Posting this here since I think I was too young for a battlefield post and you can't make new posts in that sub-forum.

---------------------------

Well.... ####. How to begin this. It's gonna be long...

I had the idea to play a 2-headed giant (kind of like Ogre Magi from Dota2) and I had this amazing role/concept all thought out. I wanted to make a solid role after some lackluster characters and had this idea where I was a created being that had no idea why he was created (giving an Immortal a blank canvas to work with). So I decided to ask Baerinika - there's been all kinds of strange combos lately, why not a 2-headed fire giant druid? I was declined, not because of the concept, but because I made an account on those other forum (this was right when that whole #### hit the fan and she said flat out she wouldn't work with someone who goes there - I've made a whole whopping two posts there). So I decide to try and ask Scarabaeus for maybe a frost giant druid... he says it's not possible, it's hard-coded for seasonal races to not allow them outside of their season. I ask him about the fire giant druid, he says Baerinika already said I had to try and get that it in-game.

Right then and there I should have done the same role as a cloud giant druid - but no, I'm stubborn, and I decide to try and force the issue. Challenge accepted.

Now, I really hate shamans. In my 16+ years in this game, I've had one other shaman and I deleted it. The class is boring, I hate the playstyle, and frankly think they're retarded. There's no other fire giant empowerment options though, so I figure I can survive until I get a class change right? Logging into this character was a personal torture. A character, with abysmal intelligence, with skills in the 60s that I don't want to put hundreds of hours into perfecting because it'd all go away on a class change anyways.... and god did I have no idea how important black channels was. At level 30, I'd cast sanctuary (3 hours) and protective shield (4 hours) and be at 46% mana and I'd get maybe 10% sleeping. Seriously, I would have had more fun on a gnome warrior.

Well, I won a rolecontest and was given ventriloquate at 100% and a room description - people seemed to like the character. The problem was I loved RPing but I absolutely hated everything else. The only enjoyable moments of this character is the time spent in the Inn with random heralds screaming about ice cream. I was somewhat level sitting (again, why rank for a class I hate that will hopefully get replaced) and was mainly doing random crap when I logged in. I eventually gave up on wearing gear after I got full-looted fighting a group of four as one person (because who cares about gear on a shaman). So I'd usually login naked, run around and fight some people, die and lose a con, pray, logout.

Then someone gets a dwarf transmuter. I'll be honest that I was raging pretty badly the day I saw that. I wanted to play a sub-optimal combination and despite an amazing idea, and probably half of my adult life spent playing this game, I was declined.... and then someone is handed at level 1, with a crappy description, the insane powerhouse combo of a dwarf transmuter. Words cannot express how much this was a face slap after all the effort I've put into sticking around and helping this game because I made two freaking posts sharing absolutely nothing on another forum.

I tried sticking it out, but really what was the point if I'm finding any reason not to login. The whole "blank canvas" idea for an Immortal was a pure flop... every time I interacted with Arvam (found out it was him in the end... and you give it away Arvam with using smile emoticons in your speech), it was him asking me questions but the idea was I had no idea. So despite an amazing idea and role, and having Arvam as my Immortal which is awesome (I'll be back, Arvam, you're an amazing Imm) and having something I loved to RP, I just ended it.

Lessons learned?

1. Don't do "blank canvas" roles for Imms. They're busy enough as it is and putting more work on them just doesn't seem to pan out (aka Amaranthe and her role contest folks).
2. Don't make a character that "needs" anything from the Immortals. You're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
3. Don't post on the other forums or the Immortals will hold it against you (I should just cave and get a proxy but again.... stubborn).
4. My personal quest to try and not be angry at Baerinika is not going well...

Peace,
Torak

p.s. Oh the names were from watching Archer :) "Lona....Lona.....LONNNNNA!" "What!?" "Danjuh zone!"

You support a site that the imms will see as a problem, and then you are surprised when it bites you in the ass? This is one of the major reasons I restrict certain info on dios. If certain info is shared, the imms are likely to render it valueless. And that stops them doing stuff like shaman revamp.

Quite why you are surprised by this I don't know. You seem to want the advantages of cheating and turn a blind eye to posts suggesting trying to get volunteer staff sacked from their real life jobs, and then expect that to be overlooked?

If you wanted your treatment to be based on your in game char, you should have considered what is best taken out of the game and how the imms would see the issue from their side.

Which all sucks, because I do like your characters, most of the time.

...But where exactly do you think that information came from?

Group A uses admin powers to create excel sheet, distributes to friends. Member of Group B finds it, posts it so that its not secret knowledge anymore.

It's kinda hard to be indignant about it. On the very first day the new system was explained myself and many others pointed out this was the inevitable conclusion and even if you went and changed every single location you'd still be back at square one months later.

ABS should work like martial trance and balanced accordingly. Then we can all stop freaking out about stuff like this and try to focus on just enjoying the game.

