"Since the spirit of a site like that ruins the purpose of exploration areas (which is to reward players that explore the environment most effectively/creatively), my gut reaction is that now I'll probably want to have a new quest system in place before opening Plane of Shadow and Inferno. That will, unfortunately, create a huge delay that would otherwise have been unnecessary. "

The thing I don't understand about this is that (to my knowledge) there was no leak that caused the current closing of the Inferno (year(s?)) prior to this other forum being put online. Obviously you don't have to close an area to revamp it, so what gives?

Why is the reward for exploration so often things that give a distinct PK advantage? Doesn't the explorer type enjoy the act of exploring (even if it is to try and find things that a walk-through misses) even if it doesn't convey a PK advantage?

Do you (Sacer) really think that after a decade in existence, the plot twist at the end of your wildly popular novel should really still be considered a secret and no one should ever post a spoiler? Doesn't that seem a bit crazy?

It seems to me that for the entire history of CF there has been a social contract that everyone agreed to not share (too much) information (of the wrong type) publicly (and ignore the private sharing) and now that contract has been totally broken. Why not try something else for a change? People have asked for it for years, and whether it is the majority or not, why not give it a try... Just the other day I was *really* wishing for a list of everything sold in shops in Thera and their stats... Why isn't that information available?

The thing I don't understand about this is that (to my knowledge) there was no leak that caused the current closing of the Inferno (year(s?)) prior to this other forum being put online.

The two are unrelated, so there is no relationship that needs understanding.

Obviously you don't have to close an area to revamp it, so what gives?

Closing it made the most sense to me; I didn't want half-modified work or incomplete quest code breaking the MUD or stranding players in the area. Other options were problematic for different reasons.

Do you (Sacer) really think that after a decade in existence, the plot twist at the end of your wildly popular novel should really still be considered a secret and no one should ever post a spoiler?

Your analogy misses the mark on two levels. First, I don't consider a walk-through to be equivalent to the plot twist at the end of the novel; it is, instead, the Cliff's Notes summary of the novel in its entirety. That is a significant distinction. Second, my response to the question by Edmund Brown was that in light of producing a new set of quests for Inferno I would rather come up with an entirely different paradigm if the new quests are now fodder for such a spoiler site.

Doesn't that seem a bit crazy?

Not really. Quests are by their very nature a test of a character; they provide an opportunity to reward a character for accomplishing something on their own or in a group. A test is not much of a test if the answer sheet is floating around campus. In that scenario, you have both adventurers and parrots being rewarded equally, which doesn't seem fair to me.

So, perhaps it is time to think up a shift in the quest paradigm. Professors change exam questions to prevent the above scenario. It's not crazy to do something similar.

...now that contract has been totally broken. Why not try something else for a change?

That's exactly what I proposed: "now I'll probably want to have a new quest system in place before opening Plane of Shadow and Inferno."

Just the other day I was *really* wishing for a list of everything sold in shops in Thera and their stats... Why isn't that information available?

We're a little restricted right now since we don't have direct access to the website or wiki. After the server move, I hope to see more helpful information start being published on the website, the wiki and through helps. Obviously that will be somewhat dependent on staff or (in the case of the wiki) player contribution.

>Your analogy misses the mark on two levels. First, I don't
>consider a walk-through to be equivalent to the plot twist at
>the end of the novel; it is, instead, the Cliff's Notes
>summary of the novel in its entirety. That is a significant
>distinction. Second, my response to the question by Edmund
>Brown was that in light of producing a new set of quests
>for Inferno I would rather come up with an entirely
>different paradigm if the new quests are now fodder for such a
>spoiler site.

This is fair. Is it also fair to say that for some people reading Dante's Inferno* is unappealing and it isn't wrong of them to want a Cliff's Notes version if it can be made available? Does it harm Dante or the people who have read the real version or somehow lessen their experience?

(*) I tried to read it thinking maybe it would lend some insight into progressing in your Inferno and failed. It is one of 2 works of literature which I started and then put down with no intention of ever picking back up.

You have conflated the two word pictures. In the analogy I was making between exams and quests, I don't think two people taking an exam--one with an answer sheet and one without--should be equally rewarded for their answers. So perhaps we need a better system for questing characters, such that the impact of a walkthrough is either negated or made negligible.

