize it would be unwise to proceed that way.

I would even suggest putting a room in the Academy that explains about observation and exploration, that:

"Guildmasters are often impressed by the bold and daring who bring back tales of dangerous and exotic places. But be warned, young adventurer! Some places are truly perilous indeed, and should not be entered by those with less than a modicum of training and proficiency in their guild!"

The areas this level 30 restriction should apply to are Trothon, Organia (both entrances), Octagonal Tower (pretty difficult to reach already due to dire wolves), Dragon Tower Ruins, Sitran, Aran'gird, Yzekon, Nizarsh Datul,Thar-Acacia, Ancient Dragon Lairs, the Abandoned Mines, Kteng's Laboratory, the lowest two levels of Mortorn (The parts where Grazur is able to wander, since he can't come up past the certain point), the dead vale and forest in Eil Shaeria (basically, the places where the undead are, since the town itself is relatively safe), Maethien (in the past), Ruins of Maethien (present), the arena in Ostagaliah (in the past), Coral Palace, Ante-Hell, The Island of Corte, The High Lord's Keep, Village of Mal'trakis, Pyramid of Azhan, Whistlewood (this had the added benefit of preventing clever thieves from getting, and hording, the Stoneform amulet at low levels), Valley of Veran, and the Abandoned Siege Encampment. These are all the places where explore xp can be most easily farmed in large quantities, and pre-30 character can reasonably be said to "have no business being there". From 30 onward, however, most of these are places that are quite doable solo if one is clever enough (and probably lucky enough). There are several of these areas which still will be nowhere near doable solo at level 30 (dragon tower ruins and dragon lairs comes to mind), but it's sort of a non-issue, since even heroes are severely challenged there, so there's really no chance of anyone begging a hero to escort them through, and then successfully doing so.

Moreover, a level 25 restriction would be appropriate for the Elven Vaults, Teth Azleth, Prison of Glymarach, Wastes of Nonveil, Kuo-toa lair (because it's a good ranking spot for the clever adventurer), The Dark Wood (leading to Ante-Hell), Keep of Barovia, Elemental Temple, Ruins of the Deep, and Dra'Melkhur. These are also areas where xp can be farmed, but by level 30, the challenge of the area or danger of the area is already beginning to diminish. So set the level requirement a bit lower. This way, people who still want a really tough challenge can get it, without being able to unreasonably farm obs/explore from the area.

Any area not listed here should have absolutely NO restriction whatsoever on ability to access the area, or ability to gain observation or exploration xp from the area. Over the years, I've become exceedingly adept at getting my low-level character to, and through, places where they "have no business being," and as such, I can tell you that any area not on this list is not nearly challenging enough to justify restricting it in anyway.

Putting a physical restriction on entering these areas quickly and simply resolves the problem of farming xp in places you guys feel is unreasonable for low level characters. Also, given the nature of these areas, restricting access to them does not in any way prevent characters from acquiring gear there that they could get previously, since, at the levels I mentioned, they can't get gear there without help anyway. So really, the only thing this restriction does, is prevent obs/explore farming. Those are really the only reasons why someone of lower levels would visit those areas anyway. A physical restriction will also prevent any confusion as to what areas are now being restricted for explore xp, and what are still available options, thereby preventing people from wasting time exploring areas without gaining anything from it. If you can access the area, you can gain from it. If you can't access it, then you shouldn't be there yet anyway. It's simple, elegant, effective, and clearly understood by anyone who wants to know.

nt

n/t

"I made it all the way through the drow city to the last Matron Mother pre level 30 without dying."

I read that and quit reading. =P

No way under the best of circumstances any low level character can get halted for 5 ticks by a high ass level mob like the one upstairs at the end of drow city and live.

This entire discussion is much ado about nothing and over reaction on the IMMs part to combat a game issue that doesn't really impact anyone negatively. If you don't want people farming stuff for whatever reason don't implement perks for it to begin with. I think its really cool, even if people have developed a system to get the most of it.

It's the lack of an upper bounds (not strong enough diminishing returns).

If it was something where I could pick 3-4 areas per char, explore the crud out of them, get great rewards and be *done* I'd be ok with it. However, so long as I can get *more* rewards by doing *every* area, it's going to impact how I play the game in a negative way (and I don't mean scripting, I just mean time wasting).

It becomes one more thing I will need to farm to remain competitive.

That's the real issue, I could pick 3 areas and explore the hell out of them and be very satisfied but I'm tired of running every char through the same areas over and over because I know they're worth a ton of edge points.

I also don't really mind this change but I also don't think it will actually do much in practice other than annoy people (like so what if I have to do it at level 11? I still have to do it).