...First time I've heard of it (I don't frequent the site you're referring to) but I'd imagine that'd fall into the same category as : "Crazy people post silly ####."

I'd hope no reasonable member of this community would consider anything close to harassing people in their real life about this game. That's a very, very sad and pathetic thing. I don't care if Nep denied all my chars and posted my address in Galadon market square I wouldn't try to go after the guy's job or #### around with his personal life.

We're all friends here hey? We should try to be at least.

>You support a site that the imms will see as a problem, and
>then you are surprised when it bites you in the ass? This is
>one of the major reasons I restrict certain info on dios. If
>certain info is shared, the imms are likely to render it
>valueless. And that stops them doing stuff like shaman
>revamp.

How exactly did I "support" a site when I made two small replies and nothing else? I never pushed for it to be used - all I did was answer someone on where an AP weapon I use a lot is found and I believe told someone you can buy pass door potions in Tir-Talath. That's it. No huge info leaks, nothing.

>
>Quite why you are surprised by this I don't know. You seem to
>want the advantages of cheating and turn a blind eye to posts
>suggesting trying to get volunteer staff sacked from their
>real life jobs, and then expect that to be overlooked?

Actually I made those posts before I knew about the real life harassment, which I still think is ####ed up beyond compare that someone would take it that far.

>If you wanted your treatment to be based on your in game char,
>you should have considered what is best taken out of the game
>and how the imms would see the issue from their side.
>
>Which all sucks, because I do like your characters, most of
>the time.

The fact that things that come directly from Implementors is being posted on that site, I guess sometimes having a "Snowden" isn't so bad.

>
>The fact that things that come directly from Implementors is
>being posted on that site, I guess sometimes having a
>"Snowden" isn't so bad.
>

Uh, like what?

I heard about one thing that supposedly came from Twist but that I'm pretty sure didn't.

So whether or not Twist leaked it, or it was you and Twist jerking off to it, or whatever, the fact is that it existed.

I sincerely doubt you even needed it, as I'd imagine you put in most of the OBS/EXPLORE code so therefore you probably would know where to get the most exp in your travels.

However, there has been enough things posted on that site to confirm what I've known for years. People cheat. Just because they have an IMM tag in front of their name and a solid rep doesn't change that fact.

To me its not about "who". Let's take the imms out of it. Wand lists were floating around since the first day. It's inevitable. It's inescapable. Is rain wet? Yes. Will people share wand lists? Yes.

People routinely share quests too, but most quests are very minor in terms of benefits when contrasted with ABS on a mage.

>
>>
>>The fact that things that come directly from Implementors is
>>being posted on that site, I guess sometimes having a
>>"Snowden" isn't so bad.
>>
>
>Uh, like what?
>
>I heard about one thing that supposedly came from Twist but
>that I'm pretty sure didn't.

The thing credited to have come "from twist" and I think has TMNS upset /calling cheaters is output from the imm history or stat command that shows the observation xps gained by a specific player, location and amount.. This was shared by someone claiming to be a former imm, supposedly given to that immortal by Twist, when he was playing a mortal. I think if players understood a little better what any imm with access to the history commands could see they'd be a little less likely to believe it was an imp doing this. I believe they think this type of info would require shell/code access. When you guys have added commands to track these things in game.

>The thing credited to have come "from twist" and I think has
>TMNS upset /calling cheaters is output from the imm history or
>stat command that shows the observation xps gained by a
>specific player, location and amount.. This was shared by
>someone claiming to be a former imm, supposedly given to that
>immortal by Twist, when he was playing a mortal. I think if
>players understood a little better what any imm with access to
>the history commands could see they'd be a little less likely
>to believe it was an imp doing this. I believe they think this
>type of info would require shell/code access. When you guys
>have added commands to track these things in game.

Yep -- these commands were created to help debug Exploration and Observation XP as Kasty and Valg were first implementing them. They were commands 53+ level imms (which isn't very high level) would have and at that time their usage wasn't logged.

They're now more restricted commands since the Exp/Obs infrastructure is pretty well proven out... but for a long time they weren't.

Tired is probably a better word.

Figured it was one of the new weapons Nep and Valg added a while back (like the spear of Righteousness, the wooden flail from past Arendyl, and like 20 others), but honestly thought it was with that spear of quickness in the hidden area of Talshidar.

Essentially the site was created to do stuff the imms would be upset by.

Its population includes people that would choose to incite attacks that would damage someone's real life.

Personally, I view using the site as supporting it, although having read some of your more recent posts on Dio's I think that in your case it probably isn't true. Nevertheless, it will appear to be the case. The site owners will certainly view a higher traffic as indicating higher support for them.

First, Danjuh the character!

The RP was hilarious and I was a big fan of the heads arguing. I know a lot of folks don't like the more 'out there' backstories and things but I think this one was well done and not out of the realm of CF lore. (Ettins are a thing) You weren't a cyborg cop from Detroit coming to bring the law or anything.