In the word picture you referred back to, if someone is uninterested in reading Inferno then they should probably find something more enjoyable to read.

Both of these posts of yours are very well reasoned.

However, for the sake of argument, I struggle with the arbitrary limits you're placing on the audience in your last scenario.

If someone is interested in Inferno they should be free to explore that interest in any manner that satisfies them, so long as it does not harm others' enjoyment/interest. Reading every word of Inferno is not the only way to glean value from it, nor is it necessarily the best depending on what it is exactly he wishes to gain from the experience. It is only the best method if it is the method that best scratches his personal intellectual itch.

The last scenario didn't really apply directly to the line of reasoning, so I probably shouldn't have even made the comment.

If we can generate a better way of designing quests (a way that minimizes the impact of a walk-through), then this should become a non-issue.

a

If someone legitimately takes the exam in one of their classes, they now have the advantage of that exam for every class they take. That in itself is a huge boon to that person and if some of that knowledge imparts some long term advantage, that person is now skewing the curve for everyone else taking classes with him even those who are at an inherent disadvantage because they are new to the school.

Also, although I'm not playing currently and I've had my differences with you in the past, I'm glad you've inherited CF and I'm hopeful it will move in the right direction. Good luck sir.

-thinnie

If someone legitimately takes the exam in one of their classes...

I would hope that passing an exam does impart some kind of advantage, or taking the exam would not be worth the effort. Within the life of the character, that should have some kind of positive impact. Since we have a more complex system here in which the player is the ultimate agent and the character is the intermediate agent, that advantage may instead be parted to the player (who then is rewarded or given advantage for passing the exam). I'm generally ok with that, though I would like to see more quests developed that have multiple possible solutions.

I'm hopeful it will move in the right direction.

Me too!

I think this has a lot less to do with the players and a lot more to do with the artist. Player's enjoy the #### out of your work, in all ways they take it in. Refusing to let them see your latest masterpieces is like a teacher punishing the whole class of thirty because of two students who might cheat. You are doing this to punish an alternative forum that has yet to publish a single hell secret. It makes me a sad panda.

Delaying the re-opening is preventative rather than punitive. In that manner it has to do with the artist wanting to invest creative time wisely. It does waste the time of both staff and players, but, as was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the contract has been broken. So we deal with it the best we can.

To return to your analogy, I don't think we have any means of tracking how many students are capable of cheating.

I suppose but even with Hell as it was, having traveled it a few times with people who probably knew it better than almost anyone, it wasn't like we just strolled through it by any means. Not only that but even after 15+ years with walkthroughs existing for a long time there were still many unexplored bits and many things undefeated. It's designed in such a way already I think that knowledge can maybe guide you to the right places it still takes a lot of skill and the right group combination to get anything accomplished(which is even harder these days with a smaller player pool). Also in the past I think it's pretty common knowledge that it's wasn't just the players abusing this knowledge. I know we won't change your mind on this, but I think you are overestimating the impact of these things on not only the reaping of rewards from them, but definitely the enjoyment of them.

Ultimately the end result may indeed be that secret stuff just can't stay secret.

But that has consequences, too; I mean, there's a reason huge explore areas aren't really written anymore -- the effort that goes into crafting them isn't worth the short time that the people who are into that kind of thing will get to enjoy it before someone throws a tantrum.

This is also why, for example, the idea of a Shadow cabal has been essentially dead for a very long time.

And to me that's too bad, but maybe that's the game people want.

For an easy example, people are generally good about the Prison. At least I haven't heard about it being leaked. And I've had the pleasure to explore it throughout three characters, albeit without much of a success since when I say the correct answer to a puzzle it does diddly squat. Tried yelling, whispering, et al, doing things like the answer, nothing. It still intrigues me and I'll be enjoying that area for some time yet.

So I don't think there's much of a danger of opening, say, Shadow Plane. I find that as the mud userbase matured, the risk of the walkthroughs of Silent (which I never even got to see) being posted are minimized. With the Silent being currently open, do you have any qualms? If so, why? Obviously a lot of work went in and obviously a LOT of people don't know what to do inside. And as far as I heard, it's not a walk in the park even if you know what you're doing.