Some people don't like to be pk monsters either, but those who choose to avoid it, take an equally big hit on the edge point front for passing up on it. If you start transitioning edge points from obs/explore to cabal raids/retrievals, you will once again hedge out the people who want to play uncaballed characters. Sure, uncaballed people can help in raids and retrievals, but they're still participating in cabal politics, which sometimes wants to be avoided. The point is, instead of forcing people to play the game one way or another, allow all the options to be out there for people who want to play their own way. The help file for edges says (without looking it up) something along the lines of, "Characters who excel in multiple areas can earn a fair amount of edges." That means characters who excel in multiple areas. It does not mean "everyone who wants to be competitive." If you suck in one area, then you have two choices. Either accept the fact that you suck in that area, and move on with your life and your characters' lives, or learn to improve in that area. If you decide that one area is too much of a bother for you, then don't do it, and enjoy playing every other aspect of the game. You argue that forgoing one area leaves you non-competitive, but that's simply not true. First off all, the amount of edge points available from obs/explore DOES have a cap already in place, and it's been there from the beginning. Commerce xp is another area whe you can earn edge points, and that one is very little tapped by most characters. I've met a handful of characters at best who have gone all the way up the ladder of commerce skills, and most of the are probably played by the same handful of players (myself included since, as already mentioned, I'm not that great on the PK front, so I have to find another source of edge points). Yet another, and unlimited source of edge points is Imm Xp. This is an area that sometimes I bother with and sometimes I don't. The easiest way to do this is via Role Xp. Some people complain about the grind and "necessity" of farming obs/explore, while other people complain about the tedium of writing roles "just to earn the edge points for it" so they can "remain competitive." I'd be willing to bet there is some significant overlap between these two groups as well. If you don't want to mess with writing a role, or roleplaying for edge points, then don't bother. But if you choose that route, then don't bitch about other people doing it. Just accept the choice you've made, or choose differently. That's how the real world works. Why should a fantasy world be any different? It's just life, so deal with it, and don't use it as an excuse to rain on other people's parades.

So if I gotta fight some guy with 7 edges I want 7 edges of my own. You can't get there alone on role XP.

So long as I can get three edges by exploring Hamsah docks, Mansion of Twilight and Organia solo without any risk I'm going to do it and so is everyone else.

Then it's no longer 'rewarding' one smart guy but some crappy "everyone with a brain would do this" requirement.

This falls into the skill practicing argument. So long as other people are maximizing their defenses you have to as well. I've tried it both ways and perfecting those skills yields tangible results. It's a treadmill that if you're smart you do but it's still a treadmill. How many treadmills do we really need?

And people do say that practicing is optional as well but anyone who pays attention plays one or two characters with weapons/defenses mastered before coming to the conclusion that they're much easier to win fights with than ones without that. MUCH easier. Spamming up your weapons and defenses is way less work than winning fights with 75% parry.

You can say that getting 20k obs/exp XP is optional but it's really not unless you like to make things harder on yourself.

What I meant was, not everyone can earn edge points by being really good at pk. And given all the information provided by Twist last month, now you know how to maximize edge point acquisition from pk. If you want to be such a pk monster, you should start there. You don't even get much in the way of edges early in the game anyway, but you can certainly rack up the edge points early on with a systematic approach to pk. By the time you reach your 30s, if you worked the pk system correctly, and you're as good at pk as I assume you are based on your post, then you should have a nice little chunk of edge points accrued. Toss in some role xp and keep farming the pk xp, and you'll easily be able to choose 7 edges. Let's not forget that there's commerce xp also, which has additional benefits that come with it. Commerce skills can definitely be leveraged to indirectly boost pk ability as well.

The point I'm making, which you seem to be ignoring, is that you make your choices, and then live with the results. If you don't like the results, then make different choices. Life is about accepting the results of the choices you make, or learning to make different choices.

Instead, you want to say, "I don't like doing this. It bothers me, even though I benefit from it. Since it bothers me, I'm not going to do it, or at least, I'll complain really loudly every time I do it. So either get rid of it so no one else can benefit from it either since I don't like to, or I'm just going to keep moaning about it, even though I know that changing it is going to ruins someone else's fun. But I don't care."

Perhaps that's not the way you intend, but that's the way it comes across to me, and probably to others who feel similarly to me regarding the current obs/explore system.

If they're good at PK they do both. If they're not good at PK they just do exploration. If anything, if you're ONLY good at exploring, you should be in favor of a edge cap so that your exploration is roughly equally valuable as someone else's PVP + exploration.

Hope that makes sense.

Depending on the class I'm playing, I may not need all the edges that I can conceivably acquire with a given character. Shapeshifters, for instance, I only need about 4 or 5 edges, but those edges tend to be very expensive, requiring a great deal of edge points. Spin the wheel and roll the bones are the strongest examples, and I may want barrier attunement if my black location sucks or isn't found. There are a few other edges I might take as well with a shifter, but that's it. A thief, on the other hand, I would want to horde as many edge points as possible for the sake of Devious Versatility, which is the most expensive edge thieves can take (as far as I know). Once I qualify for that edge, I usually take it twice, which doubles the cost for the second instance. Once I have that edge out of the way, there are a handful of other, really cheap edges I'd take, and probably only one or two mid-cost edges. For a warrior, there are a lot of edges I would want, and would probably need, in order for me to increase my viability, since warriors are a class I'm not particularly gifted with (I'm far better with mages and stealthy classes).

All this is to say that I would never choose the option of limiting myself to 3 or 4 edges on my character, even if that means that my enemy gets to choose more also. There are only so many extremely potent edges out there, and choosing more than that puts you into the realm of taking much less useful edges. So as long as I get my critical ones, I don't care how many less-critical edges my enemy gets.