I definitely picked up you did NOT like shaman and I think that, as others have said, was a big mistake. The 'starter' combo you picked was NO fun for you. This carried over to some impatience to get things moving and that came across heavy in how you played. If you'd played EVERYTHING out and been patient would the class change have happened? I dunno but I think there woulda been a better chance if you were able to play the shaman and play the role out and just let it happen instead of push, push, push. I had some plans for 'events' to happen to you that woulda defined the character a bit and asked some questions I had overall that I'd prefer not answered in a role entry. "Why a fire giant druid? Why an evil druid? Why should this guy be evil?" Etc. I apologize I wasn't able to get around to it between some work chaos and our times not meshing in a super awesome way. In the future in this situation I'll try to get another imm to tag in and help out when I can't be around.

I haven't read this whole thread but the advice I'd give if you wanna try a nonstandard combo is make sure the base kit of whatever you're playing, you can enjoy. Basically assume you won't get what you want...and that you'll be able to have fun without it. If it happens? Awesome, but don't plan around it.

Now, onto the whole nonstandard combos as a whole thing.

You mentioned being angry when you saw dwarf transmuter and that it wasn't fair. Oddly? You're right. It isn't fair. CF isn't fair. It's an inherent quality of the game...and it's why CF in my opinion is awesome.

"Wait, WTF. CF isn't fair and that's why it's good? WTF Arv what are you smoking?!"

There's plenty of games out there with tight, rigid rules you can't break. You won't ever see a draenei rogue in WoW. That won't ever happen. Ever. The rules are unbreakable and everyone plays within those rules. There's a lot to be said for games like that and most people want to play those games. You're on complete even footing with everyone and the only thing separating folks is their knowledge of the mechanics of the game and how to play it. The developers focus their efforts on content and maintaining a level of balance between player options.

CF? The rules can be broken. We have our mechanics and our rules...but once in awhile since our admin staff actually is an integral part in a lot of the game? We break those rules. We let dwarf transmuter happen, or neutral necromancer. It's part of the magic of CF. Sometimes crazy #### can happen. Sometimes things that go against the flow of the game happen and it creates a buzz. Those characters stand out. Look at the character challenge. A bunch of people got a chance to play a role, and some of them were non-standard. The aforementioned neutral necro. The goodie druid. A golem dwarf, all kinds of crazy things. There was a huge buzz and honestly despite some pitfalls I'd say the whole thing was a success. Would I do it differently than Amaranthe in the future? Certainly, but it was one of the cooler things I'd seen in the game.

So the other side of the coin is that these rule/mechanic breakers are rare. That means generally? It won't be you that gets that chance. Since that 'chance' is inherently breaking the rules of the game, there are no 'rules' to getting that opportunity. There's no list of guidelines you can follow to get a chance to play a race/align/class combo not allowed by the game. You can have a phenomenal character with a great role and a history of stellar unbreakable roleplay. Every situation the character his you handle in role and never break role for an advantage or go OOC. ...and you might not get the opportunity and a player who does a subjectively 'worse' job does. Why? Maybe the timing worked out better. Maybe it's the nature of the admin who takes up the mantle to play it out. It's any number of things and the very nature of it isn't 'fair'. There isn't an unbiased set of guidelines on how to do this, and likely there won't ever be. We as a staff try to maintain consistency with how we handle this, but even there we don't have "The List" on how to handle this. It's a mix of trying to stay measured, not creating something gamebreaking that ruins everyone else's fun and...just rolling with it.

This isn't fair. This means someone could get a shot at something you wanted and do a worse job of it. That's not fair at all, but it's also part of the magic of CF. It's random. You can't expect anything and when it happens it won't be expected. It's fun playing a game and suddenly you see that character. You wanna check it out, interact with that character. Or maybe you want to kick his/her ass. Something...but it creates a stir. It disrupts the usual flow of things and CF is one of the few games out there where you will see that.

It's because we let the admin/staff dip in and have a direct impact on the game. No other game would remotely ever allow this because human have biases. We try to be unbiased but even when trying that can leak out. There's a certain style of playing that might appeal more to Whiysdan than me. The player with that style might get more love from him than they would me...purely based on they had the right style of character with the right admin watching. It's not fair, but on that same token the fact we allow Whiys and myself to do that kinda stuff at all makes this game unique and special. We can dip in and have direct impact on the course of the game. We want that to be a positive impact overall. We don't want to go in and ruin everyone's fun.

