Any thoughts of allowing orcs to forsake the clan, like you are doing for goblins, so they could join a cabal? In forsaking the clan they would also give up adaptations. I don't think it would create many balance issues, but it could possibly open up a lot more RP and creative outlets for people who want to rock an orc.

The difference between Orcs and Goblins in this is in the meaning of "forsake"--for and Orc that means betraying the Clan and becoming an outcast, while for a Goblin that means simply originating from a different village.

Honestly, I'm not excited about Orcs participating in the cabal system. If we ever had Orcs originating outside of GSV, it would be in a rival clan, not in something like the Goblin Village. I would rather fortify the GSV with Raiders and Witch Doctors than have them enter the cabal wars.

Now--if we had a system whereby the Clan could ally themselves with a cabal and gain some tangible benefit from that (perhaps a single cabal power or cabal-like power), I could see that.

I'm OK with orcs participating in Cabal Wars. But, I think something needs to be done about Tremblefist and the fact they can hold cabal items. He is by far tougher than any of the other cabal outer guardians. Add to the fact that he can blind, curse, poison and plague (not to mention you can catch plague for just being in the orc Village) it makes retrieving from the orcs pretty rough, most especially if you are pre-40. And there is nothing you can do to orcs in return.

I'm saying this from the standpoint of a guy who likes to play battle, however, its still rough for say Fort, they just have the recall/healer option. Since orcs are able to take advantage of certain Villager weaknesses it makes them a logical enemy for orcs. Which is a different discussion all together because this is mostly for mechanical reasons and not RP reasons.

I'm not saying don't let orcs hold items. I'm just saying put it on an even playing field. One of the biggest advantages to having lower ranked cabal members is the fact they can retrieve for you. Tremblefist, as is, negates this.

Tremblefist pretty much just messes up villagers without the head, most other cabal can retrieve pretty easily from him and I rarely see orcs taking any items outside of the head anyway.

Keep in mind most cabals should not or do not tolerate orcs which really hampers them from having allies.
Fort hunts them for being evil.
Outlander hunts them for being abominations.
Battle hunts them lots of time because orcs go after them because it is a favorable match up for the orc.
Trib and empire should basically hunt them for being creatures of chaos and destruction but this often depends on the stance of the cabal leaders.

That leaves scions and nexus as people who leave the orcs alone or are willing to work with them. Outside of Krunk and maybe one other orc chief I recall, orcs have largely been a non-issue in the cabal wars dynamics. They're pretty much just hangers on to others most of the time.

If Orcs were given a cabal item, they'd have to be given perks for having it (otherwise why would they care if it was missing other than it would prevent them from taking items themselves?) and I believe the Imm staff is not inclined to make the Clan a full on cabal (at this time at least- maybe as more races/classes develop this might change) If it were made a cabal, other people could join it, sort of as citizens in empire- but I see orcs as pretty much a closed society that just rampages around. Orcs by nature would flee before fight if they were in danger- hence the inherent cowardice, so giving them a cabal item sort of seems like an odd thing, since an orc cares more about self preservation than preservation of the clan generally speaking. Why they can hold items, I'm not sure though, because as is they gain nothing except weakening cabals by doing so.

The clan is really best suited to holding the battle cabal item because of how much villagers suffer without having the head. Since orcs recall right next to tremblefist, who has far more dam redux than any other cabal outer and is generall a hell of a lot tougher (except compared to the Inn Guard) than all the others, they have a pretty easy time holding the head against villagers since an orc matches up very well against a rager without the head.

The bigger problem is when other cabals use the GSV as a holding ground and defend it with the orcs. Or a scion group gives the item to a level 11 orc because it is easier for them to defend the GSV than their own cabal. I recall times where Krunk plus the anathema perma were putting cabal items in the orc village. Then they just camped out there, and there was literally no chance of ever getting the cabal items back because the second you got there you got summoned into a gang. But, this can be done at any cabal, it's just easiest at the village given the layout of the terrain, and the fact that the orc village is a whole area, instead of having a separate cabal HQ area like all the others do only helps make it easy to camp and eliminate any elements of surprise in counter raids.

