Any chance of adding a cabal for evil mages that don't really fit in to the scion way? Scion can still do what they do but how about another cabal for evil mages or just for mages all together. Kind of like outlander where they all have their own branches but good/neutral/evil are all together. There just doesn't seem like much is available to an evil Mage. Specific enemies would be battle, scion and the empire as hey don't respect those of the black sect. Killing those of the black sect and making them drop the empire would be of the utmost priority.

I can come up with more if you like but I think others would see it as a great idea. An evil cabal of mages that allow more than 10 members and actually having more than one awake at a particular time. I think the cabal would be great.

This idea is more than simply a new cabal for evil mages. It would entail getting rid of the anti-paladin class (somewhat) and offering up its abilities plus more in a new fashion.

I imagine this 'cabal' as a mix of cabal/becoming because once you join, your old class is consumed and your character is remade. It would be limited to melee classes (warriors, thieves, assassins, rangers) as the basis of the cabal besides what is outlined below is that these are people who want more power (magic) and are willing to deal with demons to get it.

Your 'Remaking' would depend on a variety of factors including your initial class, race, whether you were chaotic evil, orderly evil, or neutral evil, how many PKs you had before attempting to be Remade, etc.

In a nutshell for background, the Elder Demons of Thera are making a bid for power versus the Gods of Thera. Members of this cabal would thus be at war with anything reeking of divinity (paladins, healers, shaman, druids, etc. as well as of course lightwalkers in general) in addition since these aren't 'true' mages but merely men and women who damned themselves to gain access to magical power they are capable of having a envy/love/hate relationship with true magi.

To become part of this cabal you would have to seek out one of the twelve fiends of Coctyus in order to pledge. However each demon is attuned to different things and offers different powers and some will kill you outright if they find you unworthy. Example: You may have a demon that rules the aspect of 'Shadows' (thieves, assassins, rangers) and your fire giant warrior comes to pledge with that demon and it backstabs you and kills you immediately.

Once Remade you retain a few of the abilities of your former class but the vast majority of them are consumed and depending on the Demon you are granted new abilities more suited to being a Demon Seed.

One of the Demons would in effect be the Anti-Paladin class (likely the demon that likes warriors) which would strip the warrior of everything except what anti-paladins get now with a change I believe would be nice - the demon would forge you a demonic weapon to hold souls which otherwise grows in power same as always. To rid the weapon of souls however I would make it so it has to specifically be given to a Paladin and I would add a 'Purge' power to the Paladin class which allows them to take a demonic weapon and purge it of all its souls. Demonic weapons would not be able to be sacrificed until they are purged. This id hope would add a slight extra chance for the AP to get his weapon back. Destroying it would be a bit harder but not overly so.

As for the rest - I imagine powers like 'shadowstep' for Remade thieves/assassins which would allow them at night to have limited 'gate' if the target is inside a building at night the thief/assassin can step into one shadow and out next to a shadow near the target while remaining hidden/sneaking...lots of lag though I'd imagine and it would have failure risks like occasionally stepping out of the wrong shadow somewhere (bad teleport) or whatever happens to someone who has a bad tesseract.

I could come up with powers all day so I'll leave the rest up to your imaginations.

Tribunal allows them all.
Scion allows all of them.
Outlander allows evil mages outside of necro's, a-ps and conjurers.
And empire technically allows them all I suppose, though only two can advance in in the sect.

To me that's plenty of options for evil mages, and I don't see a pressing need to give them another option, when scion is basically the same thing you are saying, it just has member caps. (I don't think member caps are really much of an issue either.) Scion is capped for a few reasons, and the powers they get are nice enough that a cap is justified, or else every evil mage would go scion. And if you want in, if your RP shines, you'll get into the cabal.

A shakeup of cabals would be interesting, but might require a lot of work, and I don't think just adding another cabal is needed as things stand now, especially a mage only one that mirrors scion to a large degree. A mage only cabal I don't see a pressing need for, unless some other cabal structures changed.

Battle has plenty of enemies as it is already :)

The guy who needs a cabal is the chaotic neutral conjurer, he basically only has herald.

