It takes way to long for these guys to get their promotions. 125+ hours (That is over 3 full work weeks devoted to this GAME) and all they get is a random resist, or a protect evil and detect evil. While ALL other cabals, once you're in, you have all the abilities (Empire has to pay to play being the exception).

If you don't want to do away with squire and Scribe then get to promoting before they are near con death! It is said to be a noob cabal. Well you certainly aren't doing them favors by keeping them from their powers.

Am I the only one that seems to feel this to be craptacular?

As an aside, I've never had a problem getting made a full Maran that I can remember. I only ever lost it one time (another time I got booted as a Squire, then re-inducted and made a full Maran down the road) and I still disagree with how it went down. That being said, the character was, I think, like level 24 or so when he got promoted, and I had less than 75 hours or so invested. In all honesty, I probably shouldn't have been made Maran so early, because I got smug after that and when I get smug it never ends well. Putting more time investment into the character helps keep you humble and makes you less likely to do something to lose your powers.

I tried my first squire/maran not long ago. I had never been part of fort before that. In fact I thought they were much more like zealots before I joined and was quite surprised when I first read the creed. With that being said, I think Kalgranesh was my most PK successful character, even with only between 5-10 PKs.

I had no idea about where I stood, and even with matching play times with Flindar and Oushi, I never had a conversation that involved talking about what the best ways to become a maran are.

Now I know that there is a book about being a leader and in it, it states that the captain is supposed to teach the young squires how to attack and the marshall is supposed to teach the squires/scribes to defend.

So, my question is, and perhaps it is from an RP/role stand point or just a complacency problem, but why do leaders not do this. I know maran are supposed to strike out at the darkness, but would it hurt to say "Hey <Insert name of scribe/squire>, come and speak with me. I wish to teach you some things." Instead of constantly fighting and giving nothing but gifts to the younger ones and hoping they learn on the fly.


What are the thoughts on this?

In my experience, this is an excellent idea in theory.

Sadly, put into motion it's a bit harder. Usually the teach you talk comes after watching a squire or someone make a mistake and suffer an avoidable defeat. And at that time the character/player isn't in the mood to be taught, instead becoming quickly abrasive or defensive of their actions.

Meet that response a couple of times and vet Maran usually just say screw it, and become lone wolf hunters.

For context:

Before the squire era, you had to have Imm induction to join Maran, period. Until you were made Maran, you had zero cabal powers, and had to make a name for yourself against imperials/scions/whatnot with just your class tools.

At some point, standards were loosened to create "squires," which I'm sure made things less demanding for players -- who now have to do less to "stand out" and become full Maran (it's easier to "stand out" when you have the benefit of cabal channel, raiding opps, etc.) and Fort Imms.

IMO the original way (Imm induction) was the high water mark for Maran because in my experience, it is human nature to appreciate things you have to work for, and take things for granted that come to you for free. So it was a true accomplishment and in-game reward to become Maran. Also, because the selection process made it extremely unfriendly to noobs, it was the opposite of a noob cabal.

The key, however, was that Dawn/Acolytes were freely inducted with full powers. So if you didn't want to put in the effort to become Maran, you could just go Acolyte and get the free protection-plus and benefits of being caballed. That's where all the noobs went. So switching Acolytes to an Imm-approval model was a real knee in the groin to the instant gratification crowd (of which there are many).

Instant gratification is not after you spend 150 HOURS fighting for a fortress with next to no benefit. Goodies don't have to be in fort to get all the same gear that other forties get. Almost all goodies share.

You get a CB. Which helps you if you are slept (sometimes), and lets you chat and tout kills.

I agree, there is no carrot right now for the instant gratification crowd. That's what I meant to say in a long winded way - that Acolyte/Dawn USED to be an excellent opportunity for people that want to be in a good aligned cabal and not have to wait for IMM induction. And I think while Maran shouldn't change, maybe Acolyte could.

As a side note, I think we are all lucky that Baer does such an awesome job overseeing things as they are because I think it requires an immense amount of supervision, time management, and organizational skills on the part of the Fort IMMs to keep it fair and running smoothly. I'm not even kidding, either. At all. And if Maran went back to the way it was, it would be even harder for the Fort IMMs.