Not sure what the point of my post was now, but I always liked the idea of the clan having a rival clan, put it in Fahlugash, and the two warring with other so that they have a quasi mini cabal wars going on that the other cabals can make maneuvers and such with the two of them. Could be sort of interesting. But basically, orcs are such a small minority that for them to have a full cabal I'd really think there needs to be an expansion of who would be eligible to be in the clan, or who could be a chief in the clan. I could see minotaurs and fire/frost giants doing it, maybe even duerg.

Why they can hold items, I'm not sure though, because as is they gain nothing except weakening cabals by doing so.

I see taking cabal powers away from enemies as a useful exercise. I suppose it would be more interesting if they got a small perk from it as well, and it could even be cabal-based (e.g. doing bonus damage and having a better warcry for taking the head, etc.).

It does weaken the members of the raided cabal, but the orc himself only gains something relative to fighting members of that cabal via them being weaker without cabal powers. The orc himself is functionally no better off in general for having taken the item (this is true via all cabals- but most cabals raid for more RP reason than anything and are consistently fighting those cabals- and also having your cabal item confers a tangible benefit which incentivizes the members of the cabal to fight for and uphold their cabal ideals and protect their item- where as orcs get no such benefits for being in the clan). So orcs having the head won't aid them fighting a Maran in any way, and in fact only encourages the villager and maran to now work together against him. This means unless the orc is looking to PK people in a cabal and wants to give them a reason to fight him or come to him, there is not overly much reason for an orc to spend his time and resources raiding a cabal, especially solo, given the time involved in doing so.

The cabal exp for the raid I guess is something, but I can gain 850 xp a lot quicker doing something other than raiding the village for example- and cabal xp itself confers no actual benefit that I know of- it's just a tracking statistic and small perk for engaging in cabal activities sub hero.

And yes, small perks would be interesting to see (nothing over the top, i.e. the orb confers protect good maybe- but of course- they could stack so the more items they hold the more they get), and it might makes orcs more independent since now they have a motivation to raid a cabal. (And if every cabal confers a benefit- all the better since it would motivate them to act in less predictable ways)

Just give orcs a cabal power that when an Orc gives an item to Tremblefist, he siphons off a small bit of that power and confers it to the orc.
So imagine the Orc has all the items in his possession and downs them all.
ORC feels effect X as Tremblefist siphons off a fraction of power from the <insert item of power name> and grants it to ORC
ORC feels effect Y as Tremblefist siphons off a fraction of power from the <insert item of power name> and grants it to ORC
ORC feels effect Z as Tremblefist siphons off a fraction of power from the <insert item of power name> and grants it to ORC
and so on...

ORC looks at his affects and now sees:
Might of Battle: +5 dam for XX hours
Might of Battle: -10 Sv Spell for XX hours
Clan's protection: (XX hour prot good) (fortress)
Defiler of the Wilds: (Outlander)
Empire's might: +5 str, +5 dam
Ruination of Civilization: (Guards do not auto- attack when wanted Wanted) (Maybe prot order) Trib
Ravagers of Night: (maybe an aura effect) (scion)
Breaker of Balance: Saves maybe, nothing comes to mind for them.

Anyway, I haven't given a lot of thought as to what all the powers would be (or what would be a good name for them even) to make suggestions, and I think Imms are better at coming up with balanced ideas like this than I would be. Maybe they last as long as they hold the item, maybe they have timers but the orc can return to tremblefist and be granted the power.

Lastly, the fact that you thought better warcry for having the head just shows you're really clever about doing perks in less traditional and boring ways than giving them a cabal power or something, which is why you're the best guy for the job. That would not have even occurred to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the orc class to think of creative perks like that.

I like the idea, but then I would think, "For orcs to get these perks, do they too need an item of their own? Or is Tremblefist the item?"

I like the idea of Tremblefist as the item in a physical form, he dies and the orcs lose their perks. Perhaps if rival clans emerge, they can kidnap Tremblefist!

but I do disagree that the orc gains nothing.

Apart from causing potential victims to be weaker, he draws them to a place where he has a powerful ally (Tremblefist), can hide, etc.

Isn't it the same for all cabals? If I play Fort and take Imperial Codex, I don't gain any extra powers for holding it. Pretty much same with orcs in my opinion.

But alas this is the best I can do without dragging my character into matters better left to player discussion.

