Time to play a arial or wood-elf sword spec, I don't see any other reason to play any other warrior race...well I'll add in Duergar. Its not even comparable how well dex races out shine the others. evade and parry all might be the reason why. I still think high dex races should not be able to get parry all, but that's just me. Almost seems bugged how well evade and parry all go hand and hand lol.

Or I could be just crazy and talking out of my ass.

Flame on!

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=24360&mesg_id=24371&page=

Point is, it isn't anything new/less than 5 years old.

So right now sword spec is very popular (in the mid ranks I have seen literally 3 warriors in the last month that were not). And shifter/warrior are always the most prevalent classes in the game.

The result is that right now the landscape of CF is very heavy on raw melee defense. So if you want to win raw melee as a sword spec you are going to be highly gear dependent. This is because everyone is playing rock, to beat a rock with a rock you need to be a bigger rock. This kind of environment is going to play much better to vets since they have a player skill advantage.


If you are not a high end pkiller and want to compete you need to roll up "paper". Where you get a class advantage to balance against the skill advantage.

Sword is strong at pure melee and direct damage, but weak at lag and changing the melee rate of enemies. This gives you 2 primary build tactics to beat them,

1.) high DR, high direct damage (invoker, paladin, conjurer, shaman, muter)
2.) high maldiction/disarm (dagger,mace,axe, shaman, paladin, bard, necro, AP)
3.) better melee/high lag. (Giant polearm with bash legacy)

Often the ones that were giving me trouble were very decked. That does not mean that STR based warriors are worse than dex ones. The only problem I have is that the only option for a STR based warrior is having parry anything to hope it goes off. Because it is pretty rare for evade to go off on a race that is not 20 or higher dex. It still happens just really rarely. It almost happens too often on Dex based. It might need some tweaking but not major tweaking.

The most common name thrown around in this discussion is Ekaerok. And yeah, he was tough. He was incredibly difficult to kill, but he also had a hard time killing you if you didn't want him to.

Removing Ekaerok from the equation though, can you present some other high-dex sword warriors from recently that were so difficult to fight? I can't really think of any.

The guy had insects and entwine.... he could have killed a ton of people, but he'd do random stuff like dirt kick for no reason. Daevryn's comment about "sword specs can't lag" doesn't really matter if you can't flee for whatever reason because of entwine/insects.

He did not have entwine....

If he used insects, I normally got away since I started running as soon as they landed and kept moving until they lifted. He was much mor likely to get me alone just cranialling plus maces just hit me more (I actually thought he had whirlwind). If it was a group fight w him, insects were bad news but cranial was still the way to go.

Overall, the worst solo fight for Kraldinor was Ierelaine or whatever who was mace spear and I am pretty sure was stsf/whirlind, but rot worked if I could ever land it.

It's two issues. It's dex characters, but it is also swords.

A giant sword spec can still be a powerhouse today. Right now. Swords are amazingly powerful on everyone. Bash+Bash+Flurry while riding on Parry+Flourtine+Riposte is incredibly strong.

Show me a giant non-sword spec that has been scary in a long time.

Bonus points if they weren't a Rager and didn't have easy access to resistance to make up for the lack of tanking. No permas.

Sure, swords can't reliably lag. But their passive offense and defense have shown to more than make up for it. Maybe they don't kill Daevryn, but they're killing almost everyone else. What weapon spec kills you Daevryn?

Dex characters are really good for just about any weapon spec. I won't begin to guess why. I don't know how the code works. I do know they can be almost impossible for a variety of different classes to hit with passive melee. I don't know if it is class skills, spec skills, edges, legacies, or the combination.

Hutto, the Sleepy

>Sure, swords can't reliably lag. But their passive offense and
>defense have shown to more than make up for it.

It depends a lot on what you want to do.

If you're totally uninterested in PK, sword is pretty much king of the specs. No lag and no utility? Who cares!

High STR flurry machine can definitely kill people. DEX sword is more typically in that "I can make people run away, but they usually don't die" mold.

>Maybe they
>don't kill Daevryn, but they're killing almost everyone else.
>What weapon spec kills you Daevryn?

Mostly mace and axe.

>>Sure, swords can't reliably lag. But their passive offense and
>>defense have shown to more than make up for it.
>
>It depends a lot on what you want to do.
>
>If you're totally uninterested in PK, sword is pretty much
>king of the specs. No lag and no utility? Who cares!

I disagree. I'd guess Twist would disagree too, and The_Arcane, and the Russian crew, and SMUG, and... well just about every serious PKer I can think of. Including whoever played Aulrathdien ;P

I'm not saying swords are a "I win" button. I am saying if you had taken sword away from any sword specs and given them another spec, they'd have done worse with that character.