What we can't control is if we do something fun for someone and the fact they are a 'have' and someone else is a 'have not' will always occur. You will always see someone get something you didn't. You might even think they don't deserve it and if we measure up against some perfect system you might even be right. However? That's the game. It's a flawed system and we're rolling with it since it allows us to do things not even thinkable in other games. For better or worse. Are there things we as a staff can do to make sure that it's more 'net good' than 'net bad', absolutely. However we need to strike a balance. If all our rewards are purely cosmetic I think we lose some of the magic of say, the occasional quest form, or powerful quest skill. However it means everyone is more on par with each other. ...which is like every other game in existence. If our rewards are too far in the other direction...they can ruin other player's fun and that isn't cool either. We need to make sure we're growing and learning everytime we do this stuff too. Will we make some mistakes? Absolutely...and when we make mistakes does it impact real players? Yeah. That sucks and it's part of the inherent risk for running the game the way we do...but we'll work on being better about it and won't stop doing it since again. It's what makes this game so different from any other game out there. (Not to say any mistakes were made here, and that Danjuh should have gotten fire giant druid, but speaking generally here in terms of the greater issue of 'how we handle nonstandard roles in CF')

Dwarf transmuter? This probably isn't going to ruin the game for everyone else. It might in the sense of "Hey, that guy got something I didn't!" ...but that's never going to change. Someone will always get something you didn't. On a similar note 'fire giant druid' wouldn't break the game either. However we would need to know "Why is this fire giant a druid when others can't be?" "Why is this druid evil?" or "Why is this fire giant neutral?"

So CF will always have an element of unfairness to it in that we allow the rules to be broken in a way that isn't governed by a set of rules. Dumb luck plays a part, timing, etc. I can wholly understand how this can cause issues, frustration, etc. However it's also one of the unique things about this game which I honestly like. It will happen on occasion and there is not predictable method to making it happen.

As others have advised here at the end of the day when you make a character, the goal should be you should be able to have fun with that character without any 'extras'. If you get them? Gravy. IE: For Danjuh I would have found a way to play a class you actually enjoy, or pick a race that can be a druid. Make sure that even if you don't get the extra special sauce, you can still have a lot of fun, since you won't ever be able to count on the special sauce.

In addition some of the most memorable characters have been regular combos and basic roles just played extremely well. No special sauce, nothing. Just a really, really well played character within the rules. There's a lot you can do within our rules too without having to get something special nobody else has done. A well played dumb giant role? Maybe an extra prissy elf bard? These aren't new ideas. They're tried and true but done well? They can shine even more than the non-standard stuff.

Anyway, all this rambling was basically to say. "I understand the frustration and that you think it wasn't fair, and in a sense, it isn't fair since the rhyme or reason behind these opportunities isn't a strict set of rules. That chaos creates a sort of unfairness and it's what happens when we run things the way we do here."

....which was still a pretty rambling sentence. :P

Seriously, if Imms put half the effort you do into responding to folks and the time interacting directly with mortals...

I wholeheartedly agree that I had a mistake picking a combo I hated at first... I can be patient if I actually enjoy the game, but when I was avoiding logging in and loathing every pk or every time I had to sleep for 6 hours because it took eight casts to get 2 communes done which drained 100% of my mana and will be gone before I actually wake up.... yeah not a winning solution.

And ironically I don't care about a dwarf transmuter directly - it's an absolutely insane combination (insane health/saves, insane melee, insane gear, zero downsides....) but that's ok. As you said, you guys mix it up.

It was actually more to the fact that this was directly after I was denied what I thought was a fair combo....and in the same email told she didn't want to work with someone who "contributed" to another forum. I get why Baerinika is pissed at the forum, but I made two posts and have shared nothing and I get associated with it? There's a reason a lot of people play behind proxies now and I'm beginning to think I need to but I was even screwed from that point because she knew who I was going to play anyways.

So yeah, bad planning on a good character concept, but now back to the drawing board.

Thanks again Arvam and welcome back!

... I played a duergar ranger... I heard people I talked with on skype (That didn't know it was me) go "WTH! That's insane ranger stats!!" etc etc...

Thing is... My duergar ranger had: 21str 22dex and 20 con or something. Either way, I had worse stats than any human ranger. + the weaknesses of a duergar. Only good thing I had was detect hidden. ;)

With that I want to say that most likely, this dwarf transmuter, have had some serious nerfs to it. :) (Or the guy is well known to completely and utterly suck at PK. hehehehe)


(PS: I've never seen, interacted or even heard about the dwarf transmuters RP or PK-abilites.)

nt

... But this was THE best post I have EVER read on this forum. (And I've been around for a while...)

You're right, one of the big reasons I love this game, is because it isn't fair. Rules are not set in stone.

I need to roll something up someday and get some interactions out of you. ;)

...I liked this character a lot. I had fun interacting with and watching you from many different fronts.

I was going to do empowerment and stuff for you, but Arv had already claimed you.

=w=

P.S. I, too, love Acher.

