Ive noticed the alliance, straight out between them of late.

When ive led both cabals ive never had them on the same footing, because realistically it shouldnt be. And had I, most gurantee'd boot for in that powergaming aspect.

I want a clear cut definition.

I don't play 24/7, but when things get mentioned to me, I handle it from all aspects of Outlander. I have the help of Strienat now which makes things easier because I have someone with a good grasp of the dogma to bounce suggestions to. As he grows into his role, the tension in the cabal will only increase.

Warring with certain cabals based upon alignment is fine. What is required to take a cabal item is that all 3 leaders must agree to this. The recent raid for the Fortress item shouldn't happen again. I can't see a Sunwarden agreeing to raiding Fortress. But, that doesn't mean it is impossible.

I have personally seen my followers in Scion and Outlander kill each other many times. An alliance isn't so much an alliance as it is more they are both hunting the same prey. Recently, I have had as many as 5 scion followers logged in at the same time. 4 of them had my tattoo. Outlander is in a perpetual state of war with Tribunal. My followers are typically going to feel the same way. The repercussions for being my follower is that you are more than likely going to have a wanted flag a lot and if you are successful enough to get my tattoo, chances are really strong you are going to have a con issue. This isn't always true especially with my successful ranger followers. But, Mirozah, Drogtar, Halifan and Voszoad have all eaten their fair share of deaths. Often times to each others hands. Nkgeh and Gawlar were followers as well, so having Nkgeh and Gawlar hunting the same guy is fine with me.

I can certainly see in some situations where my reavers and scion cooperate. But, I do agree that a Nightwalker should not be involved during those times. But, there is definitely leeway here as Nyst suggested in his posts. Reavers can work with Orcs too. I also see that scion and outlander hold each others items often as well. It is not an alliance. It is more of a use to gain an upper hand from time to time. Now, if I saw my reaver working with a conjurer, ap, necro, minotaur or duergar in scion or other, we would have issues. But a shaman, warrior, shapeshifter, transmuter etc. I would have no problems with.

No other cabal has as many "in cabal" deaths as Outlander either. the tension is there.

The three branches have three different opinions. Sunwardens are the nature friendly part of the cabal. Their powers are centered around nature. The Nightreavers are the destructive force of the cabal. Their powers are centered around destruction. The Harbingers are the buffer and are typically the greatest concentration of Outlander. They have a mix of nature friendly and destructive powers. Sometimes they will appear to side with the Sunwardens, other times they will side with the Nightreavers. The cabal is mainly run by their will as it is supposed to be.

Or is it just the combination that's out of the question, i.e. a reaver might work with a conjurer or an a-p, or a scion, but not someone who's both?

How is drawing power and inviting beings to thera from the shadow plane and working to increase extraplanar influence from there more permissible than inviting beings/drawing energy from elysium or the abyss?

The RP justification for outlanders being always enemies with conjurers and A-P's applies perfectly to scion. Even Empire and Tribunal should get more leeway with outlanders here.

This is pretty well in line with my interpretation.

If the Scion cabal ever actually achieved their goal, the next thing I'd probably do is close the Outlander cabal forever, because they'd have failed n their goal and had no remaining hope of ever turning things around.

(Now I kind of want post-apocalyptic Thera.)

Me too!

I have so many good, Dark Sun-esque roles to try. CF is just too stable heh.

Organia style, alternate reality where Scion "succeeds" (notice the quotes...maybe some people little too clever for their own good ;)). Priest powers wouldn't work (the gods are dead, their heads mounted outside the dark citadel of the aliens). No nature powers. No cabal powers except rager powers and scion powers could "backfire" (or be incredibly epic) when used. Stealth skills could be magnified/prog some epic things.

I admit I had a very similar idea.

The distinction is Nightreavers and the rest of Outlander. No ap, conjurer, necro, etc. should be worked with, ever. But, just as Amaranthe let the Sunwarden work with a non-conjuring Conjurer in Fortress, so will the Nightreavers be allowed to work with a non-defiling class/race as long as they aren't conjuring at that time.

For instance:
Outlander ranger nightreaver is hunting paladin tribunal. Ranger attacks tribunal and shapeshifter, without a nightwalker, attacks a tribunal, all is good.

Outlander ranger nightreaver is hunting a fortress paladin at the fortress. Scion conjurer opens a portal, brings a nightwalker along with his devil and elemental. Conjurer needs to die first.

The sunwarden should always attack the scion first. The Harbinger may have a reason to hit the tribunal first, but would be just fine hitting the shapeshifter first.