So restricting my best source of edge points is a bigger hinderance to me than it is to the guy who is already really good at pk. If that makes sense.

But I did get the observation Xp for looking at it. It required a very specific class build to accomplish at level 17, and even then, it's still not easy. I've pulled it off quite a few times, and I've also had it go drastically wrong quite a few times. If you don't understand how it was done, that's fine by me. Can you blame me for keeping a few of my tricks secret, considering that every time I find a way to do something really cool that I didn't think I'd be able to do, the moment I draw attention to it, it gets nerfed? Think outside the box a little bit, get REALLY creative, and stupidly brave, and you might figure out how I did it (referring to reaching the Matron Mother in the First House). But don't go throwing around accusations (even if only implied rather than overt) about lying just because you don't understand how it was done.

I guess that is doable, but you're going to lose a lot of con for the sake of not much of nothing.

I really have no horse in the race for farming explore xp, but I will address your comments about your ROTD chat. Having been a third (silent) party to this conversation, I can clarify a few things.

>RECENT EVENTS PROMPTING CHANGE
>Yet in spite of all this, I got ROTD'd at the base of Trothon
>with a low 20's character, and accused of 1.) Perma-grouping
>rule violation which was never explained specifically and
>which I'm still completely baffled about,

1. Some of the playerbase had commented that you appeared to be attached at the hip to another character. When these comments come up, those of us who have the appropriate commands look into it. We did find that the two characters spent an inordinate amount of time together, almost to the exclusion of other interactions. The two of you, at different times, were pulled into the ROTD for a chat. I'll put this in caps so the more vitriolic members of the peanut gallery don't take this post out of context: YOU WERE NOT BREAKING ANY RULES. HAD YOU CONTINUED ALONG THE PATH YOU WERE ON, YOU RISKED VIOLATING PERMAGROUP RULES. RATHER THAN BAN YOU, IT WAS THOUGHT BEST TO GIVE YOU A WARNING.

>2.) bad alignment RP. This one I'll grant happened once as a result >of being
>drunk and half asleep at the time, which is no excuse, but
>after the fact, it was roleplayed through and recovered from
>ICly. Why even bring this up again when it's in the past and
>hasn't happened again?

2. I agree with almost every word in this comment. Almost. I am not going into details about the IC behavior of your character on a public forum. Suffice to say, it was brought up for a reason.

3.) bad RP in general because of
>relating intimate knowledge of the conjurer class (to a newbie
>who clearly needed it) while playing a low level, non-magic
>class "who has no reason to know such things." It was
>mentioned that the method for relating the class information
>was done in a fashion that was too close to being straight OOC
>talk. I'll grant that talking about mana levels in conjuring
>really pushes the boundaries, but I'm far from the only person
>in the mud who has talked about such things, and this was far
>from the first time I've had a character talk about such. This
>has been talked about in-game for years, both by me and many
>other people I've met. How do you think I learned about it in
>the first place? I've never had anything said to me about it
>before, and that includes with characters I've played who
>received a great deal of Imm attention, some of whom were not
>even magical classes.

3. From the helpfile:
Level(0) OOC IC CHAT ICLY OOCLY 'IN CHARACTER' 'OUT OF CHARACTER'
As a roleplaying game, Carrion Fields requires that you remain IC (In
Character) at all times. All forms of communication here (say, tell,
gtell, yell, pray) are to be used as though it was the character speaking, not the player.

I am flabbergasted that you consider a lowbie non-mage class telling a hero level conjurer that 700 mana (or whatever it was) is best for conjuring "really pushes the boundaries" of roleplay. You were giving hard numbers for mana use.

You go on to say how you're "far from the only person" who has done such things. Either you are trolling for sympathy via exaggeration or your idea of great roleplay is radically different than mine. Other people probably have talked like this, and when we catch them, they also are taken aside and spoken with. If it's a discussion between two conjurors, then those characters have the basis for understanding how much mana to use. You, as a fighting class, and a lowbie at that, DO NOT.

>I really have no horse in the race for farming explore xp,
>but I will address your comments about your ROTD chat. Having
>been a third (silent) party to this conversation, I can
>clarify a few things.
>
>>RECENT EVENTS PROMPTING CHANGE
>>Yet in spite of all this, I got ROTD'd at the base of
>Trothon
>>with a low 20's character, and accused of 1.) Perma-grouping
>>rule violation which was never explained specifically and
>>which I'm still completely baffled about,
>
>1. Some of the playerbase had commented that you appeared to
>be attached at the hip to another character. When these
>comments come up, those of us who have the appropriate
>commands look into it. We did find that the two characters
>spent an inordinate amount of time together, almost to the
>exclusion of other interactions. The two of you, at different
>times, were pulled into the ROTD for a chat. I'll put this in
>caps so the more vitriolic members of the peanut gallery don't
>take this post out of context: YOU WERE NOT BREAKING ANY
>RULES. HAD YOU CONTINUED ALONG THE PATH YOU WERE ON, YOU
>RISKED VIOLATING PERMAGROUP RULES. RATHER THAN BAN YOU, IT WAS
>THOUGHT BEST TO GIVE YOU A WARNING.