That said, there is so much wrongness and ignorance in this thread that it deeply offends me. Especially from people who I believe should know better (not meaning you Scar).

Player insights are important in any discussion I would argue, especially from people currently playing something relevant to the discussion. Kind of a shame to lose a player's input because he happens to be playing an orc.

I'm not sure what could be personally offensive to you as a player about people discussing generalties about the orc village and Tremblefist and it being generally difficult to counter raid compared to other cabals all things being equal.

I'm not sure what is offensive to you as a player about a suggestion aimed at trying to make orcs have more involvement in the cabal wars as a whole and setting them up to gain some minor perks for that involvement.

If you take offense at the comment about there being no point for orcs to raid a cabal, again, not sure what to say other than lighten up. It's understood Orcs have their own unique RP, same as anyone elses that can explain all things and motivate their actions. The point here is more of to give the orcs, as a whole, an incentive and a broader spectrum to work within. Then let people RP how they will.

If it was about the why can orcs even hold items remark, I suppose that would be valid. But then again, an uncaballed char can't take an item and give it to a guardian, but there is literally nothing to stop an orc from downing an item. (Other cabals have to be in control of their own item to do so) The clan is set up as a quasi cabal, and I think people would like to someday see it expanded to a full cabal.

My comments and thoughts are not meant to be attacks on the character Krunk (at least not from me) and really have nothing to do with that actual character in any way, shape or form. Believe it or not, not all things related to orcs or things said about orcs as a generalization revolve around Krunk or even have anything to do with him other than that character is in fact an orc and serves to illustrate points. Sometimes, it's just players talking about the game and tossing out ideas to generate thoughtful discourse about them.

Unfortunately, the Krunk char is used as a reference point because of the timing, but were this a few years ago, you could just substitute Alzhinghul for Krunk and it would have no bearing on the topic or the discussion except for illustrative purposes. And it is sort of flattering I guess, that Krunk as a char has had enough of an impact that he has maybe helped draw attention to the orcs and the clan in general and gotten such discussions started.

But, sorry if something I said in particular offended you, wasn't the intent. I'd just like to see a broader and more expanded role for orcs in general, which I think was the point of this whole thread and really the point of (at least mine) posts on the thread.

Statements made in this thread and my (player) thoughts:

"He (Tremblefist) is by far tougher than any of the other cabal outer guardians." - TJHuron

This statement is false. If you believe this to be true, you might also like some beachfront property I have in Arizona. It is not in my character's best interest to detail exactly why this is such a ridiculous statement, so I will not. Tremblefist is a chump.

"Since orcs recall right next to Tremblefist, who has far more dam redux than any other cabal outer and is generall a hell of a lot tougher..." - lasentia

See above on tougher. See above on character's best interest re: more dam redux, also there are no orc healers. Every other cabal (except battle) can have their outer sanc'd, and shielded, and bard song'd, and etc. etc. etc. Maybe an orc can get an ally to provide these services for Tremblefist (Scree used too... I miss him), but they are never going to be a reliable thing. The Clan only contains orcs.

Finally, re: recalling next to Tremblefist, this is very much a double edged sword. If you can't see why, I'm not explaining. See best interests.

"I recall times where Krunk plus the anathema perma were putting cabal items in the orc village. Then they just camped out there, and there was literally no chance of ever getting the cabal items back because the second you got there you got summoned into a gang." - lasentia

Perhaps you recall a time where this happened, but certainly not "times". Also, the cabal items were retrieved. No one was summoned into a gank (that Krunk was around for at least). I'm not sure anyone even tried. Krunk sure as hell didn't sit there and wait around for people and I don't recall the Anathema's doing so either.

"...this can be done at any cabal, it's just easiest at the village given the layout of the terrain, and the fact that the orc village is a whole area, instead of having a separate cabal HQ area like all the others do only helps make it easy to camp and eliminate any elements of surprise in counter raids." - lasentia

This is very much a double edged sword. If you haven't played an orc or twelve, you've probably never quite experienced the pure awefulness that is having a home town that everyone knows and that no hero is afraid to enter along with a "Cabal HQ" that possesses no Inner guardian and very little in the way of opposition in general.

"he draws them to a place where he has a powerful ally (Tremblefist)" - incognito

Tremblefist is a laughable ally. GSV is a good place for an orc to fight, but Tremblefist does not make that the case.