>The guy who needs a cabal is the chaotic neutral conjurer, he
>basically only has herald.

It never occured to me before that a chaotic neutral conjurer has no way of being a real part of cabal wars. How many other character types is t hat true for?

All goodies can go fort far as I know.
All evils can go scion far as I know.

For neutrals
All orderlies can go trib far as I know.
All neutral can go nexus far as I kow.
All chaotic can go outlander, unless they are a hunted class.
For hunted classes, all melee types can go battle.
The only hunted/disliked mage class to outlanders that can be neutral would be a conjurer.

That leaves chaotic neutral conjurers as the sole uncaballable build. (outside of herald)
At least, that I can think of, no matter the race/class.

Chaotic neutral minotaur shaman
Orc beserker

n/t

nt

You may not like it, but it's got raiding, defending and cabal chat, which is most of what other cabals have.

>And if you want in, if your RP shines, you'll get into the cabal.

This is not true. While there may be exceptions, the majority have to be skilled at their class and also be able to perform in terms of cabalwar dynamics and pk or else they either won't get in or they'll get drummed out. At the least, I think it's appropriate to say that this has been the case under many mortal leaders/supervising imms combinations in the past.

Edited to add:

In terms of RP shining, this is often difficult for someone who hasn't been an "in person" and has difficulty with particular cabal specific cultural assumptions. It's perfectly possible to age die a maran or a nexun mage, for example, and have very little idea how to get into Scion.

The thing about Scion is that there's very little incentive to want to be in Scion unless you play certain classes.

Example, there's a high incentive to have a shaman in Scion - you get to fight ragers and ragers get owned by shamans.

There's a very low incentive to be a melee type, a support type (bard/transmuter/healer) etc unless Scion is particularly active.

Scion is attractive to "solo badass" mage types and their powers, while good, don't mean much unless you can maximize them beyond the power itself (example - despoil + barrier).

Otherwise, you're the most hated cabal with the "least relevant" powers and the fewest members. Scion powers don't give you anything defensively other than despoil and to a limited extent portal, whereas other cabal powers tend to be better on that front. If you're not full ABS or your class doesn't outclass ragers - it's kinda like why bother?

Edited to add : I'll add that I don't really feel like Scion having an 'elitist' outlook is a good thing for the game. The powers aren't *THAT* good. They're worse for many builds than Empire powers and Scion has more inherent enemies just due to philosophy.

I can help but assume you have no idea how to maximize playing an evil mage character. Outside of true melee chars(thieves, warrior, rangers) scion powers are the best in the game outside of the Emperor getting the full range of sect leader powers.

I don't look at it as "stock Scion vs stock Imperial" because it's not like getting a leader position is that hard (it's probably hardest as Scion lol, other than *maybe* Empire). If it is a priority for you, it's achievable. My Scion is going to have to face the Emperor, he's going to have to face Outlander Sun Wardens and Harbingers, he's going to have to face full Maran leaders, etc. Being better than a bloodoath is a 'who cares' sort of argument. I'm going to be facing those people and 99% of the time I'm going to be doing it solo, with powers that don't hand me free kills like insect or deathblow does.

Sorry dude, but neither of those skills gives free kills. Insects are only a problem for me if there is a gang waiting for me. Sometimes, insects are what gets me killed, but that is not very often. I'd guess on perhaps 5-10 times in my entire CF career, but those fights were fights I knew I most likely wouldn't come out of alive.

DBs, sure, they do give you "free kills" from time to time. But almost only against unprepared ignorant players. Sure, every now and then they win a close fight for you, but so does every other cabal power as well.

I'd say that once you've had all these powers and seen the use of them from both sides, come back and complain. (Well, I just wrote something I thought I'd never write on these forums... I've always been alright with complaining about things you haven't played yourself Before, but I do think it would lend you a bit more insight.)

It's easy to complain about mechanics when a skilled player stomps you down, when perhaps a bunch of other people wouldn't stomp you down with the same powers.

I'll shut up now, if you want to think as Scions being underpowered, then I'll keep playing Scions and love my Powers.