There have been quite a few characters that I've interacted with over the course of this character's life. I can think of a couple characters that I've spent a fair amount of time with, both of whom started as ranking partners. I think I reached level 15 alone, though, and then decided to stay there to train skills and pk for a while. During my time at 15, I think I had like 3 log in sessions or something with one of those two, pking together or sparring against each other. Considering that we were both about the same level and in the same cabal, that's only natural. I also had a few log in sessions with the other character of the two, some of which was spent ranking, and the rest was spent with him helping me train defenses against trolls. I think he might have accompanied us very briefly on a couple pk runs, too. Concerning the first one, he and I actually only spent a little time together pk'ing, and quite a bit of time sparring together. But there were very long periods of absence from each other, during which time I did plenty of pk hunting on my own. Most of my pk range at that time was evils, or neutrals grouping with evils. I had some group offers during that time, but turned them down because I wanted to pk for a while before I leveled up more. Once I ranked up to 20 and beyond, I've barely seen the dude, and haven't seen the healer at all, that I can remember. These are the only possibilities I can think of, and I don't see how either of those is even heading toward a permagroup. It seems to me more likely that people complained because when we DID pk together, we pretty badly destroyed everyone we fought. Some people got killed repeatedly due to random, unexpected encounters when we were searching for someone else. I don't think we ever killed someone twice in a row without hunting others between, though I might be mistaken about that. But when people get killed like that, they tend to complain. Consider also that this all happened very early in the character's life, when hours are short and any time at all with a given character amounts to a higher percentage. So if your command shows percentages rather than specific time, those percentages are going to appear far worse than the actual time they represent. Also, does your command show how much time is spent alone? Or does it just show how much time is spent grouped with others? Most of my character's life has been spent alone, ungrouped. His grouped time is drastically less than his total logged in hours, and always has been.

>>2.) bad alignment RP. This one I'll grant happened once as a
>result >of being
>>drunk and half asleep at the time, which is no excuse, but
>>after the fact, it was roleplayed through and recovered from
>>ICly. Why even bring this up again when it's in the past and
>>hasn't happened again?
>
>2. I agree with almost every word in this comment. Almost. I
>am not going into details about the IC behavior of your
>character on a public forum. Suffice to say, it was brought up
>for a reason.

Please feel free to private message me about this, then. I asked about this in ROTD, but never got a reply. I don't know how anything I did after that one incident got resolved was bad alignment RP, so I'd love some clarification.

>3.) bad RP in general because of
>>relating intimate knowledge of the conjurer class (to a
>newbie
>>who clearly needed it) while playing a low level, non-magic
>>class "who has no reason to know such things." It was
>>mentioned that the method for relating the class information
>>was done in a fashion that was too close to being straight
>OOC
>>talk. I'll grant that talking about mana levels in conjuring
>>really pushes the boundaries, but I'm far from the only
>person
>>in the mud who has talked about such things, and this was
>far
>>from the first time I've had a character talk about such.
>This
>>has been talked about in-game for years, both by me and many
>>other people I've met. How do you think I learned about it
>in
>>the first place? I've never had anything said to me about it
>>before, and that includes with characters I've played who
>>received a great deal of Imm attention, some of whom were
>not
>>even magical classes.
>
>3. From the helpfile:
>Level(0) OOC IC CHAT ICLY OOCLY 'IN CHARACTER' 'OUT OF
>CHARACTER'
>As a roleplaying game, Carrion Fields requires that you remain
>IC (In
>Character) at all times. All forms of communication here
>(say, tell,
>gtell, yell, pray) are to be used as though it was the
>character speaking, not the player.
>
>I am flabbergasted that you consider a lowbie non-mage class
>telling a hero level conjurer that 700 mana (or whatever it
>was) is best for conjuring "really pushes the boundaries" of
>roleplay. You were giving hard numbers for mana use.
>
>You go on to say how you're "far from the only person" who has
>done such things. Either you are trolling for sympathy via
>exaggeration or your idea of great roleplay is radically
>different than mine. Other people probably have talked like
>this, and when we catch them, they also are taken aside and
>spoken with. If it's a discussion between two conjurors, then
>those characters have the basis for understanding how much
>mana to use. You, as a fighting class, and a lowbie at that,
>DO NOT.
>
This goes back again to what I was saying about a character, even low level ones, having access to knowledge from other sources. For a fighting class, it's stupid to not know what other classes can do. Considering that I haven't actually written down my role, no one knows but that my character may have had an experienced conjurer for a parent. Or both of them. Perhaps he grew up hearing mage talk around the dinner table. This line of reasoning gets extended even more when you consider that not only is he a long lived race, but that he also has the Late Bloomer flaw, meaning that he starts out his adventuring career already well into adulthood. In the case of his race, I think this adds another hundred years or so (just a very rough guess since I'm not logged in right now to check his RP age). This is ample time for him to learn ABOUT various classes and what they can do, if he didn't already learn about it from a family member when he was younger/someone he drank with at the bar/random mage conversation he overheard somewhere. If that isn't enough for you, consider that adventurers pass through the Academy of Thera where they are exposed to a massive amount of information about the world in which they live, and the adventuring life. This is expressed mechanically through the massive library of help files we have, where each OOC help file could be said to represent a "book" about a subject. Of course the help file isn't a full book in length, but ICly, the character is reading a book. For a student of warfare, who will inevitably be fighting against and alongside these mage classes, it behooves him to study up and investigate what they can do.