"There should be an outer guardian (because tremblefist is similar to a inner guardian) for the orcs. If orcs are able to take cabal items."
- Zephon

Tremblefist is to an inner guardian as the red dragon in galadon sewers is to the ancient red dragon. One is deadly to very low level PCs who don't know what they are doing, and the other can be a tough or impossible fight for a hero or even group of heros.


"Why? Because I'm sick of desked heroes that won't take any risks to retrieve and just send in lowbies. So as a few scions I've taken the orb (for example) the first time, and then if they send lowbies to get it back, I take it again and give it to an orc to give to Tremblefist.

Then the heroes are forced to get involved (except they still often don't)." - incognito

This, so much this. So so so much this. Tremblefist is too tough for your level 30 lowbie retriever? Tough ####, maybe the 3 hero characters should come and make a try for it instead of logging out.

I shouldn't have posted this much, I know, and I'm not going to add anything else to this thread, but I started like 7 reply's over the course of this thread that I didn't actually post, so I'm going to do this one and hope to feel better now.

>"He (Tremblefist) is by far tougher than any of the other cabal outer >guardians." - TJHuron

>This statement is false. If you believe this to be true, you might >also like some beachfront property I have in Arizona. It is not in my >character's best interest to detail exactly why this is such a >ridiculous statement, so I will not. Tremblefist is a chump.

I just don't know how you can say that it is a ridiculous statement. If anything it's my opinion against yours and nothing more. You basically called me a stupid, gullible asshole for having an opinion.

I'm not talking about player support. I'm talking about if you lined up each cabal guardian next to each other and fought them one by one, Tremblefist would be the toughest. Maybe there is one trick that one build can pull off that makes him easy, but, that doesn't apply to the majority.

Now if you add in player support, that changes things, as any outer can be hard as hell with healer support or whatever.

>I just don't know how you can say that it is a ridiculous
>statement. If anything it's my opinion against yours and
>nothing more. You basically called me a stupid, gullible
>asshole for having an opinion.

It is me and my logs vs. you and your opinion. My logs say Tremblefist has close to the same amount of HP as Tribunal's Captain of the Special Guards (guessing it is weakest outter, could be Maran Tara'baal, didn't check) and maybe 75% of the Village's massive giant. FYI I did this by estimating the rounds needed for Krunk to kill.

Saying you are wrong is not the same thing as calling you a stupid gullible asshole. It is simply stating that you are incorrect.

>I'm not talking about player support. I'm talking about if you
>lined up each cabal guardian next to each other and fought
>them one by one, Tremblefist would be the toughest. Maybe
>there is one trick that one build can pull off that makes him
>easy, but, that doesn't apply to the majority.

Tremblefist would be the toughest under certain circumstances. And far and away the easiest under others. Those circumstances are usually under your control. It isn't a trick. It is knowing strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them.

>Now if you add in player support, that changes things, as any
>outer can be hard as hell with healer support or whatever.

If you add player support, Orcs don't have healers. Orcs have berserkers and.... raiders? You can't do much of anything to protect/heal Tremblefist, which is probably why he is the way that he is.

I've got a log of my level 34 warrior Villager getting worked by Tremblefist. It isn't just one time, it's repeatedly. This character would not have trouble with any other outer, unopposed as he was with Tremblefist.

My opinion is based on actual experience fighting Tremblefist. He might not have as much HP as other outers. I couldn't say one way or the other. What he does have is sanctuary and can blind, weaken, poison, plague, curse and famish. No other outer can do this.

You can say I'm incorrect, but, I'm not. Not at least across the board. And I don't appear to be the only person with the opinion that Tremblefist is tough as hell for characters pre-40.

Part of the problem is thinking of tremblefist as an outer.
The orcs aren't a cabal, no outer. Tremblefist is more like
an inner. Think about it.

However, outers can basicly only dirt and disarm.

Tremblefist is basicly a mix between the two. Given the situation, I wouldnt say tremblefist is balanced for a level 30-40 player to retrieve.

I wouldnt have so much of a problem if it were set up more like a cabal. With an outer (and super tremblefist as the inner). It is pretty frustrating to retrieve against orcs right now in general.