>The distinction is Nightreavers and the rest of Outlander.
>No ap, conjurer, necro, etc. should be worked with, ever.
>But, just as Amaranthe let the Sunwarden work with a
>non-conjuring Conjurer in Fortress, so will the Nightreavers
>be allowed to work with a non-defiling class/race as long as
>they aren't conjuring at that time.

As Daevryn put it below:

>I always found the "with a Nightwalker" distinction kind of
>silly, to be honest, except for Outlanders whose role is that,
>basically, they're dumber than almost any PC is ever actually
>played.
>
>"Oh, the Nightwalker's not with you this time? Then even
>though you're a Scion, you're probably NOT plotting destroying
>everything in the world I consider natural and additionally
>cavorting with Nightwalkers lots of times that I don't see
>you."

If the shapeshifter is in scion, he's at least on par with the ap/conjurer/necro in terms of defiling. As Valg said below, scion powers are conjuration, by being in scion you're a conjurer in RP terms even if that isn't your class. How is working with a scion who doesn't have a nightwalker different from working with an A-P who's not currently using bloodlust, or a necro who doesn't currently have an army? Why is it 'not ever' by class but 'fine as long as there's no nightwalker' by cabal? It seems contrived.

A lot of people thought that the warden/conjurer relationship was stupid and a bad thing. The correct response is not to allow the same thing to be going on with the reaver branch and an entire cabal of conjurers.

The fact that I'm a player who's never played outlander and you're an immortal of the cabal is not lost on me but it really doesn't seem to add up that any outlander, reaver or otherwise, should be allowed to work together with a defiler, whether that is true because of their class or because of their cabal. Otherwise it's just reduced to a set of powers, and not an RP angle.

Understand that the reavers also hunt those same scion far more than work with them. It is a matter of which is more important at that time. I would rather see Tribunal Paladin take the hit before Scion Shapeshifter given that particular situation.

Kill the trib paladin first, save the necro til later?

Killing either one of those given the situation is fine for a reaver. For a chaotic evil reaver, in almost every scenario, the trib paladin will die first. Mind you, I say almost. If necro is fighting Trib paladin, then the nightreaver will most likely take advantage of trying to kill both of them.

I just don't think that scions should be treated with any greater leniency than other defilers

>I just don't think that scions should be treated with any
>greater leniency than other defilers

It isn't leniency so much as it is priority. I can assure you that if the prey is there, a nightreaver should be hunting it. And when I say prey, I am talking about any of the listed defilers, plus some. The only group that I have seen any leniency towards are non-defiling race/class in Battle. Everybody else is fair game given the opportunity.

"Now, if I saw my reaver working with a conjurer, ap, necro, minotaur or duergar in scion or other, we would have issues. But a shaman, warrior, shapeshifter, transmuter etc. I would have no problems with."

Given what Scions do, research and in general are all about, this makes very little sense to me.

I can see the roleplay side of a Reaver not caring about Scion, maybe not believing they can possibly succeed or just not caring and hating justice more - but I actually can't imagine the other parts of the Tree tolerating it enough to grant them powers from the fetish. Sort of like how I can fathom how a lawful evil guy in Tribunal might look the other way for a bribe and be fully justified that they're really roleplaying yet still get kicked from their cabal because the Spire itself would never tolerate it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I actually thought I had a really good grasp on Outlander beliefs but yeah, Scion is like the worst possible buddies to have. They're the kind of buddies who blatantly want to enslave you in the future lol.

We are talking about a very particular situation. To a reaver, the Tribunal Paladin is worse than the Scion Shapeshifter. The reavers are more about the destruction of civilization to bring about Thar-Eris. It is, without a doubt, short-sided in regards to long term goals. Civilization is the first problem, nature is the second to a reaver. The opposite holds true for a Sunwarden.

A reaver will see that the destruction of civilization is a reason to prevent any long term goal by scion because more people will live like the reavers if that comes to pass. More reavers means less likely opportunity for any other group to gain power.

They just don't seem to be each others number one targets right now. I don't know what has pushed it this way, but the two biggest cabals (outlander and fort) seem to be fighting a lot more right now. So my guess is outlander would rather go after the cabal with 31 people in it vs the cabal with 5 in it. However, if it's just outie and scion around, they are definitely going after each other and they still take each others items and whatnot.

You have to ask yourself several different questions. What was the circumstances? What was going on prior? Who was involved? Were they actually together? The variables are there.. Perception without all the facts, draws conclusions.