And please open Hell. Even if people know how to navigate it, what's the harm? It's still an incredibly hard area to get through, plus more fun items will circulate. Maybe take the Talisman of Slay (name imaginary) out or downgrade it, but don't see the real downside. Plus, I've heard that not even all of it was ever explored. And I've never been personally despite playing for a long long time. Just never had an evil/neutral hero at the time of a trip.

\.

.

Let's kill. Kill the log board. Butcher. We can each have a steak.

.

Though if I were him I would have just said "#### posting on the forums". That's just me though.

Long after people knew things about Ktengs or the Loch Grynmear I spent hours over a couple days each learning them inside out and enjoyed it. I don't think that other people knowing how they work completely ruins it for explorers like me. I've briefly seen a couple bits and pieces on the Inferno and been to the first level many times exploring it and have only manage a few paces in the second which left me very much wanting to go back and explore more. It may seem to you that people discussing it in groups ruins the area for all, but I don't think that's really the case. Those of us who like to explore can enjoy it just as well before or after others have explored it.

I don't care about spoilers - they're often orientated towards getting 'power' out of the area.

I think people do that because they're frustrated about not being able to explore/figure out the puzzles.

To me, the reward is figuring them out. In their entirety. And being able to use that to my advantage because the power gamers will often miss a lot along the way.

Classic example: Ktengs walkthroughs. I haven ever looked at one, and I still have never completed it myself. Yet I know every item in that area and some of the stuff gives me a huge advantage. Others just farm it for the quest and never return.

The story is actually pretty damn cool and whenever someone asks me to help them in game I give them a tour and explain what happened and why it happened. My first time I chose poorly and ended up quite dead! :P

I think it's really a shame that they are hidden away with how cool they are and how much effort is put into them. It really feels like a couple kids splashing in the pool, having fun their way, so the owner of the pool just kicks everyone out because of it so no one enjoys it and it just sits there unused. I don't really understand that reasoning.

Maybe you should look at it more like the kids are being kicked out 'cause 2 kids way down at the end are crapping in the pool, none of the other kids have noticed yet...
Just sayin' quit ####ting in the pool and we might get to use it.
*wink*

Crapping in the pool would be people hacking the server to break the code of the area. People just knowing the area isn't affecting ME or others who just want to explore the amazing areas. Especially since if we are ignorant of or choose not to see those walkthroughs, it simply doesn't affect us.

but it shows your direction of thinking. The point is that the man who owns the pool might be seeing something you a kid playing in it can't. Accept that the owner of the pool might be kicking you out for good cause, or accept you aren't the owner of the pool and are there by his/her grace, and either find a new pool or cope with waiting until it is re-opened.

Especially since if we are ignorant of or choose not to see those walkthroughs, it simply doesn't affect us.

How do you see that being in the control of an individual player for exploration areas that require group effort? There is no IC mechanism for saying, "Hey, anyone in this party read the walk-through? Because if you have, you're out--we're here to explore on our own."

If you make an area, ANY area in CF, people are going to enjoy it until the end of CF, no matter what. That's true no matter what, whether it's aexplore or not, whether people discuss the contents or not.

I'm not sure how adding any area to CF, no matter how lovingly crafted, could elicit any other response than "being enjoyed by the entire playerbase until the end of CF". What additional criterion do you need to make it "worth it"? A shadowboxing vine?

Just because there are maps of Galadon and there's nothing really special hidden in it (except that one thing) doesn't mean I hate being there on a nearly daily basis.

Imagine if everytime M. Night Shyamalan made a movie that Anderson Cooper got on CNN and told people that Bruce Willis was a ghost, that Sam Jackson was behind it all, etc.

How long do you think he's going to want to keep making movies like that?

Often when someone creates something they would prefer if it was experienced in a certain way (check out the suggested eating instructions for certain molecular gastronomic dishes.)

The reason that a creator wants their creation to be experienced a certain way is because they designed it with the end-user's maximum enjoyment in mind.

Once M. Night sees his plot twists on the news, or once Grant Achatz sees diners just mushing all the ingredients together on the plate they might begin to wonder what the point is of putting so much effort into a creation if this is the end result.

CF doesn't happen in a vacuum. You need to think about how the people writing the areas feel about the work they've done, not just about how you can most quickly farm said area for preps, gold, or XP.

I don't believe that I'm the only one who sees this.

I see that argument.

