By the numbers this isn't something that is broken. But from a player's point of view there is something disheartening about not getting a command off in a fight. To make the game more interesting I'd like to see a change made to lag moves.

Bash and trip work the way they have always. They do two things, command denial and flee denial. These are two separate things. There are moves that only do one, entwine and cutoff for the warriors and these are potent skills. Command denial can be seen in things like forget or deafen. When trip/bash lands it does both. A very effective bash being the most potent.

My understanding is that the code behind the mud is much different than it was when these things were created. It is possible to do much more these days. What if lag moves were tweaked a bit so that each of these parts were broken up?

The system I'm imagining would work something like this:

Lag moves would prevent fleeing as they have always. But, there would be different parts. First you are knocked to the ground. Second you regain your bearings and put your feet under you. The third part is getting to your feet and recovering fully.

The first part, on the ground you can do nothing and commands are denied. During the second part sufficiently martial classes should be able to execute combat moves. And finally at the third part, when you're recovered you can flee. Attempting to flee before then will cause a wait period for full recovery and it would be exactly like fleeing when bashed now. The difference here is you can chose to fight back instead of fleeing.

I would also like to see some level effectiveness to bash. A mage/communer caught without protective shield after they have the ability should recover from bashes just like they do now. They should be screwed for the tactical error. But until that rank, lag moves are slightly less powerful and they can execute commands as described above. I think this would be completely fair because casters are weak having little damage reduction or output before having bash protection. Standing and casting will probably still get them killed. But, it may give them a chance and it will make things not seem so hopeless.

Lag moves are worst in two on one. Something like this would give the one the choice to execute some commands since he probably will not be fleeing. It is two against one, so the two should win. This probably will not change the outcome but it will make things seem not so hopeless.

Some changes to Greeting the Avalanche might be required, and this ability could be improved. Maybe offer edges extending the command denial or flee denial part. If the flee denial was extended to four rounds the warrior could then have the ability to execute combos. Instead of bash for 12 consecutive rounds they would get to use some of the other skills they have perfected. Bash > cross > bash > jab > jab > bash. Both sides are now executing commands, but as before fleeing is not an option.

For a change to lag like this, word of recall, vanish, scatter...anything that ends combat would need to require the user be fully recovered.

And I also play mostly Battle, with no way to counter bash or trip.

But I have no problem with the way lag works right now.

The bashability of lowbie mage classes is the price they pay for being powerful at hero ranks.

Once you get to hero most non-Villagers should not overly fear bash unless they make a mistake, which is, in my opinion, how it ought to be.

And trip? Even I know where to get flight potions, so no one has an excuse.

Mages aren't completely incapable of killing at low levels either. (except shifters. shifters suck!)

Letting mages cast through bash would make them the king of all levels. Necros, invokers, and transmuters can all do pretty high damage even with low level spells. All but the dwarves and giants would tremble in fear of chill touch, crack/jolt, and whatever elemental spell you choose.

So the mages now have incentive to fight more. Isn't it possible it will get them killed more often. If they are casting they are not fleeing. At low ranks the mage can do a little damage, but has fewer hps, tanks like a potato, while the warrior has dual wield and third attack. If bash did nothing but stop flees at low ranks the warriors still have the upper hand and win 95% of the time.

I don't really agree with that, but we are both leaving out a lot of factors. Various levels, races, specific classes, skill %, and so on.

Sure mages have less hp, but warriors aren't going to have their weapons/defense/offensive skills maxed either. Plus, at pre-25 you can pretty easily gear for hp to make up for what the mage lacks vs. the warrior. Mages defenses suck, but they can put out more damage.

The fun comes from using tactics to minimize your weaknesses and maximize your strengths.

A mage should be trying to get a jump on the fighter, preferably while he/she is fighting and/or hurt.

A warrior just needs to be sure he can see the mage coming, be healthy, and wield the appropriate weapons.

I definitely agree the warrior has the better advantage at low levels, but that is how it is meant to be. That is also only "in general" since we have examples of bad ass low level mages. Jindricho or whatever Sam's transmuter's name was is one such example. Any elf/dark-elf invoker can leverage their high damage spells, invis, and inherent sneak to rack up some kills too. Necromancer gets sleep at level 10, he doesn't need much more.