Um being summoned out of the altar to a waiting scion shifter and then having both raid for the orb together after... That's pretty straight forward to me.

For ANY reason, EVER! Outlander wants to preserve nature, and kill defilers of nature. Scion is wholly dedicated to giving extra-planar beings nearly free reign (But with themselves in control) of the material realm; extra-planar beings who relish defiling and corrupting nature to the point that even touching the plant life in such areas will plague the one who touched it. They are diametrically opposed. The two cabals (Outlander at the very least) should be at each other's thoats every chance they get.

Instead, I see them fighting side-by-side against other who actually pose less of a threat than the one they're fighting alongside. I was attacked while on duty in Voralian by Gawlar. Ngkeh was nearby and heard the attack, so came to join in. I escaped and ran to Galadon and went into the Spire. So then Gawlar and Ngkeh stood at the Captain. Gawlar summoned me out, while Ngkeh stood there to lash me. The two were very much in each other's pk ranges at the time, and the Spire had neither the Fetish, nor the Scepter.

There are no circumstances that can justify that from a RP standpoint. What it looks very much like is two players who know each other OOCly, who see an easy victim with good gear to be looted, so they teamed up as if they were in the very same cabal. I don't know if there really is an OOC connection or not. That's just my speculation. But the facts of the matter cannot be disputed, and clearly I'm not the only one who's noticed it.

A few years ago, there was too much nicey-nice going on between Empire and Scion. It went on for a while, and then people started getting the smackdown for it. That's what needs to start happening here. Heck, I remember once introducing someone to the quest for the hellhound puppy, not realizing this person was an Outlander applicant. When he saw the funny stuff the hellhound pup did, he thought it was hilarious and started running around everywhere with this hellhound puppy tagging along. We get to Emerald Forest, and suddenly see:

The Imp scowls harshly at <Outlander applicant>.

That was for having a hellhound puppy that certainly isn't defiling anything. But now Outlanders can hang around with scions who bring nightwalkers like a conjurer does, and even Druk'trars who quite literally defile nature, and nothing gets done about it?

if it didn't include active character handles.

And yes, given the backstories to both Outlander and Scion I can't imagine them being anything but diametrically opposed.

The reavers are about destruction of civilization and creation of anarchy. That doesn't make them neccesarily pro nature or anti planar beings.

You're still working on behalf of the Ancients of 'Thar-Eris' (Thera). So even if Tribunal really makes you mad the whole Eternal Night thing might not mesh too well with that.

As bad as cities are eternal annihilation and/or dominance by extra-planar beings probably isn't the lesser of two evils. The branches have different emphasis on different things but evils must not be in favor of Zurcon or the Eternal Night just like goodies aren't allowed to be pro-law while protecting wildlife.

In other words, favoring one thing over the other doesn't mean you get to ignore that other thing entirely and still get to keep your powers.

Not to mention that one of the Ma'rin (Jagad) was also Eshval(?)'s alter-ego at times to mess with Outlanders and others.

I always figured Evil Outlanders would be friends with Scarabs and Scions, depending. They should also be slaughtering goodie outlanders (and certain neutrals) when they don't have anything better to do.

It couldn't be more clear cut that they're #1 enemy for all outlanders.

Not in the what the SCIONS do thing-y, but in the nature of "ALL" Outlanders.

Notice I put ALL in quotation marks.

Here's how I understand Outlander (and since I've never played one, someone can/will probably correct me):

Wardens (Good-Aligned) - Basically like Old Sylvans. Yay Nature! Boo Meanies who destroy it (duergar, dwarves, Trib, Empire, Scion).

(Neutral-Aligned) - Basically you're acting as a fulcrum of sorts to keep the Natural world moving along the Cycle so that the Ancients are appeased/re-awoken. You're there to counter-balance the "Keep all natural stuff alive" vs. "Kill weak natural stuff so that the strong can survive".

Reavers (Evil-Aligned) - Since one of your powers is ignite, think of yourself like a wildfire. Who determines what a wildfire destroys? Chaos (wind, weather conditions, health of the trees in truth but go with me here), that's ####ing what. Your goal is to introduce death and natural selection into the Cycle. To grow new "whatever", old things have to die, and you're good at that ####.


Now, what I meant by Evil Outlanders can be friends with SCION/SCARAB at time is because their "ideals" are roughly on par with each other (depending on the concentration of Zurcon followers in SCION). However (and this was the reason the SCION/OUTLANDER agreement ended before) you, as you put it, are NOT cool with Nightwalkers. Mostly because IMHO, you'd see them as Unnatural competition. Not necessarily BAD but BAD for you in your position as "Recycle-r".