As an artist, I don't subscribe to it - it's completely irresponsible. Either you like to make work or you don't - take responsibility for yourself and don't blame it on your audience. It's a given that your audience as a broad category is a bunch of nose-picking assholes with skidmarks who wouldn't know good art from a hole in the ground from bad art. They're GOING to #### on your work, accidentally and purposefully, almost without a doubt, and there's literally nothing you can do about it except remember that how they experience your work is completely independent from you and anything you need to think about.

But also I'd reference Yhorian's post: freedom of information for areas like Grynmear and Ysigrath and the mansion of twilight hasn't lessened my enjoyment of those areas. It hasn't destroyed my appreciation for any author's work. And it hasn't allowed me to engineer any kind of efficient farming system (nor has it created a desire in me to do). Beyond simply being inaccurate, implying that people want secrecy dispelled so they can farm better is cynical and mean. What free information HAS done for me (and for players of everyMMOever) is it's removed a lot of roadblocks when otherwise I would have just given up sooner or later.

Seeing unmitigated wikis in play in everyMMOever: these things level out the playing field and improve player experience overall. It makes EVERYONE more competent at the game, and expands the middle sphere of competence.

Maybe some of the author's artistic nuance - intentions for your experience or whatever - get shed along the way. But also, maybe a greater understanding of the author's work is unlocked with just a little exterior explanation, like a critique in a magazine. You take down a roadblock - you have access now to the whole rest of the road.

I'd argue that lots of times it's a moot point to argue over since there is already freedom of information in CF. The trick is only being able to gain access to it and I tend to think the people who just want wikis/faqs and walkthroughs to areas are players who only want the info to be able to use it to gain advantages and maximize their characters. The want to know what gives obs/exp, and where to get useful items. They want the rewards only so to speak, without the effort, because other players already have it and so they have an alleged advantage. I'll use the mines of Zakiim for example- it's not a hard place to figure out with a little bit of effort, and having access to Windfang is nice I suppose, but hardly creates an inequity among the PB for those that know how to do it and those that don't.

I thought the point of CF, as a multiplayer game, was to encourage interaction between players, not stifle it, and in a way not having freely available walkthroughs fosters that among the PB. Hell would be a lot less interesting if I knew to get through it I just needed to follow someone else's roadmap. I played a char that did nothing but try to explore there, and I never made it past the 4th circle. But I got that far, in large part, due to help from others when I got stuck trying to figure things out. Sure, I burned lots of con, but more importantly, I genuinely had fun, as did the people I dragged down there with me. And all the knowledge I gained, I was all too happy to share with anyone who wanted to know it.

The information about almost every single area does exist already and there are certain players that possess it who will share it, but sharing IC and posting it to forums are different things and I much prefer the former to the latter personally. I can basically get a walk through to any area by playing the game, fostering relationships IC with other characters, and eventually finding a char who is willing to help me.

IC I have had people guide me and tell me things about numerous areas, which to me is far more preferrable than just going to a wiki page that gives maps/tips and the like. I've also pretty much walked newbies through quests and areas, giving them the amount of detail they seem interested in. If a player just wants obs/exp xp, I'll usually give them a few places to go. If they want to explore, I'll take my time with them. If they're engaged in a quest, I'll point them in a direction without telling them the answer. For all the times I have done any of this, no Imm has ever sent me to ROTD and said "Stop sharing information!"

I think they want the information available through a method that encourages people to "play" CF as it was intended, through the fresh eyes of your char and their RP and not as the player behind the char. I'm not playing CF as the player with the handle associated to Lasentia (well I was at one point since that was a char of mine) I'm playing as whatever character I happen to be at the time. Not having posted information about every little thing that exists in CF, to me, helps a little bit to reinforce that idea in players that they should be the char they play and not that the character should be the player they are.

I carry over all my game knowledge from each char, but much as it helps me, it also allows me to pass that information along to any who ask, and when someone asks something I don't know, well, I just got an opportunity to go learn something new with that person maybe. My knowledge, or lack thereof, has thereby fostered RP with another player. If CF has shown anything, nobody, and I truly believe nobody, not even Daev, knows every single thing there is to know in CF. I recall Twist saying something long ago. "Nobody has ever figured out everything in the elven vaults that there is to figure out." I don't know if that is still true, but I think it is, because every now and again, I find something new there, even after the 50th time through it. Yeah, I can farm a few nice items there, but the fact that there is more to it to be discovered makes me enjoy going through it everytime, so that I still read room descriptions and such that I have read 50 times before.