One last thing, if you're going to ROTD someone for anything, if they are unclear what exactly the problem is, or disagrees with the accusations leveled against them, and responds to those accusations in a civil, conversatory manner, even willingly conceding valid points, at least have the courtesy to respond to their questions that seek further clarification. I was genuinely seeking illumination of the areas you all perceived to be in violation (or on the road to violation), but rather than responses to any of my questions, I simply got more accusations and warnings. Instead of trying to show me how the things I was doing were in error (aside from the perceived OOC talk issue), you just threw more warnings and ignored most of my efforts to seek correction. Something to keep in mind for the future.

Sorry, but all of this (even if it totally makes sense to you, and I'm willing to give you that benefit of the doubt) comes across like you're a third-rate defense attorney trying to create reasonable doubt in a way that only makes the defendant seem even more guilty. The jury's sitting there thinking, "If the best the lawyer can offer is that maybe Mumm-ra flew in from his black pyramid and knocked over that liquor store instead, this guy really must have done it!"

Rationalization suggests that someone did something they have reason to suspect as being wrong, then rationalizes away the wrongness of it by offering reasons why it's ok. I'm not really sure which which aspect of my post you're referring to here, so I'll assume all of it.

Concerning OOC accusations, this is how I have always viewed things. In some areas of the game it's more noticeable than others. Every time a discussion occurs about how my character knows anything at all about, say, Aran'gird, I always explain it with something like, "My father used to adventure a lot before he settled down to raise a family, and would regale us with tales of his journies. It's one of the reasons why I became an adventurer myself. Or other things along those same lines. I've explained ICly why I have knowledge of other classes as well. My reason for sharing that knowledge as a player to another player is almost always purely from a desire to help an obviously newer player than myself improve in their CF competence.

Concerning permagrouping accusation, I STILL don't know for certain who it is that I'm supposed to have been close to permagrouping with. I'm just speculating about who it might be I've been accused of being attatched at the hip to. This is just a stab in the dark here with as much logic and memory as I can muster. If the accusation wasn't related one of those two, then I can't even begin to imagine who it might have been. If the accusation WAS for one of them, then I still fail to see how it can be justified from an Imm standpoint. I took another stab in the dark based on what Akresius said about investigating via Imm commands, on what might be the reason why such an investigation might come out the way it was. Not having any real knowledge of Imm commands, it's little more than a wild guess.

But frankly, that part is far less material to the truth than the reason for the accusation from other players that Akresius mentioned. I know that I was pk'ing people pretty reliably pre-20 because I heard more than my share of bitch-fests from several of the people I killed, some of them very strongly bordered on OOC rage-fests and included several, extremely vitriolic, in-game accusations of lingering around hero battles so I could full loot them, and that this was supposedly the only reason I killed so-and-so. When I assured them that my gear was not gained in such a way, I was directly called a liar and threatened with full-looting in return (which eventually, someone actually did). Given the level of anger I was receiving directly, I can only imagine what those same people were spouting off in prays and notes to Immortal. The couple times that I was actually grouped with someone for pk, we cleaned out our pk range quite effectively, which given anger levels, could easily be perceived by a pissed off player as the two of us being "attached at the hip," when the reality was that we only grouped for pk a couple times, and that was it. If any Imm was actually watching us at the times we were together, this much would be very obvious. Given that Akresius didn't mention first hand observation as a means of investigation used in this instance, I can only assume that the investigation was done by the "Imm commands" that he referenced. Since I don't know how those work, I can only speculate on what might have led to the conclusion that was reached. But my speculation here doesn't change the facts of the situation. I've only grouped for pk 2 or maybe 3 times, and that was it (I'm not saying 2 or 3 pk's here. I'm saying 2 or 3 times that we grouped together to run around looking for targets to pk for our cabal). And really, I think it was more like 2 times for pk, and the rest was for ranking or sparring for skill training (and the sparring was for several hours if I recall correctly).

EDITED TO ADD: Generally, when I'm falsely accused of something, anything, I will defend myself with every defense I can find. Assuming that a defense is invalid simply because the defendant grabs at every straw he can find does not mean that he is therefore guilty. It just shows desperation in defense, which can apply equally to both innocent and guilty parties. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm an ENFP bordering on ENTP on the Meyer's Briggs personality test. So even though I have a strong ability to take a rational, logical approach to any given situation, I'm still more Feeling oriented than logic (T-thinking) oriented. So sue me for tending to react to something in a passionate, emotional manner, rather than a passionless, cold, hard, logical manner.

EDITED ALSO to fix some gramatical errors (though probably not all)

for Christ's sake. It's an art man.

I'm that way IRL too. Everyone always tells me that I talk too much. In posting here, I type at 68 wpm when I know what I want to say, so that compounds the problem.

nt

1) None of which really excuses the whole '700 mana' thing, which doesn't make much sense IC, no matter how hard this guy wants us to believe it.

2) I didn't see the conversation in question, and I'm not really interested in reading a 2,000+ word legal brief about it, but generally as an experienced player and/or Immortal, you know when something is roleplaying and something is not.

