Having fought every inner cabal guardian in the last year other than Outlander (playing tribunal, fortress, battle and empire) I think I have at least a sense of the relative strengths, and potential for cabal member assistance in each case.

I think the suggestion to make the fortress innner, the Watcher, be a two handed dedicant with some virtues is an excellent idea. The destructor has weapons, and knows all seven specs, so there certainly is no problem giving the Watcher a weapon to use. And, like the Destructor, I'd have it randomly change in battle from mace to sword to polearm, etc.

To my knowledge he is the only cabal inner guardian other than the Tribunal who does not in any way maledict. This would allow him to do so. And those maledictions are useful, but not crippling.

It would also make the Watcher more linked to the fortress, as a Maran paladin.

I leave it to those who know the inner workings of the game better than I to determine how many virtues, and which, though as a fighter I'd probably just give him retribution and temperance and maybe fortitude. But that's just off the top of my head. Maybe Hope for some holy strength and to randomly give fortress people standing there everyone that steadfast heart morale boost. :P

I remember with Drozzhurb and a few others thinking that the Watcher was the absolute weakest of the guardians, as well as the maran outer guardian.

Figured I'd open it up on the main gameplay forum.

The configuration of the inner part of the fortress is easily the deadliest of all the cabals when you have people there to help defend. The "pronged" defense I think more than makes up for the fact that it is the weakest guardian.

Except if you don't have time to get back because the guardian is dead too fast, it doesn't matter about the configuration....

Remember the part on my forum where I said 'I'd look into it'?...Yeah, I kinda meant that. Nothing has changed yet, (or has it?), but that's mainly because I'm still watching...and talking to my fellow imms about it.

I bring this up just because, it seemed a little strange to transplant this conversation when it was already being discussed elsewhere. Ramble on, I guess.


"your gun went off
well you shot off your mouth and look where it got you
my mouth runs on too
shouts from both sides
"well we've got the land but they've got the view" "
- Modest Mouse

I wasn't saying anything contrary. I was making a suggestion as to what you might consider aside from simply upping hps or hasting him or whatever.

It was an idea that I thought was worth merit and might not have been mentioned among you and your fellow peeps. So, I mentioned it. Now you have something more to add to the mix of your discussions. If you were already considering it, you have more minds (questionable as you may deem them) discussing and mentioning things which may not have been mentioned.

Try the new Beasties. Not bad.

>And, like the Destructor, I'd have
>it randomly change in battle from mace to sword to polearm,
>etc.

I'd really rather the Destructor's weapon be a unique thing than see it watered down with a Watcher work-alike.

The rest I think sounds like a good idea, though I feel very slightly about virtues the way I do about the multi-weapon in that they're a special quasi-mysterious thing.

I definitely like the idea of the two-hand skills. Maybe instead of virtues he can go sword and shield doing some two-handed skills and some shield dedicant skills.

Assuming that he needs tweaking, which I don't really know.

I agree. Leave the Destructor his Weapons of Mastery. Though, if I recall most guardians are at least giant-sized if not bigger, so he could just have a two-handed weapon, and toss on a shield if he wants, but...my opinion is at least the skills/sups from virtues aren't really that mysterious. They've got helpfiles and stuff, and there's enough paladins running around with them that they get seen pretty often. Also keep in mind that the watcher probably wouldn't just be GIVEN the package virtue sets like players would, so you wouldn't be seeing them in sets, leaving *some* of the mystery.

Alot. Although it pains me to agree with this person. heh.


I would, however, STILL upgrade perhaps the hp of the watcher, I do not think giving him a few 2handed skills and virtues, while leaving him the same strength...can bring him up to par with...say......


Entwining,pincering,flurrying,stabing,legsweeping.....et cetera.
or

Axe kicking, kot'ing, Kans'ing, softening, slowing, blinding, poisoning...et cetera.

or

Nova....et cetera.

or even...

Spores, insects, thornheart, entangle, thorn, sunray, moonbeam...etc.

Just reminded me of some things I saw on the Premium battlefield as immortal comments:

Yanaceck:

Added on Wed Dec 3 08:53:34 2003 by 'Rogardian' at level 51 (528 hrs)
He solo'd the Fort inner with no preps without having to flee once. Disgustingly impressive.

Kardock:

Mon Feb 23 23:51:32 2004 by 'Arvam' at level 51 (388 hrs):
This guy is pretty ballsy. Not afraid to hit the Maran Inner even if they outnumber him.


This isn't taking anything away from 2 obviously kick-ass characters, but it does seem like the fortress inner really isn't that strong since I've yet to see a comment on how someone soloed an inner other than the fortress one.

>This isn't taking anything away from 2 obviously kick-ass
>characters, but it does seem like the fortress inner really
>isn't that strong since I've yet to see a comment on how
>someone soloed an inner other than the fortress one.

Not to detract from your overall point, but heros solo-ing cabal inners isn't a supremely rare occurence. Most paladins can solo the Empire or (especially) Scion inners. Many rager berserkers can solo the Scion (and possibly) Empire inners. Etc.

>>This isn't taking anything away from 2 obviously kick-ass
>>characters, but it does seem like the fortress inner really
>>isn't that strong since I've yet to see a comment on how
>>someone soloed an inner other than the fortress one.
>
>Not to detract from your overall point, but heros solo-ing
>cabal inners isn't a supremely rare occurence. Most paladins
>can solo the Empire or (especially) Scion inners. Many rager
>berserkers can solo the Scion (and possibly) Empire inners.
>Etc.


True, but when the maran inner gets soloed often enough that it's the only one that shows up in the immortal comments section, it seems to infer that it happens quite a bit.

I would think that you would draw the opposite conclusion. If most inner guardians are soloed often enough they aren't really worthy of commenting on, but the Maran inner is, it would seem to say it doesn't happen as often, or at least not at the time when the comments were made.

more impressive to face an inner solo
if that inner exploits a vuln of your
character.
and he's not like a paladin or healer
where he can heal himself in combat
and he did not flee once.
My personal view is that was what the comment
was about. but ask the guy who wrote it if
you want to know for sure. :)

The only problem I ever had with the fort
guardians is that you can't get there in time.
word, run run run... outer dead run run run.
If it was a lone hero fighting inner is so-so
when you get there, if it was 2 he is near death.
3 well maybe you can hit them on the way out.
If that is the way it needs to be fine fine.
I'll just try to run faster next time I play a fortie
even then it never really bothered me until i was resting
at the inner, 3 folks strike, i pause only long enough to
zap myself with 'A' wand, get down to the maran and
he falls as i get there. never stopped to use the wands
after that, i know i didn't have time.
maybe that is where the fort gets some of the one goes
out and drops another one and drops etc..
wonder if the ones that race out are like me and used
to playing when no one else was about to help defend??

I don't mean this to be a rant if it sounds like it,
I always figured you work around the disadvantages
you get in game. or plow through them, or die.
(As you all know, I don't mind dying)
I'd LIKE to see tougher guardians, but I'm not
going to hold my breath.

More often something happens, the more often an instance of it happening going to be noticed.

Over-analyzing, yeah, but I see someone wack a cabal inner solo, I think that's cool. I see it happen a lot, it gets worthy of being mentioned when I see it again.

Or something like that...

I almost BET that he had that peice of gear that made him immune to fire
ALMOST totally rendering half the hits of the watcher useless..
and WITH a spiffy shield.. he could COMPLETLY render the watcher useless

And from what I have seen of the watcher he is a freakin panzy. I'm much more afraid of the BIG D than just about any other inner.