Or, you could hand me a wiki, I could read it, know where everything is in an area and what it does and how to get to it. Then I'd only go there when I have a need of something from it to help my char. I'd map out every keyword for obs xp, go to every room that grants exp xp, run through it once, and then only return if I wanted a piece of gear from there. I don't think that was ever the playstyle people envisioned for the people that play CF. Min/Maxing games are boring as hell.

I think you make a few valid points here.
<3 Lasentia

Zephon

I think CF is a game of interactions regardless of how people play it, but if some people choose to play the min/max character, it shouldn't hurt CF dramatically as long as the playerbase is large enough to accommodate those people. If you choose to not min/max and go about exploring as you normally have, I would definitely ignore these min/max types. Your fun should not be predicated on their lust for shinies.

I think now CF wants to gently nudge people into being explorers (obs xp) and roleplay (role xp) type chars, which is great, but in the process, we've lost certain player types that are just out there for the simple, unadulterated adrenaline rush of PK. They're really not interested in exploring or writing out a role or interacting with Imms. They want the min/max of the game and don't want to be at a large disadvantage because of their playing style and for this reason probably won't play CF as it is.

With that playing style, are they losing some of what CF has to offer? Yes, no doubt about it. Will they come around to the system even if there weren't any perks involved? Probably. The PK aspect has its lulls. Do those characters add value to CF? Beyond griefers, every player on the who list adds value to the game in my opinion.

That last statement is what it boils down to. If you open up CF to several different archetypes and put them on a level playing field, then the playerbase may increase which is a win-win situation for everyone.

-thinnie

now, if you want to argue about certain people taking advantage of some areas (nepenthe and ST, gareth and yzekon, etc) then by all means. but respect the area, the author, and the intent behind the creativity.

It's funny that you would bring up that movie, since it was made in 1999 and since some of the earliest Event Board posts from qhcf are these:

| 30 - 45 | Valguarnera - Kteng's Laboratory - Soren 05/24/2001 04:52AM
| 30 - 51 | Arvam - Mines of Zakiim - Soren 05/24/2001 04:51AM

You are talking about the same time frame. I can't believe you would ruin Sixth Sense for those people who haven't had the joy of experiencing it yet the way that M. Night intended. You bastard!

See how ridiculous that is?

I certainly hope you enjoy the CF-Lite that you're pleading for.

..why would you allow someone else's power gaminess to affect your own character's fun? If you love exploring, then you should by all means continue to explore.

-thinnie

This particular power gaming reduces opportunities for interactions IC.

Ok, let me ask this, if you could double the playerbase knowing that initially people would be powergamey in nature and not be as keen to interact? Would you be ok with it knowing that you'd have more player to player contact and that the players would ultimately want to flesh out their characters more so they could be more involved in quests/cabal politics?

-thinnie

But I think that's a many-layered pipe dream.

But that doesn't change that I like to explore a new area. Especially if I can explore it on my own, at my own pace. Period.

That someone else has figure it out does not affect how I play. Nor my want to explore it.

>Ultimately the end result may indeed be that secret stuff
>just can't stay secret.

This was already true. It just came with the price of feeling dirty because you were part of a cheat-ring or something. From the very first explore/secret area to now there has always been people who knew how it worked (either because they were the person who wrote it, or talked to the person who did, or got it from someone else in some other way) and passed that knowledge on, IC or OOC, to others.

If I posted a bard note with an intricate map of hell because I explored it with a Bard, would that be better than posting to a forum?

>But that has consequences, too; I mean, there's a reason huge
>explore areas aren't really written anymore -- the effort that
>goes into crafting them isn't worth the short time that the
>people who are into that kind of thing will get to enjoy it
>before someone throws a tantrum.

You mean a tantrum like closing it when someone posts a walkthrough or some other kind of tantrum? }(

In all seriousness though, the amount of time and effort that has been spent in trying to solve Hell, ST, Yzekon, etc. has long ago outstripped the amount of time and effort that went into creating them. There are probably even individuals out there who have spent more time work on ST than you did in creating it because they are going to fail N times before getting it right, and even then they probably aren't going to have the full understanding that you possess.