To use the example from the helpfile on language, if someone is saying "R U grouped? Kewl if your not, dude.", it's a good bet that "Role + Speaks in a very odd vernacular." (or the equivalent excuse when an Immortal speaks to you) isn't going to cover it.

Making those calls is part of why we screen for good RPers with a strong character list when we make someone an Immortal.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The main reason for inventing the concept of a minimum level is because of players who roll a lowbie and then beg every high level character in sight to run them through Trothon or the like.

But that being said I think not being able to farm XP like crazy pre-PK is overall a positive change. If you want to do it, you have to have some skin in the game now.

Eventually exploration XP will have either no or a much diminished role in edge point awards (as I get other things to replace them, like awards for recovering your cabal item while severely outgunned) online. At that point maybe no one will care anymore.

I may also yet chop down some of the areas that people are apparently fixated on farming in terms of exploration/observation reward so it's no longer worth the effort.

While we're on this topic, what would really make my day is if JimmyDean et al would stop pretending to not be Cyradia. Your history with basically everything you now rail against is as bad as anyone else's and I'm really tired of the faux populist crusader act. If you're done with the game, be done with the game and move on with your life -- I thought you were way too mature for this year-long tantrum, but, here we are.

Edit: really, we're going to deny that? Even people who don't have a ~15 year history with you and your idiosyncrasies can see how you and Parv can't resist showing up to support each other. (Speaking of, Parv, I really was hoping you meant it the last time you promised to stay positive.). Who you are doesn't render your opinion null and void, but it sure does cast it in a different light.

While I like the idea of moving away from explore/obs exp, I really dislike having to do it, but to compete at the top level you have to.

The thing that worries me, is shifting it more towards cabal wars may not...be the best thing from the "current state of the game" standpoint.

My suggestion is:

Try and make (the majority) of edge points rewarded by things that can be done solo.

My .02 is that...cabalwars is nowhere near as fun as it once was (my personal experience) and, the reason for this is less raiding. Often times retrievals happen vs nobody, and it seems to me that tying edge points to things like cabalwars that depend on higher #'s of people in-game seems maybe counter-productive.

Of course, I could be biased as I've only played outlander/scion/battle in the last 3 months..but, raiding/counter-raiding seems almost dead.

The flipside is, you could make the whole raid process "easier" to accomplish - which may encourage it more, but that brings balance implications with it.

Just my .02

Yeah, I definitely don't mean for cabalwars to replace all of it. Just to introduce some new sources and phase out or down others. That's just the one that I've been working on recently.

Edited to sum it up : Essentially making it so you're hard capped at how many edge points you can accumulate before 200 hours, 300 hours and 400 hours (and then being allowed unlimited). This, as a means to prevent farming edge points specifically while allowing old age chars to get their benefits.

If I could come up with a version of it that doesn't reward idling for 100 hours before you start playing I might be interested.

But I'd prefer to email you, so I will!

This way people wouldn't know the solution. What email address do you use these days?

nt

This I tend to agree with but I know that people will want more incentives to be 900 hours old. Honestly, I feel like if you last that long you weren't tenacious enough.

>If I could come up with a version of it that doesn't reward
>idling for 100 hours before you start playing I might be
>interested.

I don't think you need worry about someone idling for 100 hours to get edge points. I mean who would really do that in practice? And if some fool actually did, who cares? The game doesn't break if one character or two got a few edge points they didn't actually deserve or do anything for (besides, if you happen to notice it you could just slap on some negative points on them with a chiding lazy ass echo).

As I've stated elsewhere, to move away from the current chore of obs/exp grind, IMO edge points should mostly accumulate from longevity, i.e. edge points=levels*a+hours*b, where a/b are appropriate scaling constants. The scaling being such that say a 100hr hero would have a decent pool of edge points from longevity alone.

Additional sources would be imm xp, PK (both wins and losses), the cabal war stuff (though I don't like that uncaballed would be at a disadvantage with this), etc.

Obs/explore would naturally remain as a source for xp (just not edges).

So, what is the one thing Imm/Players want to see more of in CF? I think everyone remembers one character that they can look back on and say "Man, Woldrun (example) really made CF come alive for me, and made everything for friends and foes alike more fun." If we want to encourage that type of memorable character to exist more readily why not mold the edge point reward system around those types of character?

By this I mean, instead of doing XYZ to get points make points trickle in more regularly for every day actions that just yell badass. I don't know what this list would look like, you could pool Imms and players alike to see what events/actions really ring that bell.

A few ideas though are

Long Lived (sliding reward based on hours/total hours, an arial can't live as long as an elf, but if they live out their entire life they can get as big a reward as an elf. Then have a topoff age that gets another edge point reward... say like 800 hours)
Caballed
Leadered
Killing badass
Saving badass (if you want to separate rewarding edge points into more than one category, this type would apply to healers and paladins that bring people back from the edge of death)
Finishing some of the more difficult quests
Killing certain legendary mobs (Tiamat, nightmare dragon, etc)
Seeing certain legendary mobs (Satan, etc...)

Edge points can be put into categories where standard characters can get the majority of edge points someone would require to be capable. But super badasses would get the extra smaller categorical bonuses to really flush out their extra edge points and give them that little boost to show why they are badass. This takes away from that grind, while still letting exploring be rewarded (who doesn't get a little giddy when they think of killing Tiamat or seeing Satan).