(Sorry if this came across as more aggressive than I meant it to. I blame ESL. :) )

You say I need to "learn CF" then proceed to agree with me. It's nice that you love Scion, try to get over yourself for 30 seconds to understand what I'm saying and politely disagree if you feel like you need to. I've had just about all these powers except for Justiciar and Emperor so chill out, it's cool that we disagree.

It never ceases to amaze me how nasty people in this game are when you don't agree with them.

Ooh well, we certainly do disagree.

It's just sad that every disagreement in this game invariables turns into some elitist "You need to learn how to play" sort of argument. I know the game, put in my 10+ years like everyone else. I get what leads to kills, what leads to survival and what have situational usefulness. If you just take two abilities in a vacuum like centurions and volley - I'd rather take centurions. I've had them before, they're a good power to have. It's not an "I win" button but neither is volley. Still, they give a capability (removing flee options, constricting or slowing movement) that my class doesn't have which in some situations is much better than mitigating a cast ability at the start of combat - namely because volley doesn't work 100% of the time so it's a roll of the dice I often can't afford to take anyway. We can disagree on that, if you want, but nothing I'm saying is *wrong* so its not like I need to be re-educated.

More importantly, if your standpoint is that you need to be elite to get the most out of being a Scion, aren't you just proving our points? I don't think they're good enough to warrant being 'an elite' (again, my opinion). Ehren guard powers were epic...they required some elite RP - carrot and stick. I never fought a scion and thought 'Damn, their powers are ridiculous.' I've certainly felt that way getting hit by healing curse though.

I think the two of you have a disconnect because you tend to play different kinds of characters and seek different kinds of fights.

I've had... Let's see the following Scion chars:

Maynak (Not sure of the name) lvl 40 scion shifter (this was my third CF char EVER and my first mage ever.) My RP was so so, I SUCKED at PKing and cabal wars. Had no clue about anything. :)

Deiah lvl 51 h-drow healer (My first healer ever and first hero scion. Did fairly well, not a PK-char but did get a few kills. Interesting thigs with divination for a healer.

Zubei lvl 51 arial assassin, first assassin, third scion, first leader char. Got advisor. Just hated the class so deleted. Powers weren't great for melee.

K...something lvl 51 firegiant warrior, did okay I think. Powers aren't great for melee.

Fjodir lvl 51 human AP, had a decently big weapon around 150 charges, joined late, around 250-300 hours I think. This is were I noticed how INSANE the scion Powers are.

Zameida lvl 51 human shifter, water/off dolphin/rhino. Got Advisor, kicked A LOT of ass. Made great use of having almost ALWAYS +700-1000hps on a stick extra as well as volley, insane nightwalkers, kickass portals and... Sight of the damned (This Power is INSANELY good.) Sure I left out a few things. hehe

Anyway, save for being Emperor, warmaster or Outlander leader, there are NO cabal that has as powerful Powers PK-wise as a REGULAR scion.

And I do think that it IS good for the game. The game needs powerhouses and Scion bring powerhouses to the game quite often.

You said that transmuters weren't good in Scion unless it was Active... Are you on crack?!?! Have you never faced the Scion transmuters? There has been quite a few insanely tough trannies in Scion. There has been a few decent bards as well, but nothing like Empire ofc, the Powers are meant for mages.

"Anyway, save for being Emperor, warmaster or Outlander leader, there are NO cabal that has as powerful Powers PK-wise as a REGULAR scion. "

So, here I'll disagree.

Rager berserkers, Emperor, Warmaster (and normal blades), High Priest (and normal priests), Outlander leaders (sometimes ocassionally normal Outlanders too...chameleon is sick), Tribunal leaders (including Vindicator/Justiciar) - I consider all of those better than a 'stock scions' power. Keep in mind, not all classes get mage powers and the mage powers aren't very good (in exchange for being solo most of the time). See these other cabals have powers but they also have bigger numbers and that matters a lot.

It's *EASY* to get a leadership position for instance in Outlanders. It's just not a particularly challenging thing. Far less challenging than making a solo transmuter who is a badass and given the choice, I'd take insect over anything a Scion gets as a badass transmuter. If conjurer could join Outlander I'd make an Outlander conjurer in a heartbeat.