Edited to add: So, as I said, what if I'm a SCION with the RP that my Nightwalkers are more a tool for me than me for them (so to speak). IE, I'm not the biggest fan of them, but #### it they are powerful as ####. So, I'd probably be cool with Evil Outlanders telling me if they ever see me with a Nightwalker they'd kill me, and probably hang out with them without my Nightwalker (I'd rather have someone that can bash than someone that can acid blast, to be honest).

I always found the "with a Nightwalker" distinction kind of silly, to be honest, except for Outlanders whose role is that, basically, they're dumber than almost any PC is ever actually played.

"Oh, the Nightwalker's not with you this time? Then even though you're a Scion, you're probably NOT plotting destroying everything in the world I consider natural and additionally cavorting with Nightwalkers lots of times that I don't see you."

...but it goes to the larger point re: How I see Evil Outlander working.

IE If I see them with a Nightwalker, I could care less about the defilement aspect, I REALLY care that this could be a "better" predator than me and therefore I do not want to see them in Thera because they are an unnatural predator.

Again, I've never played Outlander so I could be totally off-base.

Also, the functionality of the SCION "Destroy everything in the world" kinda loses weight when the Eternal Night hasn't happened over multiple ages. I had a role actually (a priest of You, to be completely honest) that would require going SCION but then destroying the cabal from the inside. Mainly because, don't you think the Ccul'gra are getting pissed that they've made very little progress on their plans? Sure the Abandoned Siege Encampment got written, but it's still closely tied to Maethien. Azuremain is still the same. Sure there are a couple new boats and maybe even the Plane of Shadow has cool things re: Scion but I just don't see it.

PS I'm still contemplating playing a shaman of Daevryn who has an express goal of ending a cabal. Just need to time it right ;)

And at level 20 as you're on your way to pledge to that cabal, all of a sudden you find yourself made Commander of Battle.

As bad as Ghrim may have been to some, I'm sure the fact that my 4th character ever was High Priest (and I used to get lost leading raids to Outlander) caused more consternation :)

PS - The actual joking point of your post is the reason why Thror rules! He made Ghrim!

While I was nightreaver, I was even gently *pushed* to that direction by the powers
that be. It didn't happen at the end due to (mostly) timing factors, but as a
serial outlander player I'd have had no issues with an alliance of that sort, however
ephemeral it may have turned out to be.

At one point, I was even talking with Zhenyen about various bits of CF lore
that were relevant at the time and I felt his character would know about.

That didn't stop me from trying to kill him (or any other scions) whenever I had
the chance, but he definitely wasn't at the top of my list. Probably cause he
was too smart to die to me.

If outlanders can be friends with guys who are determined to bring extraplanar creatures who defile the lands into Thera, then what exactly is outlander RP?

Though really it is just 2 cabals because of how much neutral and goody philosophies blur together in practice.

This is one of the points that makes outlander unique from other cabals with divisions. They work at cross purposes.

nt

Most/all Scion powers are conjuration. This is established both through dogma (theming, echoes, etc.), and mechanics (they all work better for conjurers than other classes). The Nightwalkers find Thar'Eris to be hostile terrain, and do what they can to reshape it more to their liking (defiling terrain, how Portals interact with their surroundings, etc.).

The Nightwalkers that respond to their summons are not there entirely on a voluntary basis, either. They're more or less sent by greater beings, and are at the bottom of their caste system.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

If I'm any other kind of Outlander and I saw another Outlander allying themselves with a Scion, I'd be under serious RP pressure to kill the guy and try to kick him out of the cabal. I really think they should be diametrically opposed in the strictest sense. I just can't see why I'd, as a non-Reaver Outlander, tolerate anyone who was 'Ok' with Scion. It'd be like hanging out with an Imperial only worse.

He got scowled at because the applicant was dragging around a slave..
Lyristeon is quite anti-slavery

I would think that they wouldn't actively defend items or raid together, especially when Nightwalkers are present, but that isn't the case and it seems encouraged by whoever is in charge of the cabals as its happening a lot.

Clearly Destuvius should switch to Outlander. =P

But lyristeon is the same person to busted me for looking at Mek's char and judge him in the hamsah guild with Izuhlzin(not 'immediate' tribunal business) then barred me from vindicator because I would receive eagle staff from Hunsobo(slaughtering of citizens in protected city).

I feel if he wants to play hardline, those are barely questionable compared to this stuff.