Shapeshifters suck. Or rather, I suck at them. So don't know about them. Never played conjurers or know enough to comment on low level play.

I just don't think mages have it all that bad at low levels as you seem to think. I also don't think trip is even a factor. I also don't think bash is even that hard to deal with.

Just remember they are meant to be weak early on and power houses later on. Mages die a lot more at low levels I'd, but honestly I don't even want to fathom the number of mages I've helped rank from level 20-30 that are still wearing academy leathers.

Finally, I don't think your change would even make more mages fight at low levels. I think they will still try to power level (wearing the aforementioned fine leathers) so they can see their wand setup.

I'm more interested in the level 30+ melee classes where you get all these skills and a fair percentage of the fights are bash bash bash, watch the RNG.

Can't comment on those. My warriors aren't the type to do that and I sure as hell won't ever make a mage that high level.

Just a slight observation, fair warning I've only skimmed the top half of the post(s).

If bash didn't do command denial but instead did flee denial, or did a lesser form of command denial.

As almost any warrior, I'd legitimately be (seriously) scared of muters/invokers at every rank, and I mean every rank.

Lvl 20? Scared.
Lvl 25? Really Scared.

And so on.

EDIT: Further thoughts on melee class interactions using the command/flee denial(I read the first post in detail)

Assassins are going to trump a lot of warriors most of the time if this change were to go through. I can't command deny an assassin? His defenses are good enough that it's only a matter of time before he gets a crippling kans/kote, despite my bashing.

Any martial class with a short lag damage skill (backhand/Sstrike/jab/sucker punch) becomes a lot better, if I'm reading you right.

As is stands now a lot of command denial is necessary in fights where you're winning in the round to round combat, but if your opponent were to get combat moves in, you're losing.

Just think of a polearm spec giant. Your bread and butter is complete command denial and flee denial while your polearm protects you and whittles them down so you can put down the kill-sealing chop. If your bash isn't effectively command denying them, a sword spec is going to eat you alive if he gets commands in. Ditto with an axe spec. Or a mace spec. Or any other spec, really. Not to mention the horror of fighting an assassin as said polearm spec.

And dear god. If I were an evil I wouldn't even touch Paladins. If they can even semi-occasionally get attack commands in (co wrath) through bash spam...ouch. Duergar warriors would be a thing of the past.

Scared of muters and invokers at any rank?
I mean honestly, the main reason people bash is because flee denial + command denial is the best available option for a warrior at almost any rank for killing people, but it's pretty much also the most boring. When you have ones that put out damage as well, all the better.

At low ranks the mage generally flees as soon as he is attacked because he can't win without commands, and even with them the odds are not that great. Keep in mind, the mage generally can't lag the warrior at all. So it's not a lot of risk for the warrior to still bash to deny fleeing, risk a demolish from a spell and let combat rounds kill the mage. The warrior still controls the fight for the most part. And if the warrior's bash lands, he spams it til the mage dies. Denying a mage fleeing as well as any combat options is just making him a victim. It's also quite boring in terms of gameplay, for both people, in my opinion. And this applies to classes beyond mages.

If these changes went through, lagging him keeps the mage there and prevents a degree of command denial (just not complete command denial- he can do a command that isn't flee), so he can fight back. Now as the warrior you have a choice. Hope the melee outdamages him, or execute other commands to up your own damage output in hopes you can seal before he regains the ability to flee. It makes any PK situation far more tactical which is far more interesting for both parties. And now the mage has a chance to fight back, even though he will still likely die if he does not flee, he has a chance.