As for the squire powers, right now I think the main reason to go Fort is the RP opportunities and the increased opportunities to interact with other players. It's not even about the powers. I can't imagine rolling a goodie and going for any other cabal or going cabal-less, unless I wanted to do a role with a twist. Fort is just that ubiquitous and adds that much to playing experience, even if you ignore the powers. And I don't think I'm alone in that :)

Fort roleplay is exactly why I will not play it. Even when it has/had good leadership in Baerinika, you, Adekar, and a few others, the players were obnoxious enough and interaction expected and camaraderie required that I'd basically only play it as a deaf and mute flawed character to make it tolerable.

I can't imagine rolling a goodie and going for Fort over choosing any other cabal or going cabal-less.

that of late I've seen squires put in SO much con/time into being a squire and then when they finally get to be a Maran they have so little con left that they cannot begin to learn the powers and become better at it.

Also feedback is a big thing. There are no set markers to know that you are on your way to being a maran. Is it # of evils killed or is it perhaps taking down a powerhouse evil Commander of Battle or Emperor/Seat holder? Is is all of the above?

Solutions? Other than doing away with squires? Perhaps tier steps like Empire style. I don't have all the answers, this is just one of my soap box items.

P_N

--> Age died a Maran, played a squire.

Frankly, this prevents annoying people from powergaming to Maran and running around like orcs with phoenix brand. Baer has said if you're interesting solely in pk/powers, there are better options than becoming a Maran, and she's fine with the extra emphasis it places on RP instead. It also makes Maran worth something. Additonally, there are people with solid RP and PK skills who make Maran earlier than usual. These individuals are appropriately exceptional in the cabal.

OP's primary argument is not logical.

>>>It takes way to long for these guys to get their promotions. 125+
>>>hours (That is over 3 full work weeks devoted to this GAME) and all
>>> they get is a random resist, or a protect evil and detect evil.
>>> While ALL other cabals, once you're in, you have all the abilities
>>> (Empire has to pay to play being the exception).

Think about what you are saying. If the abilities aren't worth much, then these players aren't losing anything mechanically by not becoming Maran. As other players have observed, there is very little powerup for a competent player becoming a Maran. Twist has a good post about it.

While I can't speak for the Imms, and frankly don't want to, I like the fact that becoming a Maran seems to have something to do with a good representative of the GOOD. There's a clearly a holistic approach involved. PK skill is a big part of it, but there is obviously leadership, RP, devotion to ideals, consistency, presence, et al. Hapless powergamers try to maximize any formula, and so I'm glad being Maran is being left to imm judgement rather fulfilling a set of criteria like numbers of hours and number of pkills.

Being Maran is an accomplishment that is worthwhile. Ask the player of Grejj, whose death prompted this dicussion for the Original Poster, and he'll say making Maran felt like an accomplishment.

Link to the Twist post I mentioned and overall thread that has rehashed, mashed, diced, doublefried this issue.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23859&mesg_id=23914&page=

Sure, it felt great to be acknowledged by Baerinika as a Maran. (Happened when I defended against 3-4 Imperials in a lost cause and lived) but I could have had it way before...I believe I was doing good. Might have cost me a bit less deaths and would have toyed with the powers a bit more.

But eh.

I mean this in the friendliest way possible :)
If you wanted more time with your character, you should have spent
20 minutes picking up a rot set, and waiting out rot :P

My point stands, though. Instant gratification doesn't produce a sense of accomplishment, and I'm not sure your experience would be better if you simply were Maran from the start.

Meanwhile, Quixotic is howling that the poor oppressed necromancers of Thera don't need any early Marans. I think we have two vocal groups that need to resolve that difference.

Though, I would get rid of Cry and replace it with something else (I'm not a fan of powers that promote "ganging", so likewise for the Nexus Bond).

Oh and I always thought the old Dawnie skill 'guard' was neat, does someone (Acolytes?) still get it?

And having played a number of scribes plus a maran wannabe that wasn't even induct at 200 hours, I think you're overlooking the benefit the fort gets from its wide range of classes and the fact that people try to support each other.

I actually think it is ok as is, although I'd base marination less on pk numbers and more on scale of accomplishment for an individual player. So newb that dies a lot and finally makes a solo pk after 150 hours gets it where a vet doesn't yet because pk to a vet is much easier: the vet gets it more based around role play where he doesn't know he's being observed.