I kept a "Thirteen" mug on me for about 95% of this character's life - it was my lucky mug because after I got it, Arvam answered and empowered me :)

You pretty much have no right to try and be mad at anyone but yourself in this situation. You were told from the get go that you were not going to get handed the custom build you want. You can attempt to be mad at Baer for it, but lets be honest. You have a history that is littered with things that make it so that you aren't exactly what is considered to be "a great contributor." All that aside, *YOU* made the choice to role the build knowing that it was pretty much impossible so you can't be mad at someone else for it.

The fact that someone else got a dwarf transmuter has nothing to do with the fact that you didn't get what you wanted to play. And whether you like it or not, if you want to be rewarded in an OOC manner with a custom combo, then the biggest factor in deciding that is going to be you in a OOC manner. See previous paragraph.

As for your lessons learned:
1) You should have learned that a long time ago. You played that clockwork robot conjurer right? You had a very similar post on that deletion that you were screwed by the imms out of an awesome role that no one wanted to pick up and run with.
2) This is half right. The bigger issue is to not make a character that "needs" immortals after you had already been told it wasn't going to happen.
3) The other forum posting is one piece in a long list of poor choices that have occurred with your name attached to them.
4) Kind of like this whole thing here.... You have the choice to be mad or not. If you choose to be mad, its no ones fault but your own.

If there is going to be a next time, maybe you should just try to play the game for what it is instead of trying to make it into what you want.

...unless it's a player they like or are friends with.

Some things never change :)

A custom race/class combo however is a very OOC thing at the start and turns into an IC thing after. And for that reason, I can only imagine that OOC persona is one of the more heavy rated things in deciding whether or not to let a custom combo fly.

Why that was the death knell for me re: playing CF (well, that and the completely caustic douchebag behavior from everyone involved with CF, from players to IMMs).

CF has plenty of jackasses playing, hard to argue that.
But the proportion is about the same as anywhere else in real life, which is extremely low.

There are plenty of nice people that play CF. I will refer you to Isildur and Homard for people I have never seen be anything but 100% positive/useful on forums and as characters in 5 or so years of playing.

The douches can just sour things beyond what nice players bring that make the game enjoyable at times.

And Iklahn (whoever he is) is a nice and helpful guy most all the time I ever saw, and I saw a lot of him IC when I was around.

People stop playing for whatever reason, just as you may have, but it's hardly fair to attribute caustic douchebaggery to the whole playerbase and staff, of which I consider myself a part even if I have not played in months.

nt

After all, I earned my first 2 Dio's bans ever in the last 12 months I was playing.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. The more you get a look behind both curtains (players and IMM) the less you like what you see, and what it means that you actively contribute to that.

So now I don't play and I feel completely free to speak my mind.

Unfortunately

I can sympathize with this

But I am representative of "not douchebag" players. And you know me, very well at that. We don't all suck here dude. And my ass isn't going anywhere because video games are stupid anymore.

>So I decided to ask Baerinika -
>there's been all kinds of strange combos lately, why not a
>2-headed fire giant druid? I was declined, not because of the
>concept, but because I made an account on those other forum
>(this was right when that whole #### hit the fan and she said
>flat out she wouldn't work with someone who goes there - I've
>made a whole whopping two posts there).

I'm not surprised that's the thing you latched onto, but there's a little more to it than that.

Certainly the concept was run past me and I said I wouldn't okay it.

Removed

Not worth dealing with this, we won't agree.

The email is pretty kind and straight-forward. It's helpful.

The fsv forums are kind of creeper oriented. Useful in some areas, mean spirited in others. I, a general mild mannered player centric player, have been turned off by some forum posts because of their vitriol.

Lastly, fire giant druid would be a rocking build depending on how you went with it. Dwarf muter can be a rocking build too and I suspect some of the limitations on it are purposeful (especially the fact that I think the dwarf is not a goodie).

Fire giant druids gain absolutely nothing comparable of an advantage over a cloud giant. Both have very nice gear options and both have a decently easy vuln to deal with through gear/preps/skills but fire giants have a whole lot more enemies (not necessarily a bad thing). And ironically, I'd rather have had the flight and cloud giant edge for damage over getting ignite and having to cast windwalk (which I think was like 11% of my mana pool).

plus, holy/neg vuln compared to an easily covered cold vuln

A paladin who can spam wrath and other stuff on you because you're evil
-or-
A weapon vulnerability when you're a ####ing druid :P

And cloud giants have some pretty sexy gear too, just not as prominent.

i would never fear paladin wrath as a fire giant druid

also, i did interact with Danjuh and was very impressed. was cool.

Mostly because I wanted to post info for newer players and those that have been kept in the dark for years. I don't play nor do I want to play CF anymore so I could give a flying you-know-what if the IMMs are upset about things such as store-bought preps and hidden gear properties anymore. CF has been unfairly ruled (mostly) but a small cabal of players that anything that upsets the status quo becomes taboo and frightening (not just IMMs for the record, there are players that aren't IMMs that are way worse than any IMM).

