There has been a lot of discussion over the idea of having to write roles, be religious, and do the same thing over and over again (thinking looking at Hamsah ships and how long it takes me) in the idea of getting enough edge points to be competitive.

I would like to suggest additional alternative methods to reward characters with edge points.

1) Levels gained - Give some edge points at certain levels gained, lets say 20, 40, and 51. Let them be relatively minor at 20 and 40 but somewhat rewarding at 51.

2) Hours played - Give some edge points once a character reaches a certain amount of hours and every so many hours thereafter with a max so long lived races aren't over-rewarded. I am thinking the point start at 150 and come every additional 50 hours maxing at 450.

3) Cabal Experience - Give some edge points for milestones in cabal experience with a max at a certain level to stop over-rewarding. Lets say every 20,000 cabal experience with a max of 100,000.

My thoughts are that these would not replace what is already in place, but give a long lived hero who is actively competing in cabal wars a chance to gain a few additional edges even if they do not write roles well.

Is the observation/exploration stuff. Because that's basically 5 hours or so in the beginning of each character that my OCD forces me to run around looking at #### I've seen a million times before.

edit: and maybe having immexp requirement for devious versatility, since it's so core to the thief class. But if the requirement is fairly low i'm fine with it.

The analog of each of these ideas that I think is reasonable has been implemented all along.

That being said I'm not opposed to a dialogue about what other kinds of things we might award some edge for.

And if implemented, maybe one should get cabal exp for pks done in a cabal headquarters?

I think if people hit 5k exp/10k etc, it would encourage more raiding. Maybe, if someone on the immstaff isn't employed at the moment they could add in really minor level cabal edges. Nothing too OP, but make certain powers last longer, or maybe certain abilities slightly better (adding 10hp to field dressing or + 1 dex or +1 str to blade of the codex)


its a big undertaking, but I think it would encourage raiding.

If cabal exp counts towards edges, I think it should scale based on how many defenders there are. For instance, if you raid Fort and take the Orb when there's no one on, you might get 100 exp. But if there's 3 defenders in your PK, you might get 1000. Or whatever formula works.

Basically, some sort of incentive to raid a cabal when there are defenders instead of just waiting until they log out.

>Basically, some sort of incentive to raid a cabal when there
>are defenders instead of just waiting until they log out.

Bingo. This is why it isn't a literal reward for cabal XP -- it's something marginally more clever.

To give more reasons to kill your enemies than...I don't know....random pks.

The downside to playing a game that is largely in a black box is that you don't always know what is already implemented. Glad most of these are already in place.

One question I do have, how significant are the rewards for them? It really feels like a few of them should really count for a lot - hero level and large number of hours.

I can't believe people were unaware of it.

NT

Agreed. I've Noticed that for a very long time. How I've rolled the bones for most of my shifters.

I'd like to see a system that allows edge points from observation and exploration (above some minimum threshold) to be gained through other means. Characters who are deficient in those other areas can still get their points through observation and exploration.

Based on my limited understanding of the way the system works now even a character who has 1) a ton of PKs, 2) lots of game hours, 3) lots of immortal xp, still has an incentive to max out his observation and exploration because doing so will net him more edge points. This has the effect of making rote exploration/observation more or less "mandatory" for the player who wants to maximize his/her edge points (which, honestly, is everybody, because nobody wants to be gimped vs. the competition).

Moreover, exploration and observation (when not being done for the first time) don't add anything to the game, either for the player doing the observing/exploring or his friends and enemies. Or the staff. Much better to incentivize role-play.

I'll admit this suggestion is fairly selfish and tailored to how I play. But, that said, I'm not sure I'm so different from other folks and what I've proposed doesn't remove their ability to amass edge points through observation and exploration. I just hate the "work" of mechanically gaming observation/exploration, but I know I'm going to have do it with every character regardless of how well he/she does at the other edge-point-generating activities. It would be nice if I could say to myself at character creation, "Well, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get some PKs, get into a cabal, get some imm xp and live a long time, so I can punt on observation/exploration."

Is to grant observation points from FIGHTING a mob, so it is not required for you to look at it.

There is nothing sillier, and few things more RP-killing, than to have your groupmate tell you, "be sure to look at it!" while you're fleeing past a mob.

Or, "damn, I forgot to look at it, I'll be back in a sec."

Or, "crap, we have to wait for a repop and kill it again, I forgot to look at it."

(n/t)

Really, I'm quite against it, if it means that I (being storm, elf or any other goodie race) should attack goodie mobs to acquire the same maximum observation EXP as neutrals or evils.

(N/t)

Especially considering that if you're fighting something, you will definitely be looking at it. I'm speaking from Fencing experience here. When I'm fencing, I'm watching my opponent and his every body motion pretty closely, trying to judge where his next attack is going to be so I can decide if I want to parry, dodge, or ignore it completely in favor of a counter attack. If I was fighting a dragon, manticore, or some other strange beast, I would be taking in quite a bit of detail about it. I'd be wondering how fast that spiked tail can swing around at me, of if those spikes are firmly attached vs being projectile in nature. Is that slime dripping from the monster's mouth acid that can be spit in my face, or is it just harmless (albeit disgusting) drool? What the hell does this giant eyeball have so many eyestalks all over it for?!?