I don't like the second part of your post.

mainly because if a vet is pking and doing very well at what a Maran is supposed to do(kill evil) then some guy who is typically evil's whipping boy gets Maran it doesn't make much sense. On a fun stick level, sure, it makes sense, but on a reputation of Maran as evil-assbeaters level it makes no sense. IC it's hard to justify how Joe, 1-100, is a full Maran whereas Bob, 100-1, isn't.

Honestly, I like the Maranation system as is. And that's coming from someone who doesn't typically play a religion or follow a fort Imm when I play in the Fort.

I strongly agree with your point that Fort really does help each other out, which is way more valuable than a lot of people realize.

Squires who take their time ranking and pking through the levels have made maran plenty early.

I will concede that it would be nice if there were a graduated system like empire, so their power scale showed more differentiation in scope and power. Tiers could be determined by Pks, Imm exp, hours, phase of the moon, orphanage donations, or whatever.

Tier I Standard bearer
Tier II Shield Bearer
Tier III Sword Bearer
Tier IV Squire
Tier V Maran

Mantle of the Phoenix
Tier I Detect Evil
Tier II previous abilities + Protection
Tier III previous abilities + Free Beer in Voralian City
Tier IV previous abilities + fire healing
Tier V previous abilities + flight


Eyes of flame - (Change: The more the balance tips toward darkness, the more consistently it works)
Tier I - (does not work)
Tier II - APs only
Tier III - APs & necros
Tier IV - APs, Necros, Shaman
Tier V - APs, Necros, Shaman, Healers

You get the idea.

It's not as if their powers are even all that spectacular, honestly. Most players would happily trade every last Fort power for something like despoil, centurions, or chameleon, which are only one of the many powers other cabals get.

This baffles me. The Maran powers are stupid nice if you are competent pk and borderline overpowered if you and one other person are competent in pk.

Lightforge is retarded nice, used in conjunction with phoenixbrand it's ridiculous. Not to mention the overwhelming overpowered nature of Cry of the Phoenix. You get two strong full Maran warriors working competently and timing their lag and it can get really ugly really quickly for almost anyone.

Eyes I use more to save myself than anything else, being almost immune to sleep is priceless.

Fire healing, protection and flight is just gravy at this point.

Lightforge is superceded by basic game knowledge - there are weapons of every type that are just as good or even straight out better than lightforge ones. Very few properly prepared players would willingly choose to use a lightforge weapon, they're mostly a convenience ability for when your preferred weapon is not around.

Phoenix brand is a pve skill for people with specific weapon types. Only paladins will really see reliable results from using it in PvP, since they are the only class which are reliant on skills which do holy damage. All other characters who use phoenix brand almost always have a better PvP option.

Cry of deliverance is really the only decent maran power, but its primary use is for facilitating gangdowns and moving to cabal quicker. If you don't have two competent maran working together, it's much less useful. If you're not fighting in your own cabal, its much less useful. And most importantly, if you don't wanna gang people down, or can't, because you don't have anyone to do it with, its just not useful at all.

Eyes is yet another maran power that is helpful if you're bad. It's generally weak players that get slept in the first place; eyes is a great way to handle that kind of threat if you're a newbie. Good players don't really have problems with sleep in the first place. Furthermore, experienced players will happily use eyes against you, and I've seen lots of people die for no other reason that they left eyes on and it bought the opponents enough time to lag them with other abilities.

A method of handling fire damage, protection from evil, and flight are cute, but again, it's all just stuff any decent player can prep for with relative ease beginning at level 15. The only unique thing is fire healing, and even then it's not really useful, since all your half-decent enemies won't be using fire damage against you, ever, and I can name half a dozen sources of fire resistance off the top of my head.

tl;dr Maran powers are weak and easily replaced by basic game knowledge and experience. The only really valuable part of joining fort is the active cooperation, and even then, I've gotten equal amounts of teamwork and cooperation from Empire; active cooperation is something that every cabal amounts to, and is by no means unique to Fort. In fact, I'd say Fort is a lot weaker at active cooperation than most cabals, simply by virtue of the fact that most of its members are newbie as hell.

NT

Except maybe whip and exotic. I'm sure good wrath/searing light whips and exotics exist, I'm just having a hard time remembering them. Lightforge just isn't good - it's a regear power, not a real one. The only really uniquely useful effect lightforge offers is from its scrolls/wands/staves.