The point being that instead of me being a warrior where I type bash or whatever other lag move I have (and that is pretty much all I do in every fight), I actually use other skills and my other weapon spec. When you reference the pole spec you seem to make the assumption that said warrior only has one viable tactic. Polearms are defensive, and utility. Dirt, entrap. Legsweep. Cutoff. Chop. And you have another weapon spec. So why is it so many warriors think they only have to use one, whatever lags. bash, trip, legsweep, cranial, pincer, lash. What makes these so much better than all the other options?
Because it does three things for a warrior. 1. Flee denial. 2. Command denial. 3. Shifts the fight to basically who has the better automatic skills, which almost always favors a warrior. Notice, when warriors fight other warriors, it's not as often you'll see lag spam. You see attempted maladicts to try and shift benefit 3 to their favor before going for lag. But if they feel confident in benefit 3 (they have high natural damage and riposte perhaps), they still just bash. So warriors end up with some of the best lagging options with some of the best means to capitalize on them. There's a reason a very high % of the deadliest chars are warriors and not any other class. Hell, if you're an orc, throwing in savage and cheap shot means for all those intersting skills orcs get, really they just use one all the time. Bash + high dam + RNG. Maybe spinebreaker if they're desperate.

However, if you mitigate the command denial a degree, it makes the fight far more interesting. Maybe Pincer prevents fleeing for three, but command denies for one. So it's still a valuable tactic, but you won't just spam it because of what it opens you up to.

I suppose my overall issue is in a game as varied and dynamic as CF, the way lag works really oversimplifies the mechanics of combat and really just makes it much duller. Command denial is largely the reason for this. I don't think it needs to be removed, but I do think some tweaking might make it a bit mor interesting.

And to address paladins. An evil could still just as easily tear up a paladin. They may have to actually use tactics now to do it is the difference, and that's not a bad thing. Oh no, my duerg warrior has one tough matchup because now I can't keep a paladin from wrathing me while I hit him and riposte him every combat round and end up winning with 75% of my hp. It's the end of duergars as we know it. Hardly.

The whole problem is a fight based pretty much entirely off of round to round combat is not very interesting for anyone. Sure, you got a PK, but is it really satisfying to win a PK by typing in bash bash bash? Or sitting with your cabal mate and alternating lag commands so as to perma a person? I know that I've died to true perma lag with all of my chars, and honestly, it's not being killed that bothers me. It's that I may as well just walk away from the computer because it's boring as hell. And with changes you might be able to completely command deny someone, but it should be a hell of a lot harder than it currently is.

"Sure, you got a PK, but is it really satisfying to win a PK by typing in bash bash bash?"

Immensely so, yes. Especially when your opponent getting even 1 command in can spell the difference between winning and losing. It also isn't nearly as easy as you think it is.

The re-balancing necessary would be beyond immense, and I'm pretty sure would result in most big damage skills/spells/sups getting a big fat nerf.

If an opponent getting one command off swings the fight you don't deserve to win.

Or kot/kan when fighting an assassin? Or flurry when fighting a giant sword spec? Hamstring/hurl when fighting a dagger spec? Immolate vs. Invoker? Neuro vs. Transmuter? etc. etc.

Frankly, if you need more than one command to swing the fight in your favor, you probably shouldn't engage in the fight to begin with.

Some of these are openers, they don't matter. Flurry might be a problem, but are you really attacking a sword warrior when you can't handle the flurry? (Flurry is 4 round lag which screws them if it doesn't kill.) Others just give them a chance to survive and aren't going to kill you.

So you want your foe to have no chance at all? Period?

>So you want your foe to have no chance at all? Period?

They have a chance. That chance just didn't pan out.

And we don't want their chance to go from 5% to 10%.

But that's not what we're talking about. There currently are a fair number of matchups that are only realistically winnable by one side with total or near-total command denial. When they can't put that together, they just lose.

The basher will most likely just be leaving if 1 command is all bashee gets off. Any failure to execute by bashee is death. It's not win/lose is win/flee/death.

Also consider that bashee's one command is less likely to be flee/teleport. Bashee is rolling the dice. For all we know this means more PK wins for Krunk.

You have a chance to flee, but you can definitely execute a combat move.

Definitely executing a command move means a couple of things.

It means the fight is virtually unwinnable. See pole spec vs assassin. Or against a necro/AP. If I can't command deny them, not a DAMN thing is stopping them from blind/disarm or blind/rescuing. Or as a necro hell, screw the blind, just 'o all rescue'.