Other than that, those forums are like Dio's on crack. The misinfo...le sigh, it makes me sad. Also, the stalking of RayBaer is both creepy and slightly illegal, but nevermind.

Some asshole came along and posted hell stuff anyways, like a god damn moron, and now Scarab will probably never open it again. Way to go whoever did that for getting one of the best areas in the games shut down probably for good. Only a matter of time before some asshole does the same thing with silent info and gets that closed too, even though Daev went against his seasonal only opening and kept it open for people to enjoy. There will be no great areas left soon if people keep it up. Some people are babies and just want everything handed to them, and this is the result. Some mystique to certain areas is what keeps them enjoyable, the hell experience is one of them.

And yeah, there's some real bi polar serial killer type #### over there, I don't blame her for being pissed about it.

I don't expect Torak to take any of this to heart, but maybe someone else will glean something useful for it. Generally speaking on all points:

1) A role/concept for a special character combo that makes me happy justifies why this character is the ONLY felar who learned to be a conjurer. (Or whatever.) It's not just, "Hey here's a wacky character who also happens to be a storm giant necromancer!"

2) Your bar to clear is higher when your character is normally impossible to play for multiple reasons instead of just one. Storm necromancer is something that you can't pick normally both because of race/class and either alignment/class or alignment/race reasons.

3) If you are a player with bad CF karma, the best way to turn staff opinion of you around is to cut the forum/OOC drama and quietly play very good characters. I've seen people turn opinion of them around dramatically in even a single character when they do this. This may be very hard if you tend to want special attention and get upset if you don't get it, or have an inability to give yourself any of the blame for why things don't work out for you.

>I don't expect Torak to take any of this to heart, but maybe
>someone else will glean something useful for it. Generally
>speaking on all points:

Actually I do try and change, you don't need to be a #### about it.

>1) A role/concept for a special character combo that makes me
>happy justifies why this character is the ONLY felar who
>learned to be a conjurer. (Or whatever.) It's not just, "Hey
>here's a wacky character who also happens to be a storm giant
>necromancer!"

I offered to send in the role but your wife said no, flat out, stating she wouldn't work with people who "contribute" to those forums ( a whole two posts! the horror!). Considering I won a role contest, it wasn't terrible.

>2) Your bar to clear is higher when your character is
>normally impossible to play for multiple reasons instead of
>just one. Storm necromancer is something that you can't pick
>normally both because of race/class and either alignment/class
>or alignment/race reasons.

A) It's been done before, this isn't some new precedent. There have been non-neutral druids before. There's also been class changes before of active characters. I've done both of these in my time with CF.
B) Considering I won a role contest and generally people liked the character, I think I did well reaching the bar.

>3) If you are a player with bad CF karma, the best way to
>turn staff opinion of you around is to cut the forum/OOC drama
>and quietly play very good characters. I've seen people turn
>opinion of them around dramatically in even a single character
>when they do this. This may be very hard if you tend to want
>special attention and get upset if you don't get it, or have
>an inability to give yourself any of the blame for why
>things don't work out for you.

I did take actually most of the blame - I put work on Arvam with my "blank slate" concept that backfired and was unfair, I played something I absolutely hated thinking I would get it changed, and I was requiring something to have fun from the Imms. Over the years I have improved and I've had a lot of decent characters recently. The only thing I put blame on other people for is for your wife not giving me a chance since she was mad at other people taking it way too far on the other forums and then literally a week later I see a dwarf transmuter (which is an INSANE combo).

If you want to stop the drama, stop rehashing my "bad CF karma" of events from ten years ago and stop taking small shots at me whenever you get the chance to.

And much like the alcoholic who doesn't admit he has a drinking problem until he gets DT's, you're not going to change him (or the game for that matter).

They'll realize it eventually, when even the most ardent CFers move away from the game and CF is left to 50 people playing themselves in fire giant and storm giant clothing.

People not playing doesn't seem to matter.

Hell, I don't even play anymore, and I was (still am?) mad addicted.

It just isn't worth the effort though.

...is I'm not even sure if the IMMs were the best people in the world and every player I loved came back...

I'd probably still not play. Mother ####ing real life gets us all.

>If you want to stop the drama, stop rehashing my "bad CF
>karma" of events from ten years ago and stop taking small
>shots at me whenever you get the chance to.

You aren't the guy who posts wand locations and crap to the forums anymore, and I will be the first to admit you've gained maturity there, but how different is this whole Danjuh thing from the first time you tried to play a Scarab paladin and it went bad, what, 15 years ago? Very similar drama, different year.

And it is always somebody else's fault.

My Scarab paladin was changed to an anti-paladin by Sacer himself.

You're actually proving me right :P

You say that like there was just one attempt. :P

And there was drama that time too!

Edit to add: I don't think you're a bad person really, just a little emo.

Just remember the sphere Anger one that actually got the class change. I don't remember any others but granted I haven't played a paladin in a long ass time (besides that one marshal to try another weird combo that failed miserably).

