First off, I *HEART* Paladins; innate damage reduction, healing, and the RP.

Now I would like to address that there is a serious lack of edges for Champions, Monks, and Avengers. I count 5 for having a shield alone; bladded barrier, shield charge, shield flurry, shield riposte, and striking shield. Avengers have, Crippling defense and Mass Deliverance.

I would love for paladins to get some love there?

As to my Champions:
--Marshall and Phalanx are too costly (30 mana) for how often they fail (which is also way too often no matter the group dynamic), then add to the fact that they last only 10 rounds of combat worth of time. So if they flee, you get hosed. My suggestion would be to make it like the legacy warcry in duration or make it NOT cost mana. I mean it's a physical action for the most part.

--Marshall Forefront should work rescue too... I should be able to rescue some people out of combat, not just take the front. It seems redundant skills.

--Maneuver as a giant with 24 strength fails way to much. Enlarged as a giant I could only reliably marshall a human sized anything All others were a near guaranteed fail and a waste of two rounds of combat.

--Bat I'm guessing was SERIOUSLY toned down from how often it used to lag. Because I don't think I hardly ever got two knocks in the head (causing trip lag) on someone in combat. If it was not toned down that people were honestly bitching about nothing because bat is only a fast attack. Perhaps it's only my perspective but it certainly didn't help me from getting disarmed as many times as I did.

--Fend is a move that I loved and made Champions a tankasaurus. It's an awesome bonus that it can hit (once in a while) for damage too.

-- A champion without a Polearms/Staffs is a dead champion. Poles/staffs that are no disarm are next to zero. I found one halberd that was cursed... The other two I know of you can't request from them because they can't let go, and they don't allow you to uncurse them (thought the make the point of having them a little less). Which also make me wonder why in the world you would have an item like that on a goodie... The only way to get it would be to have the pure of heart edge and that doesn't seem to be easily obtained.


Just my thoughts. Anyone else who has played them can feel free to add to it.

>First off, I *HEART* Paladins; innate damage reduction,
>healing, and the RP.
>
>Now I would like to address that there is a serious lack of
>edges for Champions, Monks, and Avengers. I count 5 for
>having a shield alone; bladded barrier, shield charge, shield
>flurry, shield riposte, and striking shield. Avengers have,
>Crippling defense and Mass Deliverance.
>
>I would love for paladins to get some love there?
>
>As to my Champions:
>--Marshall and Phalanx are too costly (30 mana) for how often
>they fail (which is also way too often no matter the group
>dynamic), then add to the fact that they last only 10 rounds
>of combat worth of time. So if they flee, you get hosed. My
>suggestion would be to make it like the legacy warcry in
>duration or make it NOT cost mana. I mean it's a physical
>action for the most part.
>

Not sure I agree. It is just one of the drawbacks to playing a storm, imho. I played an elf champion btw. Most people don't know to flee, either (although now because of your logs they will, heh).

I do think perhaps they should cost less mana though.

>--Marshall Forefront should work rescue too... I should be
>able to rescue some people out of combat, not just take the
>front. It seems redundant skills.
>

You might be forgetting that people that try to strike around you can get whacked for the attempt.

>--Maneuver as a giant with 24 strength fails way to much.

Think it is a dex skill maybe. For my elf, it was not far off 100% reliable. Maybe 75%.

>Enlarged as a giant I could only reliably marshall a human
>sized anything All others were a near guaranteed fail and a
>waste of two rounds of combat.
>

Not sure I get what you're on about this. As an elf, I didn't notice having issues with anything in particular.

>--Bat I'm guessing was SERIOUSLY toned down from how often it
>used to lag. Because I don't think I hardly ever got two
>knocks in the head (causing trip lag) on someone in combat.
>If it was not toned down that people were honestly bitching
>about nothing because bat is only a fast attack. Perhaps it's
>only my perspective but it certainly didn't help me from
>getting disarmed as many times as I did.
>

Didn't work much for my elf either.

Also, I think if you fight a champion again as a disarming class, you might change your view of them. I know when I played a champion, I thought the anti-disarm needed to be stronger. Now having gone against them again, I've changed my mind on that, and think it is about right.

>--Fend is a move that I loved and made Champions a
>tankasaurus. It's an awesome bonus that it can hit (once in a
>while) for damage too.
>

For my elf, I think it hit for damage every time btw.

>-- A champion without a Polearms/Staffs is a dead champion.

Agreed.

>Poles/staffs that are no disarm are next to zero. I found one
>halberd that was cursed... The other two I know of you can't
>request from them because they can't let go, and they don't
>allow you to uncurse them (thought the make the point of
>having them a little less).

Yeah, I had the staff of justice with mine after some imperial killed the guildguard. Then I lost it about 10 minutes later in a pk and could never get it again.

> Which also make me wonder why in
>the world you would have an item like that on a goodie... The
>only way to get it would be to have the pure of heart edge and
>that doesn't seem to be easily obtained.
>

Why should every item be attainable by a goodie?

>
>Just my thoughts. Anyone else who has played them can feel
>free to add to it.
>
>

Fwiw, what I noticed about Toktok relative to my elf is that he seemed to get a lot more benefit from the aggressive marshal than I ever did. Also, I noticed you seemed way better with staff than you did with polearm. Kind of wierd, I thought, since you'd expect a giant to be better with a polearm.

>You might be forgetting that people that try to strike around
>you can get whacked for the attempt.

Didn't see this happen. :-(


>Why should every item be attainable by a goodie?


Because evil and neutral don't have any gear unattainable. If the can kill for they can have it... Good can't kill good... that is why we have request.
>>
>>
>
>Fwiw, what I noticed about Toktok relative to my elf is that
>he seemed to get a lot more benefit from the aggressive
>marshal than I ever did. Also, I noticed you seemed way
>better with staff than you did with polearm. Kind of wierd, I
>thought, since you'd expect a giant to be better with a
>polearm.

I think this is because classes without staff really got the hurt from it. (Shaman, Orc, Anti-Paladin, Necro, etc.) Which I fought a lot. Polearm was much more defensive than staff as I observed in PVE.

>--Maneuver as a giant with 24 strength fails way to much.
>Enlarged as a giant I could only reliably marshall a human
>sized anything All others were a near guaranteed fail and a
>waste of two rounds of combat.

Much like drive and similar skills, its success rate under the best conditions is far from foolproof. Different targets/circumstances can be easier and harder to maneuver, too.

>--Bat I'm guessing was SERIOUSLY toned down from how often it
>used to lag. Because I don't think I hardly ever got two
>knocks in the head (causing trip lag) on someone in combat.
>If it was not toned down that people were honestly bitching
>about nothing because bat is only a fast attack. Perhaps it's
>only my perspective but it certainly didn't help me from
>getting disarmed as many times as I did.

Hasn't been touched. People just like to complain.

But if I remember correctly it's more of a DEX skill than a STR skill.

As I said earlier, got a bad problem of "I must play underpowered combos"... and I believe I gave almost the exact same set of feedback at least two years ago.

Once I tried the champion, I really didn't seem much reason to go a Champion. Shield and two-handed are just miles above the options here (including gear, abilities, combat presence, etc).

Even with all the drawbacks, I had lots of fun with the champion spec.

The gear one is a major issue. I'd love to see a skill (NOT EDGE) added similar to fist of titans for champs. Considering there's still weaponbreak and etc I don't see it as being overpowered - you can always adjust the success rate and make it strength based (to prevent synergizing with elves too much).