Even fighting it for a moment would be ample time to gather plenty of details. Certainly it would be equivalent to "east; look 2. flee; flee; flee"

Nt

Fairly certain that you get edge points at 25 and 51. If you notice that normally you don't have, a large if any, edge list until 25. And of course a lot when you hero. I wouldn't object to the other reasons as they would allow lesser players to experience more edges but they would make elite players all the more powerful, so it would be a double edged sword.

n/t

I am the anti explorer and I crunch out roughly 20K explore and 20K observe by hour 40 on just about any build (I never really bother with the ships because the return on investment is so low when you can literally start blitzing through most hero level area explores between 25 and 35 depending on your build).

Then if you spend spamming time trying to kill people instead you also acrue PK edge points (and tend to get your key skills to where they need to be in about the same number of hours).


Most people don't seem to get more then 2 or 3K imm exp even if they actively seek it. Its like the least efficient way to get edges (except commerce which is like a lifelong slow trickle even if you don't actively seek it out) I am also not sure if it gives more edge points relative to how much you amass compared to the other special XP types.

The whole wanting imm exp just to get edge points argument makes no sense to me. The wanting imm exp because a certain amount is a threshold for something you want/need makes sense but thats only limited to the specific builds that want/need those things.

If you get that by hour forty, you aren't the anti explorer.

If I take my time and run through everything, I can get quite a bit but maybe not that much. Some of you really need to realize that you know more about the game and the exploring aspects than you think you do, even if others know more than you.

I can easily manage 20K with any build by that point. With a few builds, I can actually manage 50K+. I can actually get enough observation experience to gain a sudden rush of insight into Legendary Awareness before level 25. Of course, there's a fair amount of exploration experience that comes along with that. If I do this with a shifter, by the time I gain my final forms, I have enough edge point just from obs/explore to both Roll the Bones AND Spin the Wheel if necessary. Which I actually have done in the past. If I do this with a thief, I'll have enough edge points that purely from obs/explore that I can take Devious Versatility twice. of course, there will still be a few more edge points beyond that because you need 2K Imm xp as well. So by the time I take Devious Versatility twice, I still have a few edge points left over. If I spend a little time at pking at low levels, I'll probably have a fair bit of edge points left even after taking Devious Versatility twice. With one thief, I was very close to being able to take it a THIRD time, and that was not even a pk character.

If I could earn edge points from cabal xp, I could probably manage a 130 point thief (scary) with a number of other edges besides. I don't even want to THINK about what I could do with a conjurer who had that much access to edge points.

Lasentia is quite right in saying any additional means of accruing edge points would only increase the gap between vets and newer players. If cabal exp was a source of edge points, it was be incredibly easy to find a situation with a hero in one cabal and a lowbie/midbie in another cabal just raiding and retrieving repeatedly for hours to rake in the cabal xp and pump up their edge point reserves.

As to the current sources of edges points, they are as follows:

1.) Observation
2.) Exploration
3.) Commerce (pretty certain this is true, even though I've seen many claiming the opposite)
4.) Imm Xp
5.) Reaching level 51
6.) Pk (Near as I can tell, first edge point reward for pk is at 10 kills. After that, I'm not really sure how often you get edge points from pk, but I do know that it continues for quite a while (indefinitely?)
7.) Flaws (chosen sometime prior to level 6)
8.) Immortal rewards (i.e. Role Contest, etc...)

Unless I'm forgetting something, nothing else gives edge points.

There are no edge points given at level 25. This can be easily tested. Roll a human character that's easily capable of solo ranking to 25. Do not take any flaws. Then power rank to 25 without looking at anything or going anywhere special. Do not sell or barter items. Do not write up any role entries. This way you will have no observation, exploration, commerce, or Imm exp. You will also have no edge points from flaws. When you hit 25, go to your guildmaster and discuss. You will still have zero edges available; not even the human racial edges which are probably the lowest cost edges in the game. If you continue this pattern of behavior all the way to level 50, and discuss periodically along the way, you'll find that you still will have no edges available. Now advance to 51, and you will suddenly have a fair number of edges available.

Near as I can tell, nothing is given for old age (I actually played one character who I did not bother to seek out obs/explore/commerce xp, and didn't pk very much. I had a few edges available to choose from, but only a few. Through pure laziness, I managed to play that character to old age without increasing my qualifications for different edge. Obs/explore/commerce was very low and not enough to grant edge points. Only thing I had going for me were the couple flaws I'd chosen at level 1. When I hit old age, I did not have any additional edges come available. I never did hero this character either, so no edge points from that.) Perhaps I'm wrong about this, though.

I have never noticed if there were any edge points gained for number of hours, though that's heavily related to age. If I ever gained edge points from hours or age, I certainly never noticed it.