Either way, Danjuh and Lona was a failed mistake - would it have gone better if I had gotten the fire druid to start? Probably. Would it have gone better if I played a cloud druid? Definitely. Still annoyed that someone gets a dwarf transmuter after I was declined for mainly creating a login on the other forums (which ironically your wife had to do to see my two posts)? Yup.

Moving on...

People email a surprising number of things. I honestly don't even know what the URL of the place is.

Your (CF Administration) official stance for the "other" forum, well I guess "other" forums, is still that you don't have anything to do with them? Avatars/Imms and the like are not to post on them once they are taken behind the curtain?

You know, I don't know that we've ever talked about changing the policy but the same time I don't think anyone that's around much these days was ever very passionate about it.

And while Dio's has its crazy circlejerk threads here and there most of the time I don't think it is what it was back in the day, either.

Edited to add a few more thoughts:

I think better / more active moderation is part of why it isn't generally what it once was.

I am aware that a handful of imms post here and there and that doesn't bother me either (although it's possible Scarabaeus or Twist or someone else might feel differently, I speak only for myself) -- because I think it reflects the inherent duality of being an imm in a game like this. We're administrators but we're also players and part of the community. It's enough, to me, that A) new imms really take a conscious step back from getting into Dio's slap fights with certain people and B) we have a clean separation from us-with-our-admin-hat-on (here) and anything else.

>I think better / more active moderation is part of why it
>isn't generally what it once was.

Possibly, but it is probably just the considerably reduced playerbase.

Get out of here! BAD GABE! BAD GABE!

So, I can see how that would be an easier sell than a fire giant druid. ^_^

As someone who did a good bit of poking about because of this character, due to role, cabal, etc, I figured I'd give you some of
my perspective.

>>1) A role/concept for a special character combo that makes
>me
>>happy justifies why this character is the ONLY felar who
>>learned to be a conjurer. (Or whatever.) It's not just,
>"Hey
>>here's a wacky character who also happens to be a storm
>giant
>>necromancer!"
>
>I offered to send in the role but your wife said no, flat out,
>stating she wouldn't work with people who "contribute" to
>those forums ( a whole two posts! the horror!). Considering I
>won a role contest, it wasn't terrible.

I asked Raybaer about this character early on, and my understanding
was that you had been told you were not getting an immediately rolled
up different class, but not that it was impossible through roleplay. You seemed to spend a lot of time right off the bat trying to get things you wanted immediately, such as coming to Nythos and other Outlander Imms about empowerment pre-level-10. Fortunately, you did ultimately grasp to go out and prove your worth to Outlander Gods before gaining some of their power.

>>2) Your bar to clear is higher when your character is
>>normally impossible to play for multiple reasons instead of
>>just one. Storm necromancer is something that you can't
>pick
>>normally both because of race/class and either
>alignment/class
>>or alignment/race reasons.
>
>A) It's been done before, this isn't some new precedent. There
>have been non-neutral druids before. There's also been class
>changes before of active characters. I've done both of these
>in my time with CF.

Actually, I'm only aware of one class change ever, personally. I could be wrong those. As far as evil druids go, there have been five that I know of. Only two of which lasted more than ~50 hours as an evil druid, and I was one of them.

Amora's case, you're only really questioning the evil druid aspect, since humans can be any alignment. Ultimately, religion does her in and she goes evil. Follows a religion that IS evil, but also tends to view itself and its work outside the boundaries of alignment.

Baltherias's case, w-elf druid. Race and class restrictions, but is also going from neutral to evil (which is always easier). Similarly betrayer'd, loses all sups, wrath-vuln, ultimately gets MOST druid abilities back. Also, while the character because evil, they also viewed their actions as doing so to enforce the balance of nature.

In your case, you're somewhat going the opposite way. You have a race that cannot be neutral, and wants to be a class that cannot be evil because it's concerned about balance. As far as I ever saw in reading your role, you never showed a reason why this character should be a druid. Evil, nature-loving shaman? Sure. Druid? Not so much. To my reading...and I admit I didn't get to watch the character, I never saw anything that showed evil druid was in ANY way a better fit than nature-loving shaman.

>B) Considering I won a role contest and generally people liked
>the character, I think I did well reaching the bar.

Just for clarity...I actually despised the role. But then, I much favor a reasonable, plausible role over anything resembling "I am a good dark-elf ranger". Not that it was a bad role, or that you didn't play it well, it's just not a role I like.