Besides, if you're using phoenix brand on PCs, you're either playing a very limited class (defensive shifter?) or you're probably doing something very wrong. Furthermore, there used to be a couple of items and preps which completely neutralized its effect, though now with the damage redux changes I suppose phoenix brand might counter their resistance somewhat.

It's still almost never worth using against other PCs. If you take every log of every top 10 Fortress PKer ever, I'm going to be honestly surprised if they use phoenix brand in pvp more than once every two or three hundred PKs.

Is that you can have that weapon now.

You don't have to gather a searing light dagger. You just make one.

Is it as good as the one you could go out and get? No.

Can you have it NOW? Yes.

That's extra time that you have to engage your enemy, brand him, and mess him up with the dagger that you made.

I really don't get the drawback to using PB in PK.

Then again, I've only played one Maran and he sucked.

Just almost never the right choice.

You're giving up possible lag or possible control abilities or possible damage abilities just to get a 50/50 chance of a vuln that is useful to you.

Again, it's fine when you're killing mobs, but unless you're a paladin or something and that boost can be really significant to all your most powerful abilities, it's usually not a good choice. And even if you are a paladin, you're giving up two possible wraths or whatever so that you have a 50/50 chance of getting a vuln you can fully exploit; it's almost never the best move, even then.

Assuming an unprepped foe, you have a 100% chance of giving them a vuln you can exploit if it lands.

That's not what the skill does at all. Lol.

Because I'm not seeing where he's wrong.

Phoenix brand is 50/50 searing light or wrath vuln. Lightforge only gives one of those (searing light weapons). So if you want 100% chance of something you can exploit you need to have one weapon set of searing light weapons and one weapon set of wrath weapons, and have the spare commands to switch between them when needed, or be a class that can exploit one vuln while using weapons for another(the only one that comes to mind right now is paladin)

Furthermore, in a lot of cases these weapons will be subpar; Rather than waste a command using phoenix brand and wielding two lower average searing light weapons, why not just use two higher average drowning weapons to exploit an already existing vuln and not even waste a command on phoenix brand? You'll do more damage on an unprepped opponent AND you won't have to waste several commands and rounds to do it.

And even if everything is perfect and you get the perfect vuln on weapons that you're already wielding, I'll bet there's something better you can be doing with your commands than phoenix brand against a fully unprepped opponent. Seriously.

In my experience, you the player can affect which vuln PB gives, to a significant extent.

Instead of addressing the actual point, makes a claim that has a shred of truth and misses the part of actual relevance :)

Reminds me of how cranial worked.

FWIW, I've had two Marans and here's my thoughts:

Most of the time, if you aren't religious or high profile, you're not going to get Maran early.

Waiting 100+ hrs to get Maran sucks, but honestly makes it feel like an accomplishment when you get it.

I agree with B, if Maran were IMM induct and you could just go straight Acolyte (without having to spend 100+ hrs as a scribe), I think the game would probably be better off.

Maran powers (and thoughts):

Zeal - Pretty sweet for a melee class

Mantle - FFS, would it really break the game to give squires full Mantle? Also, lot of people don't even realize Maran Mantle only gives fire protection at hero (I think?). Pretty decent power, the best part honestly is something Daurwyn mentioned on Torak's death thread, in re: Mantle being nice because of the fact you can't get your flight dispelled. That's pretty sweet (yeah for no trip-perma-lag!).

Lightforge - Awesome for practicing, awesome for ranking, meh in PK. Sometimes it can shine in PK (like vortex said, when you have the ability to waste a few commands in battle, PB shines a lot more) but sometimes they just take up inventory space. I see this more as a mid-level/Noob power, to be honest.

PB - It's awesome, when you have the time and ability to do it. Fighting a character like Eleagra, it's never going to get used. However, in more drawn out fights it can be a kill-sealer (like when used against someone like a healer or shaman....you can effectively one-round them with lightforge + PB + some lucky timing with their sanc dropping). Much more useful I'd think for an ABS mage or virtued paladin than for a melee class.

Cry o D - Probably the best power, but so many people don't even understand how it works. Would love this power a lot more if it didn't cost a ####load of mana and have the chance to fail repeatedly (but I suppose it has to have drawbacks). Hardly ever used this to gang people but I sure as #### used it to get back to retrieve quick as ####.