1) You get edge points for hitting hero for example, far as I can tell, and it is quite a few.

I think, but am not sure, that you may get some at 25 as well, but that just may be the level when a lot of edges become available so it only seems like you get edge points. I don't know for sure

2) I think when I hit old age with a char, I got edge points. It's hard to tell since I almost never am tracking my char age to know when the shift hits, but I recall randomly having lots of edges coming available with both Allysia and Salyeris, and age was the only thing I could attribute it too, unless it was hitting a set PK number or something since I don't track those either.

3) I think involvement in cabal raids retrievals generally will garner some imm xp at some point if you're consistent. I got it a few times for engaging in bad odds raids / defenses because an Imm was watching. I don't think you should get it just based on cabal xp numbers though, I think that's just a good indicator of consistency which might put you on the radar and lined up to get some imm xp when you do something relatively cool, instead of just yay, I retrieved against no defenders 20 times or something.

I just don't see edges as all that important enough that people should worry about them. By virtue of just playing the game, you're going to get enough points to take a few edges, and that is really sufficient. I usually end up taking edges just to use points by the end of my char's lives.

If some of them are in place, then that is just awesome.

I don't think you are a good example to use when deciding how edges work, as the two examples you gave were incredibly long lived and powerful characters who were both in leadership positions. Of course you were well rewarded. I mostly proposed this more for the average to below average player so that even they could get edges.

I'm all in favor of any system that makes people feel like their characters are being rewarded or recognized for being "good" so to speak. I just am always wary of putting any system in place that can be gamed for an advantage.

I've played quite a few non bards, all of them had all the edges they could want. Zannon, my first hero, got plenty of edges, and he had 0 pks. My point was basically that even as things are right now, every char can get some edges just by virtue of playing the game. Also, I just don't see any char as really requiring 10+ edges just to be comepetive so to speak. My chars are probably on the low side of rewarded when you look at hours invested, it's simply character longevity distorting things to make them seem like they are highly rewarded. Truth is, they probably were close to average.

And you do have to look at my chars and players like me in framing the argument, just as you do the newer players. CF has players besides newer ones. Think of giving additional edge points based on cabal xp and what that does to chars. Salyeris had 323800 xp from raiding. Isn't that the rich getting richer if that contributed to me getting edges at all? She had 28 as it was. Look at Isildur's post above. The guy is very skilled IMO. And what does he do with his chars? He maximizes his obs/exp xp. If he has another avenue to additional character edges, I think he would maximize that as well.

Moreover, are newbies and below average players as you put it really racking up cabal xp? I don't want to see a system where a guy sits as a low level retriever only for the purpose of racking cabal xp for edges, because more often then not I think it would be a more veteran player that is capable of and willing to do that just for the edge point pay out.

I'm not saying I oppose cabal xp helping give edges, just saying the second you put more things into place that give edge points, the second vets are going to use it to their advantage where as newbie players won't benefit as much from it. You can argue it's to help newer players, or for the sake of efficiency for a PB that has increasingly less time to devote to certain aspects of playing the game if you want, but I'll always see it as a boon to vets more so than anyone else.

If anything, I'd rather see obs/xp/commerce/ cabal xp all capped at a net of 75K or something, after which you get no more edge points from any of it. It doesn't matter if you want to pursue it all via raiding, exploring, or observing that way. There'd be no advantage accrued to vets really since they can already do this any number of ways, but it would aid newer players in getting a bit from doing everything (the cabal xp being there to sort of hel them reach the max). Since as a player I have no problem maximizing commerce / exploration / observation as it is with any char, that system would not benefit a player like me at all but it will help some newer ones maybe, which I think is your intent.

I laughed when a bunch of Battle went to Trothon, knowing full well they were going to die, just to get obs/exp xp. They basically said it was worth the slight con loss. I declined, since I saw it as crap RP, and plus I didn't need that obs/exp xp. But it shows, you put a system in place, players are going to look to game it for their own advantage, and I don't think that is really what edges are intended to be about.

Kinda confused.

Either they aren't going to use the magic way out or they are. And if they aren't, then why the hell are they using the pedestals?

That #### never made sense to me. Never went to Trothon or Arboria as a rager (unless I was a ghost in Arboria's case).

n/t

I really feel like you didn't read my post at all. Every benefit maxed out to stop over rewarding. Through replies, I have learned most of them are already in place in one form or the other. Basically you are arguing a moot point.

I will selectively respond to that huge mound of text though.

While cabal xp does not help newbies per se, it does seem to encourage the right kind of cabal behavior. Just because it would aid players, doesn't meant the reward has to be super significant. Once you get to 100,000 cabal exp perhaps you can get the most basic general edge. Is it a help, and give incentive to participate in cabal wars? Yes. Is it OP? No.

As far as asking for obs/xp/commerce cap, that would be kind of nice actually.

I suppose the biggest argument I have against you trying to encourage players not to game the system is that sometimes you really do need to play catch up with obs/xp/commerce exp to try to compete with other players who have been around much longer than you. Some edges really do make all the difference.