You can say that you should just get a cursed weapon, or more saves, but it would drastically alter the dynamics of nearly every fight.

A necro gains nothing if they are around the rank where they get wraithform. If you have bash protection and you get bashed you made a mistake. This scenario is not something you have to worry about.

Blind then disarm is two commands. If they were guaranteed 1 command every 3-5 rounds it will take 6-10 rounds for them to execute this combo. The whole time you are using your superior melee skills to beat them to a pulp. And even after they pull this off you are still in control. So if this works you might have to flee, that's it. The other guy has his neck on the line.

It really depends on the scenario.

I'm 20s invoker and I get your warrior to miss just one bash? You'll probably still have a round or two of lag left after I kill you.

In the 20s, any decent warrior kills any invoker without DR in a straight fight in 3 rounds max.

Because if you're not, and the invoker is getting three spells in, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

That means decent gear, skill %, and tactics.

If invoker gets three vuln spells and warrior makes no saves, warrior would probably lose. One iceshards on a fire giant could kill, but that is stacking the deck and assuming nothing is done to counter.

This is what i thought you were misunderstanding and I was right. You aren't giving the damage potential of the casters as much credit as they deserve.

I think you are misunderestimating the damage potential or warriors.

It matters.

Mage wins initiative roll unless he is stupid.

I found it easier to not only win, but seal kills with the invoker at low levels. Two, three, four spells max against any raced warrior but dwarf will kill them unless all of these conditions are met:

A. He has managed to secure high end gear (from friends, scavenging, or paying for it.)

B. Has spent hours spamming up his skills without leveling at the same time.

C. He gets lucky.
---------------

Now, are you, as a mage, running around in fine leather and haven't accumulated +hp gear? Then yeah, warrior that has spent time gathering a basic damage set can kill you. Your own fault.

There just isn't any reason you shouldn't have as much or more hp than the warrior and you can DEFINITELY do more damage, faster.

Initiative is based on who logged in first vs who logged on last with 1st's commands going through first on rounds subsequent to the first.

What he probably means is that if someone runs up and bashes you while you're trying to sort your inventory they tend to win.

The person on the hunt and initiating the fight is almost always in prime fighting shape (or they wouldn't be initiating). The person being hunted might be, or might not be.

All my attacks are parried or dodged and they kill me while holding their seal from the academy and a map.

You're saying this like I haven't logged hundreds of hours playing each class in that level range.

I don't need more than 2 commands to kill most of that range with an invoker, and 1 is frequently enough.

Races with resist magic tend to need an extra command and I mostly will avoid them unless I'm feeling lucky.

Everyone should play invokers in the mid 20's because they are overpowered!

The thread wasn't meant to be about lowbie mages, and giving them a guaranteed command during sustained command denial was not my intent. It was meant to be about the situation where a melee char can fight for 20 rounds and not get a single combat move off.

Is, in my experience, relatively rare, at least by the time you get to hero and the characters that utilize such a tactic tend to be one trick ponies.

Now, when coming up the ranks it's clearly more common, but largely because most characters simply don't have enough HP to withstand ten rounds of lag against the kind of foe who is capable of carrying it out (and we're really only talking about three classes here.)

Because of that, because it's part of the gauntlet (or gantlet if you prefer) that must be run by character who will be powerful at hero, I don't have a problem with it.

Once you get to hero, who's really permalagging? Transmuters maybe, certain ranger builds, Greeting giants, but it's not very common.

All in all, I think that there are things that would serve the playerbase much better in terms of funstick than changing up a lag system that, while not perfect, is far from being broken.

> Once you get to hero, who's really permalagging? Transmuters maybe, certain ranger builds, Greeting giants, but it's not very common.

You've hit the big ones. But almost every class has moves that lag for 2 rounds. This means that a combination of just about any 2 characters can permalag any single. Bash was used as an example in this thread, but it applies to all lag moves that all the classes have. Bash is a fairly weak form of lag considering there are higher damage moves that give two round lag.