I have no dog in this hunt and having read your logs you seem great, but you're being ridiculous if you say that tremblefist is among if not the weakest of outer guardians. Unless tremblefist and/or all the other cabal outer guardians have been changed in the last 2.5 years, then you're on the purple crack.

Use the Daevryn bash test: if you attacked and then left the room, who would win? If it is you, then you should bash.

Well, if you just did that with all the cabal outers and tremblefist, it's not even a contest. Forget everything else, no cabal outer does anything other than melee damage. They can kick dirt and disarm, but that's it. Just punch or slice or pound or whatever. Tremblefist maledicts. In more than one way. Tremblefist uses dispel good I think (my fortress guy got that I think? Do I remember right?). He does all sorts of stuff.

This is not really an argument, it's an objective fact, who does more damage, who has greater capabilities. Tremblefist simply has more to do, more ways to harm and disable, more ways to kill.

You can argue whether it's better in the GSV or better to recall somewhere or not, that's all up for reasonable debate. But the strength of a mob vs another mob is a determined set of statistics and in this instance Tremblefist is simply far harder to fight than any of the others.

As an aside, the whole "we don't have healers and bards and muters and other buff-ers" is a red herring. The comparison is not which mob *could* be the strongest, with help of one sort or another. The comparison is plain mob vs plain mob. Tremblefist wins that fight.

1. There should be an outer guardian (because tremblefist is similar to a inner guardian) for the orcs. If orcs are able to take cabal items.
2. Having another orc clan would be cool (and even if you just give orcs a cabal item to take from eachother to make one or the other faction slightly more powerful). - I like this idea a lot.
3. Giving orcs a cabal item - (I think orcs should not be able to take other cabals items the way they are set up now).

I was just asking for a little change in how they can hold an item. Yes, you are right that it is easier for other cabals to retrieve an item from the orcs. That still doesn't change the fact that it's harder to retrieve from orcs than any other cabal. And why should one cabal suffer in this respect more than others?

By the way, I like the idea of a rival clan.

Play more orcs. Can't have a rival clan with only 2-3 orcs. Everyone: MORE ORCS.

I remember retrieving the orb several times pre level 30. Mostly on shamans and paladins.

Why? Because I'm sick of desked heroes that won't take any risks to retrieve and just send in lowbies. So as a few scions I've taken the orb (for example) the first time, and then if they send lowbies to get it back, I take it again and give it to an orc to give to Tremblefist.

Then the heroes are forced to get involved (except they still often don't).

Truhukk was going to try for fortress, he got out of the clan was
stripped of some things, got turned neutral and con died.
(mostly because I stink at surviving hehe)

I took a slow 'learning' path. X says making skins is evil...
What?!?! this stuff is so good, how can that be?
Made goodies explain WHAT was evil about something before I quit
doing it. (Eventually this got old and one of the imms said
something that hinted I'd better get a move on, so I sorta
rushed the last part of his 'changes')

So I'd say yes it can be done, but seriously alot of stuff needs
to go on and I do not recommend this particular path to anyone
who can't stand constantly getting steamrolled. Everyone will
be hunting you, a bare handfull will feel pity and let you slide
so long as you stay out of thier face.

This kind of path is utterly reliant on imm intervention though.
That being said it was still a pretty fun run.

Having played NUMEROUS orcs in the past, and been working with Scarabaeus on goblins, I feel relatively safe answering this question - but am obviously not the final say. Goblins and orcs are tribal creatures in CF. To orcs in particular, the clan is everything. They don't hold greater ideals such as world domination, dark magical power, ridding the world of mages, etc.

Given that at one point orcs were able to pursue cabals, and that was removed, I think that's a very specific - and different - feature to orcs. Goblins, being a seasonal race, are an opportunity to try something slightly different and unique in a few ways. Fortunately, I think the clan/not-clan interaction Scarabaeus has come up with is very seamless and sensible for goblins, and is something that *could* be applied to GSV orcs in the future, as well.

As it stands, a non-clan orc would require Immortal involvement, and should be a rare (and well-reasoned/RP'd) happenstance. Given felar paladins, minotaur druids, and dwarven bards, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility to have a non-clan and perhaps ultimately caballed orc, but you should look at it along the same lines of an otherwise unchoosable race/class combination.