>High STR flurry machine can definitely kill people. DEX sword
>is more typically in that "I can make people run away, but
>they usually don't die" mold.

Sure beats the "I can make people stay, but if they can tank it usually kills me" mold.

There have been a lot of warrior powerhouses. I have a hard time naming ones that weren't sword. And of those I have an even harder time thinking of ones that weren't dex or Battle.

Hutto, the Sleepy

>Sure beats the "I can make people stay, but if they can tank
>it usually kills me" mold.

It depends on what you want. Some people would prefer to finish a character 100-0, other people would be happier with something like 400-100. Hour for hour I at least can rack up more kills with just about any spec other than sword -- doubly true if I care about killing higher-skilled players.

Dex sword mostly kills people at hero the way invoker does -- take on groups (because you have riposte and can tank) and pick off the one guy who overcommits, or mow down people who lack the acumen to realize they're losing.

This, obviously, is all in my experience.

It's a really, really good build (and so is invoker, for that matter) for playing the kind of character that can ignore some kinds of opponents and just raid and take their item anyway -- which does lend a hell of a powerhouse aura to a character.

Edit: 10+ year old characters aren't really a fair comparison because the game has changed a lot -- for example, deathblow riposte and full power deathblow parting blow used to be things.

In that (while still a completely valid tactic), ganging the #### out of someone is more difficult than ever (well, in most situations).

Like, the best way to kill an invoker is to have another invoker give you shields and you bash him down.

However, getting/keeping that set of pimp gear is easier than ever. So it's hard as #### to kill them 1 v 1 and ALSO hard as #### to kill them 3(or more) v 1.

I have actually talked to Elhe about this and the scariest gang is two competant people (crafted + tony are the new Arolin/Palan I guess) who are determined to kill you.

Basically, there are going to be relatively unkillable characters in today's CF. People need to make peace with that, and a lot of the exasperation about the new flavor of the month will dissipate.

Fair enough about the old characters. I haven't played much in the past 9 years so I have to go with what I knew. I could start going through the list of sword specs over the last few years that did extremely well, but it is hard to know how they fought, who was on their side, who they faced, and how they played it. For more modern ones there is Ekaerok, Arratok, Jebaral, and so on. These guys seem interested in pk. I don't have the numbers, but sword seems by far the most popular spec for serious pkers.

Again, I'm not saying it is impossible to get kills with the other specs, but I think almost every sword spec would have done worse with any other spec.

As for what people want, I'd rather go 50-50 against cabal leaders and strong pkers in head-to-head fights.

Sure, if you want to run around and try to catch people in bad situations, lag is great for keeping them around long enough for them to die. Bash or trip work for this too, and you might do more damage with swords than maces or axes. Riposte is crazy.

If it is balanced around what you can do with it, then it is balanced around one person. Nobody else can do what you can do in CF.

Hutto, the Sleepy

...there are *way* better swords than other weapons and better gear suited for it. You want psuedo deathblow from gloves, a ton of no-disarms, 5 pound non-metal weapons, and a light option to hit every single vulnerability? Go sword.

frost giant axe/??? (I can't even remember.) outlander.

Don't think the PBF was published for some reason... Odd.

(n/t)

N/T

Apparently it's still the flavor of the month; it's good at some things, others, not so much. High dex mace spec (especially in a gang) for whatever reason always seems to have my number but otherwise high dex warriors never really kill me.

Parry Anything isn't all that great unless you're a sword spec, with most viable sword spec races probably seeing similar rates of success there.

Then just out of curiosity, what was a scary giant warrior recently? I didn't play for a long time before Noviask (was out during your elf villager phase) but I just didn't feel it was nearly as bad as its gotten with chars like Ekaerok. It didn't help either it was basically impossible to land a spell on him. That fire giant warrior and Ujesken were halfway decent but *nothing* like Ekaerok. To also flip your statement back, I'd be more scared of a high dex mace char over a strength mace char.

Half the problem I had though was that stupid lashing belt - the fact that you guys made a belt that lashes a ton.... what kinda balance is that :P Next we'll have shoulderpads that bash..

Who was the last 3 spec fire giant with insect call? I never fought Ekaerok but I'm inclined to think that combo is less good without insect and 3 specs.

In all seriousness though, it's getting a big crazy how strong dexy warriors are getting - especially with all this new gear/edges/etc.

I can't think of one "badass/scary" giant compared to the powerhouse dex chars (Ekaerok comes to mind recently, damn was he a beast for Noviask).