Now of course, there are likely more categories that you guys think of when you think memorable character, but that is for your internal discussion. I just figured it may help to throw out the "memorable" character idea.

Now my uncaballeds will be less powerful and awesome!

Lucky you I don't give two ####s. Luck you I'm not a psychotic with a bloodlust over a vidya game.

Thanks for the fun drama.

to crowdsource edge points (or fractions thereof)?

People for the most part don't mind seeing characters rewarded who make their CF experience more enjoyable. The problem is, it's not easy to boil down what makes an interaction "enjoyable" into bits of code that can be easily implemented. It could be a friend sacrificing himself so you survive. It could be a foe putting up a hell of a fight where both parties escaped alive. Someone might have said something thoughtful or provocative. How to reward and encourage the type of play that players enjoy?

Maybe give the players a (small) voice. Note this is intended as an addition to current edge point modalities, not as a replacement. Proposed mechanics could be something like this:

1. You have X points to give out per in-game hour played.
2. X scales with the level of the character, perhaps higher for cabal leaders, tattooed priests, and people otherwise recognized for being superior characters.

note: This also prevents characters from heaping goodies on lowbies in exchange for points, since they won't have enough to really move the needle.

3. You can allocate those points to another character as you see fit and (required) attach a note about why you are rewarding them a la imm xp.
4. You must give the points to another character who is in-game when you are (to prevent obvious abuses)
5. Achieving some number Y of these player-given points results results in getting edge points. It would make sense to be able to get them multiple times, though possibly eventually with diminishing returns (imms with knowledge of the mechanics could better comment on this).

Pros:
- Rewards interactions that may not necessarily be "capturable" through automated mechanisms
- Discourages loner playstyles (though by no means invalidates them)
- Rewards long-lived characters organically (they have more opportunities to make impressions on other characters)
- Provides a pretty cool addition to PBF, since you now have a log of player comments on the character doing the things for which they were rewarded.

Cons:
- Players may be reluctant to reward enemies in this way. But final paragraph of parent post notwithstanding, we can hope people would be adults.
- Opens the door for potential abuses (I'll give you mine if you give me yours). Mechanisms to prevent this are probably implementable, including limiting the number/frequency of times you can reward a given character.
- It's fundamentally an ooc feature. Maybe this isn't a problem (we do have a cabalwars command, after all).

I like this idea.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=50396&mesg_id=50396

Hutto, the Sleepy

Yep, not a new idea, but maybe has found its day.

Effectively a fame stat.

Please, for the love of my OCD, make the cut offs list in the AREAS command.

It's fine if you make people explore with some risk. Just don't make everyone guess when you intended that to be.

My latest character skipped ahead without doing any obs/explore grinding, and it was a lot more fun. I just have jack for edges. I did level sit a bit to hit some PK benchmarks. I wish I hadn't. I mean, I don't think I've ever hit 20k observe on a character but this one had less than 2k at level 30 which is low even for me.

Problem with edgepoints is people getting OCD about them. I've done the same even though I usually have tons of spare edgepoints when I delete. Knowing what I have to do to get max # of edgepoints makes me feel compelled to do it. It would be great to take out the below level X features of edgepoints anyhow so I don't have to tell people that I can't rank because I need to farm more obs/explore or reach a certain number of PK's. It's bad enough that I have to tell them I can't rank because I'm spamming skills.

I personally have a lot more fun when I throw caution and OCD to the wind and just rank up, killing people when I meet them on the road, but it also results in less twinked out characters.

On topic, I welcome this change, because farming obs/explore is the most psychotic thing and people should be glad that they don't have to do it anymore, even if the reason is that they can't do it anymore. Having said that I like the fact that there's a reward for going through Organia and Trothon because those are cool places that are also dangerous/annoying to get through and probably may as well not exist if they didn't give obs/explore (Then again I never get to go kill tough mobs in area explores, I regear in Galadon platemail inbetween gang loots). I could live without feeling the need to go to the high tower with every lowbie, however.

Both players and Immortals are overreacting to this small change.

IMHO punishing pre-pk players is not the right approach.
In fact making things less fun is NEVER a way to go.

How about:
1) REMOVE edge point gains from exploration xp all together.
2) REMOVE min/max level caps from exploration.
3) ADJUST xp gain based on recommended area level & difficulty, not char level.
4) GIVE edge point bonus upon reaching level 51 (bonus of whatever 26k exploration xp worth is now).


And if someone wants to have extra 100 moves at level 5, just let them.
Or players having a couple extra edges at level 51.


Also I think letting people see their edge points (like practices) would be just fine too.

Keeping things secret for the sake of being secret does not make sense to me.
This behavior just encourages people to form little secret groups to trade how_to_get_max_edge_points_walkthoughs/quests/ABS/etc info...

I really like the idea of your third point. Only making exploration/observation xp in an area if you are within the "Areas" recommended level should keep lowbies out of top end area explores.

I also like the thought of once you are above a given area's recommended level, you cannot gain the obs/explore xp from there as this keeps these areas challenging for everyone. To waltz through an area blowing it up as a hero that is a level 25 capped area seems like skewed too.