I agree with you here. I just wish more of a variety for mages. Scion powers are good but most of the time you don't have them. You never have your item. I just think it would be a nice change to have a Mage cabal. An actual cabal where people log on to play and you're not by yourself. The imms haven't answered so I'm assuming they don't like the idea.

Remember, we're talking mages here...

For a warrior/thief/assassin etc, almost every cabal has better stock Powers than Scion.

Do you know what sight of the damned does? Do you know how much milage you can get out of despoil?

Sure, you will be alone a lot and you will need to be able to handle that. Sometimes you just can't retrieve your item, but I've never experienced that as a big problem.

Comparing with villagers just won't cut it. Villagers DO get THE best Powers in the game BUT they also get the biggest drawbacks from joining a cabal than anyone. So, they're out of the equation.

For a mage, Scion gets insane Powers. I just do not get how you can't understand this. Camo is nothing in comparison.

However, insects and emperor Powers, vindicator, justiciar and provost Powers are better. (Forgot about tribs Before.)

Play just about ANY mage in Scion and have ABS and you'll see. There won't be much to fear in your PK-range save for BIG gangs.

>For a mage, Scion gets insane Powers. I just do not get how
>you can't understand this. Camo is nothing in comparison.


Cham on a class that can't hide is amazing. If you're patient (unlike me) it can get you surprise kills. A necro that gets a sleep on an unprepped opponent is in a great place. A conjie that can engage then run and chamo and let his servitors work can ruin a lot of people's days. Invokers benefit less (but still substantially) and for a muter Cham is pretty lackluster. But it also confers a huge amount of defense. Being able to hide is an almost unparalleled survival ability. If you want to not die, it gives you the ability to not die pretty reliably.

Despoil is a great power that will make you win against groups and can make you able to fight a tough opponent, but it doesn't offer kiling power the way cham does.

you can stay undectable to virtually the entire playerbase for ever basically between duo and chamo. That is significant for a stealth class.

Additionally it lets you overcome one of the biggest drawbacks of duo (not being able to eat/drink/zap) so you can prep up a room or 2 away from your prey and just jump them instead of having to step an area away. You would be surprised how many opportunities are lost from having to do that.

And I would still take despoil for raw killing power. You would not have to worry as much about getting the drop on people, since you can just go kick in their front door and kill them there instead when they are fighting with their two friends and assume they have the advantage. I watched many a scion conjie come in and tear through the village without even trying, even if it was like 3/4 to 1.

Chameleon to me just makes people play like most rangers, which is sitting around camping and playing ultra defensive. Sort of boring to me, and I played very defense oriented characters. There have been plenty of outlanders who do nothing more than sit chameleoned at the tree in groups hoping to catch some poor bastard trying to retrieve, instead of going out and hunting people.

"And I would still take despoil for raw killing power."

This is the part I don't understand. Do you guys spam bash on someone who isn't taking enough damage from you? 800 hp shouldn't kill anyone without a lot combined with it. If a conjurer kills you and uses despoil...despoil isn't what killed you. In fact, unless you get under 800 hp left...it didn't even do much/anything for you.

Teleport + heal is the bane of most mage types and scion powers don't do anything to help with that, so the guys who were running away from you before are still running away from you with your scion powers and that's the rub (for me at least), that the way I play they just weren't doing much for me. For me the only powers that are good are ones that help me evade dying or land kills. Chamo and insects - great powers. Bloody shackles + vigilance - great powers. Healing curse + auto-trip + centurions - great powers. Deathblow + spellbane - great powers. Despoil + nightwalker - very meh.

Nightwalker is the type of skill that makes people leave a fight you were winning one-two rounds earlier. How much it really changes the outcome of a fight is debatable. As a conjurer it will give you a good chance of retrieving (which you have already) but you're still going to have trouble defending since you can't always time your servitors just perfectly and with luck being what it is, they're usually leaving right as the gang of villagers attack.

>If a
>conjurer kills you and uses despoil...despoil isn't what
>killed you. In fact, unless you get under 800 hp left...it
>didn't even do much/anything for you.

Yes and no. The full answer to this is too long for my attention span at the moment, but consider that (to give the easiest example) a big HP cushion lets you take a more offensive posture.