>>3) If you are a player with bad CF karma, the best way to
>>turn staff opinion of you around is to cut the forum/OOC
>drama
>>and quietly play very good characters. I've seen people
>turn
>>opinion of them around dramatically in even a single
>character
>>when they do this. This may be very hard if you tend to
>want
>>special attention and get upset if you don't get it, or have
>>an inability to give yourself any of the blame for
>why
>>things don't work out for you.
>
>I did take actually most of the blame - I put work on Arvam
>with my "blank slate" concept that backfired and was unfair, I
>played something I absolutely hated thinking I would get it
>changed, and I was requiring something to have fun from the
>Imms. Over the years I have improved and I've had a lot of
>decent characters recently. The only thing I put blame on
>other people for is for your wife not giving me a chance since
>she was mad at other people taking it way too far on the other
>forums and then literally a week later I see a dwarf
>transmuter (which is an INSANE combo).
>
>If you want to stop the drama, stop rehashing my "bad CF
>karma" of events from ten years ago and stop taking small
>shots at me whenever you get the chance to.

>>Lessons learned?

>>1. Don't do "blank canvas" roles for Imms. They're busy enough as it
>> is and putting more work on them just doesn't seem to pan out (aka
>> Amaranthe and her role contest folks).

Honestly, I've tried them myself, and pretty much got pushed back towards "It's your character, you should probably decide". It's more work, and now YOU'RE to blame if stuff goes wrong. Also, in your case, the way you approached "blank slate" half looked like you were scrounging for Immortals. You had no particular patron, yet referenced a LOT of various options. I'd probably suggest leaving out having a variety of SPECIFIC Immortals (even if they're dead) if you're leaving it open.

>>2. Don't make a character that "needs" anything from the Immortals.
>> You're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Well, that's been said time and time again. Empowerment? Fine. You *NEED* to have Fjarn show up and excise the cursed magical stone from your body to make your character enjoyable? Not so much.

>I asked Raybaer about this character early on, and my
>understanding
>was that you had been told you were not getting an immediately
>rolled
>up different class, but not that it was impossible through
>roleplay. You seemed to spend a lot of time right off the bat
>trying to get things you wanted immediately, such as coming to
>Nythos and other Outlander Imms about empowerment
>pre-level-10. Fortunately, you did ultimately grasp to go out
>and prove your worth to Outlander Gods before gaining some of
>their power.

The problem was that I knew with ranking I would regret it, and I did... I honestly would have done better sitting at level 10. A fire giant with 60s in his skill who won't practice is terrible for pking and in general horrendous to play with the huge lack of mana and lost concentrations. I wanted to get the ball rolling early and not rank because I knew I'd start losing con and refuse to practice so it wouldn't go away.

>Actually, I'm only aware of one class change ever, personally.
> I could be wrong those. As far as evil druids go, there have
>been five that I know of. Only two of which lasted more than
>~50 hours as an evil druid, and I was one of them.

I was one of those.

>In your case, you're somewhat going the opposite way. You
>have a race that cannot be neutral, and wants to be a class
>that cannot be evil because it's concerned about balance. As
>far as I ever saw in reading your role, you never showed a
>reason why this character should be a druid. Evil,
>nature-loving shaman? Sure. Druid? Not so much. To my
>reading...and I admit I didn't get to watch the character, I
>never saw anything that showed evil druid was in ANY way a
>better fit than nature-loving shaman.

There has been an evil druid before, as well as a good druid. The problem with the role was that I specifically stated I had no idea why I was created - it was a mini-role contest effort where I was hoping the Immortal would concoct something for me to do.... when it didn't happen I just seemed aimless.

>Just for clarity...I actually despised the role. But then, I
>much favor a reasonable, plausible role over anything
>resembling "I am a good dark-elf ranger". Not that it was a
>bad role, or that you didn't play it well, it's just not a
>role I like.

Well, can't exactly play a 2-headed giant without some strange role... and have yet to see anyone say the didn't like the character. Sorry you didn't like the role but it won a contest so meh.


>Honestly, I've tried them myself, and pretty much got pushed
>back towards "It's your character, you should probably
>decide". It's more work, and now YOU'RE to blame if stuff
>goes wrong. Also, in your case, the way you approached "blank
>slate" half looked like you were scrounging for Immortals.
>You had no particular patron, yet referenced a LOT of various
>options. I'd probably suggest leaving out having a variety of
>SPECIFIC Immortals (even if they're dead) if you're leaving it
>open.

The whole point I thought of the Greenways was that you're following something broad and NOT a specific God. Think of it like the people who believe in all the thousands of gods of everything. I left it broad because I wanted to give whoever would jump in a wide range to work with. I even had an OOC entry where I talked about this specifically (which I wrote about midway through my char's life). And yeah, lesson learned to not leave it open.

>Well, that's been said time and time again. Empowerment?
>Fine. You *NEED* to have Fjarn show up and excise the cursed
>magical stone from your body to make your character enjoyable?
> Not so much.

I thought someone would jump at the opportunity to have a minion for some purpose. Want to release a new area, or be one of the new religions thats coming out, or just want to have someone on a quest to smash flowers? Then I'm your guy. But it died out... just like Amaranthe's role contest. Guess the momentum or drive just isn't there an immland to do anything like this.