In designing these moves I believe that no consideration was given to the difference between flee denial and command denial. The reason is that bash had lag and this style of lag (the code) is what was moved to new spells/skills. It was simple and it worked. It wasn't used because it was the best or a perfect fit. Flee denial and command denial came later but noone has given serious consideration to relationship of these two separate affects and classic mud lag.

> All in all, I think that there are things that would serve the playerbase much better in terms of funstick than changing up a lag system that, while not perfect, is far from being broken.

I'm with you. I like throwing out ideas, trying to shoot it full of holes, and seeing what sticks all in hopes of contributing to making the game better. What are you thinking needs to be done.

Right off the top of my head, personally I'd like to see the following.

1. Shaman revamp. I love the idea of a war priest, but have no interest in playing a shaman as they currently exist.

2. More edges. I think one of the best ways to address peoples' complaints is via edges. People were unhappy with the sleek system. Now there are attunement edges. I think that's a great, easy solution. Personally, I'd like to see an anti-nightgaunt edge. Also, I just think that edges make the game cooler all around. I love the new Cloud Priest edges.

3. Whatever guys like Scar, Nep, Zulgh, and company can come up with. Seasonal races? An absolutely killer idea. New race_only gear? Awesome. As long as these guys keep coming up with badass things once or twice a year I'll be happy even if Shaman never get touched again.

You just have to think of the ways that affects everyone else too though. This example of invokers being one case where it would make them overly strong.

How many skills does a char like Krunk have? Quite a few I would venture. Now look at the majority of fights Krunk engages in, from the logs posted I see one skill used consistently. How many other skills are used with any amount of regularity compared to bash? Which nicely has the chance to trigger two other automatic skills. (I am not saying orcs are overpowered in anyway mind you- I'm saying they're generally foolish to use anything besides bash because of what it does) I'd wager spinebreaker or trip is up there as numbers two and three, and then the vast majority of other skills are rare to see. Sure, we all like to see a punt KB, but can you honestly tell me as a player you don't rely heavily on bash in PKs as an orc?

I suppose doing the same one command in a fight and hoping RNG works for you is fun for some, but I think there is potential for a much more interesting tactical PK system with what is already in place with just a few tweaks.

And yes, being a lag whore is actually is as easy as I think (even easier when you work with an ally). There is a reason most people flee as the first command after someone bashes them, unless they feel they can take them in straight melee combat. It's because generally no one command they execute will swing the fight in their favor, coupled with that they don't know when, or if, that command will come, and if it will do what they hope it will even if they get it off.

Logs don't tell the whole story, nor have I posted any in quite some time for various reasons. Krunk has many skills. Not all skills are appropriate to use in all fights. Bash is used consistently against those who can be bashed. Punt is used consistently in the situation that it is most effective. Crushing assault is as well. Lash I use easily more than trip. I actually took a look at Krunk's skill list and the only skills I can see that I don't use with any effectiveness is headbutt and track prey. I strongly suspect headbutt is more effective then what I use instead (lash), but for Krunk it isn't good, and track prey is a tricky skill to use correctly.

If you think that just a few tweaks is all that is necessary, I think you badly underestimate the role command denial plays in many matchups, or how utterly unstoppable some builds would be in a situation where they couldn't be reliably denied commands.

I'm going to show some Krunk ego here, but if it was really as easy as putting in one command and hoping the RNG works for you, there would be a lot more successful orcs. Bash isn't the end all be all of orc killing. Knowing when and where and how to use bash makes all the difference. You do realize Krunk kills quite a few completely un-bashable people right?

The intent of the post above was not a suggestion of complete removal of command denial. It was a mitigation of it so that there is a better chance you may have an opportunity to enter in a combat command or two when being lagged, with fleeing still being effectively denied as it is in the current system by lag commands.

Krunk's ego or PK counts or anything is not all that relevant to this. Certain players can make things more successul than others, that's just how it goes. A char can be designed to maximize PK effectiveness after all.

But I do doubt for a second a majority of all Krunk's PKs are coming from anything besides command denial in terms of entered commands. Not a fault of Krunk's of course, and keep in mind unbashable does not mean unlaggable. Command denial is extremely powerful, and I wonder what build becomes unstoppable if they could not be denied all combat commands?