As a Scion conjurer, I have killed people at their cabal guardians when (sans despoil), it would have been a very risky move as likely to kill me as them. I've charged groups of three that I knew could lag me out entirely with a demon/elemental/nightwalker, knowing that at least one of them would be dead or running before I died because of that extra HP. Etc.

Generally speaking the big advantage of despoil in terms of racking up kills is that it lets you pick fights that would otherwise be bad ideas and kill someone. This is hard for you to see because you have more of a winning 1 on 1 fights and sealing the kill mindset; to play a Scion mage, you have to have a "I'm going to attack a group of 5, kill one because 5 guys are overconfident where 1 wouldn't be, and clear out before I die" mindset.

>Nightwalker is the type of skill that makes people leave a
>fight you were winning one-two rounds earlier. How much it
>really changes the outcome of a fight is debatable. As a
>conjurer it will give you a good chance of retrieving (which
>you have already)

Well, note that the nightwalker goes home as soon as the Scepter is downed. So this only works if you're a bit proactive.

I actually don't think nightwalker is awesome as a conjurer, although I really like it as a power for summoners. Summoning a guy (e.g., someone you slept and messed up, Battle, etc.) that you were fighting and who is now running for it and having the nightwalker jump on him where if it was just you, he'd keep spamming west and be ten rooms away before your next command is a big help.

Honestly I've never had much barrier luck since the change. I did moderately well with my one (one!) mage that found his barrier wand in a reasonably easy to get location but the whole 'attack 5 people' sorta thing was never really going to happen/work for me.

I'm not sure what I was on when I said makes retrieving easier, must have been some strong crack.

Anywho, I'll generally agree that Scion powers tend to make someone who is strong already stronger - decked out invoker, lich, Scion conjie with 1000hp+ set already, etc. I'm usually too wreckless to make it that far. I'm more of the guy who is gunning someone down with ice worm gear by doing some sneaky stuff. Maybe that's the issue. For all the forums say I'm too conservative the *reality* is I'm way too reckless compared to most CF'ers - aka the guy who is bashing when both me and my enemy are under 10%.

>Honestly I've never had much barrier luck since the change.
>I did moderately well with my one (one!) mage that found his
>barrier wand in a reasonably easy to get location but the
>whole 'attack 5 people' sorta thing was never really going to
>happen/work for me.

Devils cast barrier!

Devil conjurer may be the world's wand-laziest thing.

I tried not to use devils much. When I was around, defenders were the shizzy in village, so a devil wasn't going to be lethal per se anyway. Good always had ways to deal with rot (healing sleep for instance).

It's not that it can't be done but it relies on a certain "stupid factor" in your enemies. If there are five of them, for instance, they can probably two round your devil.

This is less true with demons but YMMV. Maybe I should try a lawful evil instead of a chaotic evil next time around.

Evil conjies really shine in certain types of fights but other fights...well...you can eat your own con faster than the enemy if you're not doing things right. One way to not do things right is to be chaotic, with a meh sorta devil, trying to get him to barrier you only to not get it until you're under 35% and then have the devil turn on you anyway.

It's just simpler to get the wand, get a demon and do what you gotta do. My 2 cents.

If you have a barbed/ice devil no one is two rounding your devil. Not even a group of five.

I remember with my decked decked decked and super prepped up defiance paladin and two warriors decided to try to jump Charine's ice devil and getting our #### packed so fast and hard that we all regretted it before the end of the first round.

I wouldn't base all your opinions on Charine ;). They're definitely mortal - though not always very easy to fight. I've seen ragers solo them though, it depends on the quality of the call.

Which twist and nep got tired of overseeing because most of its member seemed more interested in PKing than doing mastery magey stuff.

More cabals seems like just a way to further dilute things. There are plenty of cabals w 1 or 2 ppl around besides scion now, it just rotates around a bit.

>lvl 40 scion shifter (this was my third CF char EVER and my first mage ever.) My RP was so so, I SUCKED at PKing and cabal wars. Had no clue about anything. :)

How did you get into scion then?
How did you stay in scion??

I know when I'm a leader it's what I try to do.