>This is also why, for example, the idea of a Shadow cabal has
>been essentially dead for a very long time.

A cabal with secret membership is totally possible. You just can't have everyone knowing who everyone else is. Lots of ways to manage that really.

>And to me that's too bad, but maybe that's the game people
>want.

I understand the sadness, but instead of seeing it as the "magic is gone" think of it as an opportunity to make new magic in new ways?

>A cabal with secret membership is totally possible. You just
>can't have everyone knowing who everyone else is. Lots of
>ways to manage that really.

You really can't. Because log board.

You can't have a normal cabal with secret membership, but you can definitely have one.

I'm sure there is a name for it, but when you have a group of conspirators, but each of them only knows themselves and one other (or no other) people who are a part.

You also need cabal powers that are hard to discern from the outside (despoil would be on of those) or have some way to make it appear you are something you are not. Great excuse to bring back doppel if you ask me :)

And I think you are absolutely right, it is doable and opens a lot
of extremely interesting gameplay possibilities.

you have a secret cabal where yes, at most you know just you and 1 or so others. But the catch is you're in a different cabal at the same time (or uncaballed, don't have to be in a cabal) and you're using it as a vehicle toward some other goal. Deception, manipulation, and subterfuge reign supreme.

That would be fun. Kind of mysterious and dangerous for all.

>In all seriousness though, the amount of time and effort that
>has been spent in trying to solve Hell, ST, Yzekon, etc. has
>long ago outstripped the amount of time and effort that went
>into creating them.

Assuming for a moment that this is true...

That's not the calculus I use to decide if I want to work on something or not. The time either feels well-spent to me or it doesn't.

>A cabal with secret membership is totally possible. You just
>can't have everyone knowing who everyone else is. Lots of
>ways to manage that really.

It's been tried and honestly it was kind of a bust. Literally the minute a player had any idea of who else even might be in or what the powers were they blabbed.

I'm not saying this specifically drove Jullias from the game but it certainly was one of the things.

>I understand the sadness, but instead of seeing it as the
>"magic is gone" think of it as an opportunity to make new
>magic in new ways?

There legitimately are new and interesting things I can come up with now that are less de-magic-able, although lately when I do get the urge to make something for CF my energy tends to run in different directions. So maybe you get something like the Dragon Lairs instead of another Silent Tower because I think the former is more viable today. That's not the worst thing in the world, is it?

My only wish would be smarter NPCs that have less HP. Dragon lairs are a step in that direction but the NPCs still have 100k HP... Small critique though.

>My only wish would be smarter NPCs that have less HP. Dragon
>lairs are a step in that direction but the NPCs still have
>100k HP...

Um. You're guessing a little high.

Looks like Tiamat herself is sitting at exactly 6K.

If I have 6k HP and 90% in built, non-dispellable DR then I have effectively 60k HP. Those numbers are probably still high but I think even 10k is probably excessive.

>Those numbers are probably still
>high

I did the math on it and your number is several times the correct number, yes.

And that's Tiamat. That's the worst thing in the 6 lairs.

I have no idea why I feel compelled to explain this to you; there's things I make that I know you're a fan of, and this probably is just not one of them. The whole point is that me saying "Maybe something like the Silent Tower really can't work" isn't me throwing up my hands and ragequitting, it's me saying, "Well, what else can I do that's interesting to some portion of the playerbase and largely reveal-proof?"

Please ignore the whiners.

"But that has consequences, too; I mean, there's a reason huge explore areas aren't really written anymore -- the effort that goes into crafting them isn't worth the short time that the people who are into that kind of thing will get to enjoy it before someone throws a tantrum."



I agree that explore areas and the things that have been available in them are a really cool idea. They have a potential to change dynamics, and set up interesting roleplay scenarios. However, the tantrums come when someone who's already pretty tough gets their hands on Unique Uber Item X. If the primary consequence of secrets not being so secret is that Unique Uber Item X no longer exists.. I think CF is better for it.

If the consequence is that the areas themselves go away? Now that's a real loss, and one that was totally unnecessary. The few times I went to Hell I logged the whole thing not because I wanted gear locations or anything... But because I wanted to be able to go back through and actually read what was written. Further, I'm awful at puzzles and things. I'll probably never even figure out the riddle in Azhan... So a quest system would just leave me permanently in the dark. Oh well.