Given how easy it is for two people to effectively command deny a lone target, I'm just in favor of doing things to make the fights more exciting and less frustrating for said targets, without making them easier to escape. A bash prevents fleeing for three rounds, but command denies for one. Regular lag applies to any command entered.

Basically, I see people use lag commands til writhing, and maybe then go for a KB with burst damage, but that's because they have doubts about the continued ability to prevent them from fleeing. (the guy wasted his two or three commands on things like movement for example because he was caught off guard) It's not so much combat commands they are worried about that causes them to use command denial so much as it is the person being able to escape. The overall point is that when effectively lagging someone is an option and you're confident you hold the melee advantage (which any warrior does over any mage usually), when do you not use lagging commands (be it bash, lash, trip or whatever) in favor of other non-lagging skills?

Think what you will, I've played a couple of 10 affinity 4 path invokers to burn off steam. I stand by the fact that they're one of the deadliest classes to lowbie pk with, especially if you don't give a damn about dying.

If bash doesn't completely command deny me from time to time, I'm killing a LOT more than I'm dying.

A transmuter can completely cripple a warrior, and I've been whipped up on and had relative success as a lowbie transmuter with pking with slow/mental jolt/disrupt flesh. Just imagine Jindicho if bash didn't permalag him. It'd be disgusting. Really, really disgusting, without a merc. With a merc it just wouldn't be fair for the warrior.

And you're right, a polearm spec does have other abilities against an assassin. But if he's using those abilities, he's getting kote'd. One good kote and the pole spec loses that fight. If you're spamming entrap on an assassin with unarmed defense while he spams kote, you're likely losing. Your best shot 9/10 is to make sure he doesn't get a chance to get that kotegaeshi off.

As for fighting orcs: I know that I wouldn't be nearly as scared of Krunk with many warrior classes if he couldn't command deny me. The bash/savage/cheap is scary, but a dagger spec who isn't getting perma lagged by those bashes? ####, I'm probably betting on the dagger spec if the player is moderately skilled and not just pissing commands away.

Fighting paladins:

As Garwern, if I couldn't be permalagged by bash...the first 40 levels would have been wholesale slaughter on 95% of my range. Hero range? Good luck landing a kill on me, even with my suicidal playstyle. There were multiple "hopeless" fights against Tzar/Eleagra(both exceptionally skilled players) where I wasn't going anywhere, but if I wasn't command denied and could still SoF or wrath, someone who wasn't me was dying.

As Hralpelk, I wouldn't have screwed with even the noobiest of Fort paladins without prep farming an absolute absurd amount of dam redux/resist_pos.

And as no warrior would I have gone after Allysia(your nexan bard, if I recall?) if I couldn't reliably command deny you. If you couldn't be command denied, you're not dying at all as a bard unless you kill yourself. Echoes would land sooner or later, and then it's only a matter of time before your opponent's bash gets echoed and you're out safe.

Lag doesn't oversimplify CF, if you're just using lag you're really not winning that many fights. Not to mention there are SO many ways to counter lag now.

One of my FAVORITE things to do against giant bashers is reduce, then when they flee to reduce, so they can bash you, you enlarge twice. Boom, all of a sudden you're a size up on them, but they don't get a message saying that. They're just trying to bash you and missing. Giving you three rounds to violate them. That's just one of countless ways to put tactics into the 'lag oversimplification' that everyone seems so wrapped up on.

>Think what you will, I've played a couple of 10 affinity 4
>path invokers to burn off steam. I stand by the fact that
>they're one of the deadliest classes to lowbie pk with,
>especially if you don't give a damn about dying.

I pretty well agree with this.

An aggressive 20s or so invoker can run a 10-1ish ratio pretty easily without even needing DR preps. People at that level just can't eat an OBLIT or thereabouts every round for long.

>An aggressive 20s or so invoker can run a 10-1ish ratio pretty
>easily without even needing DR preps. People at that level
>just can't eat an OBLIT or thereabouts every round for long.