From the sounds of it, it seems like this was done with the intention to keep OOC communication between players out of the IC world. And while I am a loner with no OOC connections, I very much love to explore the areas in this game with the one or two characters I roll a year. I do not get much opportunity to play, and so to see the world through fresh eyes and be rewarded for it, is very enjoyable. And to say that my lowbie exploring galadon and arkham taking in the scenery is cut off just seems like bringing the hammer down too hard in the wrong direction.

>I really like the idea of your third point. Only making exploration/observation xp in an area if you are within the "Areas" recommended level should keep lowbies out of top end area explores.

This is sort of how it works now, except we don't really trust the "recommended" levels enough to use them universally, and some areas have "easy" and "hard" locations with separate rewards.

I also like the thought of once you are above a given area's recommended level, you cannot gain the obs/explore xp from there as this keeps these areas challenging for everyone. To waltz through an area blowing it up as a hero that is a level 25 capped area seems like skewed too.

The maximum level has always been there, and it works like you suggest.

>From the sounds of it, it seems like this was done with the
>intention to keep OOC communication between players out of the
>IC world. And while I am a loner with no OOC connections, I
>very much love to explore the areas in this game with the one
>or two characters I roll a year. I do not get much
>opportunity to play, and so to see the world through fresh
>eyes and be rewarded for it, is very enjoyable. And to say
>that my lowbie exploring galadon and arkham taking in the
>scenery is cut off just seems like bringing the hammer down
>too hard in the wrong direction.

There are still many areas where you can earn EXP/OXP in as a level 1. They're the kind of places where we'd expect level 1s to be hanging out.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I may be a black sheep here, but I actually LIKE observation and exploration as forms of edge points. This may be because I play only one character at a time, over a long period of time.

I don't find myself rolling and rerolling constantly, so I gradually work my way through every area as I rank into its advised level, with not a care in the world. Obs/Explore helps refresh my memory of the MUD, which is good because I don't maintain lists or maps.

A more competitive guy who rerolls if he eats an early mobdeath, or has multiple characters at once will more quickly get frustrated.

When we initially implemented the system, this was part of the goal-- get people to poke their head out of their guild/cabal and into lots of areas.

That said, the areas that now have the higher minimum levels are generally places where you wouldn't normally survive with a low-level character. The XP awards ideally scale with challenge. What we were seeing is that the more OCD players were getting other characters to 'clear a path' through lethal areas so they could walk undisturbed, which kind of defeats that point.

At some point I'll probably look through the tables and adjust some other points (number and location of waypoints, XP amounts, whatever) so this sort of thing is less profitable. Most of the locations went in while the system was very new and we didn't fully have a handle on how it would work in practice.

Of course, this is all a massive conspiracy so my lowbies can have several extra overpowered movement points and power Scan, and I can't think of any other way to abuse my power so diabolically. Awwwwwwww, yeah. These boots are made for walkin'.

(We also need a better system for the "recommended levels" section of the Areas command, which has historically been area author's discretion and not necessarily applied under common standards.)

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Give the ghost effect to all pre-pk, so they can't go to those areas.

I must be the only person who actually really likes Obs/Explore experience. I actually enjoy running through areas over and over. It has helped me relearn the MUD too.

Edit: Apart from the guy that posted directly above me o.0

Edit 2: It's a great way to level a character during off peak times. I'd hate for that to be taken away.

After all, JimmyDean and Parv thought I was you.

Without giving the show away in case we switch aliases again, I'm pretty sure. Before things got weird we were friends for a very long time.

The point isn't that you disregard what she says. It's more that her statements if written honestly are less "you did these things that I now think make the gameless fun" and more "WE did these things, but now I'm going to pretend I wasn't involved in making these decisions or pissing off some players or even in alienating some of the former imms I now complain are gone."

I try to take the high road and keep my mouth shut about people's flaws (and we all have them, even my favorite imms of all time, and of course myself) but apparently a year of tantrums and oddly immature personal attacks is my breaking point. If you don't like me or the game now, so be it. Don't sink to this level over it.

A cursory glance at posting similarities (mainly format and the like) would lean towards them not being the same person.

A deeper look at connections to the two profiles alleviates any thoughts I had that they may be the same person.

>The main reason for inventing the concept of a minimum level
>is because of players who roll a lowbie and then beg every
>high level character in sight to run them through Trothon or
>the like.

Honestly, who cares if lowbies beg? They do with gear. If someone begs me I tell them to get stuffed.

>But that being said I think not being able to farm XP like
>crazy pre-PK is overall a positive change. If you want to do
>it, you have to have some skin in the game now.

I'd be all for the change to make it work the exact same way but level 11 being the minimum. No issues with being in PK to earn such (with obvious exceptions for areas like Academy, Caravans, Kobolds, Aldevari, etc)

>Eventually exploration XP will have either no or a much
>diminished role in edge point awards (as I get other things to
>replace them, like awards for recovering your cabal item while
>severely outgunned) online. At that point maybe no one will
>care anymore.

I would hate to see edge points lessened from this. Quite frankly, my play times have very few people. A lot of the time zero in PK. Explore/Obs is the one stable thing in the game I can rely on.