Perks shouldn't just be for the person who knows the secret code word and can do the CF handshake.

While the first part of your premise (re: Classes that can do well in Scion and how that interacts with powers/incentives) is correct, I'm not exactly sure why you'd state that SCION powers are not that good.

There is a reason that the cabal is limited to a certain number of people. And it's not for roleplaying reasons. As far as I know no other cabal has membership limitations unless it's a cap towards an upper limit.

But yeah, if I'm playing a mage, unless I get Emperor powers (or can be a conjurer with insect swarm...yeah right) I wouldn't want any other power in the game but Scion power (maybe maybe bond...but that is reliant on having a good ally).

As you said, Despoil synergizes well with barrier, effectively doubling your health. Nightwalker is sweet, have a summonable pet that can do attacks that maledict and burst damage? Sign me up. Beckon Druk'tar is invaluable since one of your main groups of enemies are people that can camoflauge. Forsaken Portal is seriously one of the best and coolest powers in the game, especially when your Nightwalkers are stealing the #### out of everything in everyone's pockets. Sight of the Damned is situationally really useful, as is Divination. And volley is pimp. Seriously. It has led to two of the biggest AP weapons ever being sac'd.

Yeah, I think volley is really underrated.

If I'm playing a Scion mage, there's a huge list of good attacks (sleep, rot, wither, forget) that are now much more likely to harm the person who has them than me, unless I'm in a situation where volley can't work. (for example I don't have the Scepter)

Volley is very situational and consensual, which means while it has the capacity to be very good, lots of things have to line up for that situation to happen. If you're facing a nasty necromancer or shaman constantly, you're glad to have it. If Fort or Village or to a lesser extent Outlander are in power, you may forget you even have it.

Beckon druk'thar is very similar, in this regard. Forsaken portal is very similar, in this regard. Eyes of the damned...you get the idea.

I'm ok with the powers but the combination of those powers and the cabal RP restrictions seem excessive, to me. I'd take worse powers but the addition of 3-4 consistent allies. An example is - would you rather have volley to prevent getting slept (and maybe sleep the guy trying to sleep you?) or a healer on CB that you can have gate to you if you *do* get slept? Empire/Fort/etc are often going to have the latter.


Edited to add:
Now, one thing that might change my mind is if the mentality of Scion is no longer the same. You used to get beat down/chastised for failing to successfully defend the Archmage against attackers, back when I last played. That hassle just was not worth it to me - here I am solo trying to take on 3 ragers at the archmage and I'm going to get verbally smacked down for not succeeding? No thanks. Maybe it's no longer that way.

I'd take
>worse powers but the addition of 3-4 consistent allies. An
>example is - would you rather have volley to prevent getting
>slept (and maybe sleep the guy trying to sleep you?) or a
>healer on CB that you can have gate to you if you *do* get
>slept?

Honestly? I'd rather have volley. I can count on volley working most of the time -- I can't count on a cabal mate healer in Fort or Empire to be half that reliable.

Don't forget the handful of powers I listed for volley is just a small subset of big items -- it's useful for a lot more than that, but it's a more decided shutdown against spells/powers/communes/etc. that *have* to be used when you're not already fighting.

Volleying Insect Swarm may still be my personal favorite.

THAT was epic. (I felt real sorry for Gzurweeg however...)

And would it effect the Paladin if it did?
It would be hilarious for a paladin to dispel himself and die almost instantly in his own lag from the commune because of it.

Yes I believe it can be but it doesn't affect goodies so it has null affect on the paladin.

nt

nt

If I remember correctly, it can be volleyed but due to the alignments of the effective casters at that point it's not especially effective.

Still, the fact that a volleyed light of heaven doesn't nuke the Scion's spells is better than a sharp stick in the eye.

>Now, one thing that might change my mind is if the mentality
>of Scion is no longer the same. You used to get beat
>down/chastised for failing to successfully defend the Archmage
>against attackers, back when I last played.

As a bard Advisor, I routinely got my ass kicked by all sorts of people in all sorts of situations, and never got chastized. I got one semi-snide imm comment, which I found justified and chuckleworthy.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=4&topic_id=116151&mesg_id=116153&page=