Eyes - As Arvam, Balrahd, and many others have said "Did I tell you about that time I forgot I had eyes up and died horribly?". Eyes is both a blessing and a curse. I love love LOVE it when you are playing a dude like Palan or Palmer and he's a necro/AP sleep machine. I hate hate HATE it when a smart player uses the fact you have eyes against you (like Elhe did to me often).

Maran definitely have the worst powers (other than Trib) of all the cabals. I suppose they make up for it by having the highest numbers and the most active IMM presence.

As a mid-level/noob power lightforge is probably the best. Even better than resistance. Having them between 25-30 feels almost overpowered as they are close to your level, good average, gives nice hit/dam and if you go with the progging one the prog hits pretty hard at that level.

One solution to all this could be to simply give squires some more powers and just move them up.

Give squires zeal and lightforge but move lightforge to 42. Will suck for the lowbie pk-er Maran but the newbie that is a squire will at least be able to get some weapons.

Where PB reigns is when you look at paladins and to a lesser extent conjurers. I've heard a rumor Fortress usually has a paladin.

Even against a powerhouse, one of the Fortress horde should get off PB, and if there is a paladin around, they will be hitting a vulnerability.

>Instead of addressing the actual point, makes a claim that
>has a shred of truth and misses the part of actual relevance
>:)

Huh?

>Phoenix brand is 50/50 searing light or wrath vuln.
>Lightforge only gives one of those (searing light weapons). So
>if you want 100% chance of something you can exploit you need
>to have one weapon set of searing light weapons and one weapon
>set of wrath weapons, and have the spare commands to switch
>between them when needed, or be a class that can exploit one
>vuln while using weapons for another(the only one that comes
>to mind right now is paladin)

Yep... you need to be packing a holy weapon for that to be true. This is not a major hardship as a good character.

>Furthermore, in a lot of cases these weapons will be subpar;
>Rather than waste a command using phoenix brand and wielding
>two lower average searing light weapons, why not just use two
>higher average drowning weapons to exploit an already existing
>vuln and not even waste a command on phoenix brand? You'll do
>more damage on an unprepped opponent AND you won't have to
>waste several commands and rounds to do it.

Where are you getting these two higher average drowning weapons?

>And even if everything is perfect and you get the perfect vuln
>on weapons that you're already wielding, I'll bet there's
>something better you can be doing with your commands than
>phoenix brand against a fully unprepped opponent. Seriously.

It's not something for every PK. That's absolutely true. Sometimes too much damage scares off someone you might otherwise be able to rope-a-dope and kill. Sigil of Pain has a lot of the same concerns, and is also situationally an awesome power.

Honestly if the *only* thing Phoenix Brand were good for was "I can raid 1-2 ticks faster" it wouldn't be a joke of a power, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Sometimes the usefulness of an ability isn't obvious to the person with it . Who was tought for my Imperial thug? Marian, becaus light forge meant I couldnt run them out of weapons using grapple, and hand specs because they just battered me if I did. But Maran also rarely had flight dropped while ko'd.

Anyone who dismisses eyes of flame is an idiot. It has offensive power as well as defensive.

And the person who made the rEasonsble point that people with good pk should perhaps get Maran.... Well, my point is that a vet can achieve that with minimal risk, as can certain level sitters etc. they do not deserve the rewards that someone that lays their life on the line does , assuming said person isn't just being wasteful.

I think if you were to play, say, hero-range necro or A-P for a hundred hours or so, your opinion on the strength of most of these powers will change a lot. You really underestimate the tactical value of eyes of flame and the kinds of choices Mantle forces your enemies to make -- and I kind of feel like you miss all of the best uses of Lightforge (which, granted, are not applicable to all kinds of characters.)

And it was totally unexpected.

That was definitely me doing it. And even though it was integral to my build, I would have traded every single last one of my powers for despoil or chameleon or centurions or what have you.

One of my favorite things to do both as Gurzgred and Garwern were to phoenix brand at the start of the fight, but not have my searing light or holy weapons wielded.

Let it go a decent number of rounds, hell, maybe even be losing. Then either switch to a holy/light (whichever one PB gave you) and drum/strike of faith for huge vuln damage out of nowhere.

That's just one of any number of ways. You can make ANYONE vuln to you and then ALWAYS exploit that vuln. That's huge.