Honestly the game has always favored giants so to me this is a welcome change.

Being a low strength character has so many disadvantages, in terms of how many weapons you can carry, in terms of how easy you are to disarm, makes parry worse, less preps you can carry - plus you don't get the size advantages or resist advantages a giant gets...Plus they often have poor HP and giant vulns to go with it. And with low strength comes so many other disadvantages too, like being immediately behind on damage, being normal sized you're almost always easier to lag, so many skills that do damage rely on strength (flurry, drum, just to name a couple).

Add in that you're "double hit" by the strength malediction, because it hurts your dodge often as much as dex loss would...

Anyway, I feel like it's much better balanced now than it ever was (though I reserve the right to whine when I have to fight these guys at hero lol).

Dexy builds can't bash and the usually don't rely on pure lag, which means you get to try things. If I'm going to be completely crushed in a PK I'd rather get a couple commands in during the fight.

-Usually you're a dumb race, so you don't save against spells as well, you don't learn the harder skills nearly as fast, and you've usually got a weakness to mental related stuff.
-I'm assuming with "giant vulns" you mean iron/mithril, which can be mitigated by never being hit. Fire vuln is easier to prep for, but fireball isn't something you can avoid.
-With a real low dexterity, dexterity loss can be huge as they can make it so you can't even repick up your weapon if you are disarmed
-Strength helping disarm I don't think is true at all. I disarmed a lot with Noviask and I had 17 strength. Not sure what you're talking about here.
-Most amazing weapons now weigh nothing - seriously, unless you're abusing trapping, there's little reason that your main weapon is over 10 pounds as they do exist. Also there is an absolute ton of +str gear out there for dexy chars. I had like +12 on Noviask at all times, not including bloodlust.
-Carrying less preps isn't true at all. Low dexterity, means you can't carry as many limited preps which is what really matters. I could care less about carrying 50 more flight potions, versus holding 4 more aura potions.
-Size advantages go both ways. Saying you've got a disadvantage by being small or medium, could be said the same for a giant. Either side can reduce/enlarge to nullify effects and actually reducing helps most dexterous characters.
-Low HP also isn't true as they can usually spend trains to even it out (gnome warriors can beat dwarf warriors) and a lot of the uber gear now has crazy health and +stats.... and a lot of them can't be worn by giants.
-Being behind on damage isn't true either - dexterity characters hit a lot more than strength characters because of better defenses. Look at the recent logs of Ujesken against that dexy guy, he hit the pincer damage and one normal hit in like 9 rounds.
-Being normal sized has very little to do with "easier to lag" unless you're talking about bashing - and there are plenty of ways to lag anyone reliably, regardless of size.
-And really I don't think overall you're accounting for how absolutely insane evade can be.

I can pull out logs, but I'm telling you it doesn't feel like this is balanced anymore. I absolutely loathed characters like Ekaerok and yet would gladly fight a giant like that V-something fire giant or Ujesken. Seriously, it was a night and day difference. If you're really not fighting these dex powerhouses than honestly you can't comment as you need to experience it... I cannot think of *one* scary giant in awhile and yet I can list a handful of dex chars I'd rather not ever fight.

Skill learning is annoying but not going to do anything to you in combat. Int doesn't affect all saves unless that has been changed while I was gone...it only affected spell level from anti-paladins not how well you saved. High int won't keep you from getting blinded for instance.

Casting is less of an issue when you can lag or out damage people...for instance entwine + flurry > fireball.

Strength helps to not drop items due to strength loss...it doesn't 'resist disarm' or anything and having to gear for both +str and +dex is harder naturally than +str.

Preps have weight...enlarge roots are like 1lb each and maximizing dodge means you need to be carrying around 50% max weight.

Anyway, my memory is of eating 800hp flurries from Twist's fire warrior. That's just not going to happen when you're fighting a dex spec.

>Skill learning is annoying but not going to do anything to
>you in combat. Int doesn't affect all saves unless that has
>been changed while I was gone...it only affected spell level
>from anti-paladins not how well you saved. High int won't
>keep you from getting blinded for instance.

Int and Wis actually do have a minor affect on how well you make spell saves. (Although you can compensate in other ways, such as wearing more saves.)

I don't remember exactly when that change was introduced, but I do remember that Cador did it if that gives you a sense of time frame. Probably ~1997-1998.

Dex races get some very nice edges, especially wood-elves, felars and elves. Landing spells is much harder against them than giants.

That's good to know. It's not something I've ever noticed before.

Have you considered putting that into the helpfiles for int and wis? ;)