I haven't done a ton of PKing in the 20s with an invoker, but I just don't get how you're killing people in one spell, or getting an oblit every round. With, say channel heat, wall of fire against low level felar mobs, or shocking touch and lightning bolt against low level arial mobs, I get an oblit less than 1/4 of the time. And there have been many times that someone jumps me in a ranking group, I flee and return and get 2-3 spells in (probably not hitting a vuln, but still using touch + damage) and they get away. I don't think you're a liar but I don't understand how you're one-shotting people unless you're cherry picking basically naked people 8 levels lower than you consantly.

Even with an invoker (after I figured them out a bit) I cant imagine myself getting an oblit unless I'm exploiting a vuln or just get so lucky at around 20. XD Maybe I'm missing something. But I still love invokers. :)

Nt

I'd be trying to exploit vulns, yes. 4 paths, go lightning/fire/ice/(dealer's choice) The choice being that I can see reasons to take air or ooze or even earth. I'd probably avoid water due to no low level damage spells.

With those first three paths you have vulns on three fairly popular races, Fire/Arials/Felar. Elves/D-elves at that level are exceptionally low on HP and probably not packing much in the way of svs, plus due to their EXP penalty you're going to have a 5-8 lvl advantage over them typically. Your toughest foes are probably going to be other giants/svirfs/dwarves/duergar, and even then I'd just break out ice/fire spells and maybe a flight/diminution potion/enlarge (depending on the situation) and try to get the jump on them.

Be a human. Lvl 20 human with 10 ice affinity invis rolls up on lvl 12 fire giant lvling on elves/orphans/voralian commoners? That fire giant is dead in one shot. Won't even know you're coming.

I'd personally go goodie(even thought it cuts down on your range), try to get an EARLY induct into fort. All of a sudden you have prot_evil, or 25% more HP on a stick, and access to fort gear train. God forbid someone hits you up with a ragged cloak. (Ragged cloak + invis pre 25 is just overpowered). Commence open season.

There'd be some cherry picking, but as a human your range is so favorable, plus as an invoker, plus almost no one at that level has any sort of svs so they're taking maximum damage...I mean, it's nasty. Really nasty. Sure, you're going to die occasionally to the hero decked ass beating warrior who lands a bash or who you underestimate, but for the most part you're killing a LOT compared to how much you're dying.

I play a ton of chars 30 and below. I got a high turn over rate.

Two combos I've done really damn well with in PK:

elf invoker (10 affinity in all the vulns of my evil foes)

and

fire giant warrior dual wielding flails

Being able to sneak around invis is just insanely good as you mentioned. Throw in your vuln spells that you maxed in 10 minutes because yo have 10 affinity and it's golden.

You're not necessarily killing people in one spell. You just might only need 1-2 commands (2 is probably about the standard) to win the fight.

Also factor in that you're targetting ranking groups often, if not always, and there's a very good chance they're not fresh. People get pretty lazy about detect invis in that range, lazy enough that if you enter Troll Forest or Akan or whatever and sprint right to them you have a decent chance of getting fireball or something off before the guy that isn't being lazy about it spots you. You DEV or OBLIT a whole group twice and odds are somebody dies from it. A kill on the first spell there is not that uncommon.

That's an example scenario. You do something different to take a single fresh character, and maybe something a little different again if you're taking on a single fresh bashable character and feel conservative, and so on.

I lose concentration twice in a row with my 98% spell and die. Happened more than once.

Means the spell you are thinking of using should be perfected before you even consider this.

Daevryn isn't saying it happens 24/7 as a lowbie invoker, he is saying that when you are fighting an invoker the amount of commands it takes to win/survive the fight for both sides allows for an extremely low margin of error. It is your responsibility therefore to perfect your damage spells (which will always 9 times out of 10 happen faster than some idiot at mist wraiths at level 15 if you put any sort of effort into it with a 23+ int character.)

A conjurer at level 27 kills people the same way an invoker does, the trick is to not tackle the first rager or village applicant you see who is ALSO hunting for free kills, with your crappy regear. You kill whoever got a lucky pit loot and work your way up slowly until you can nuke the other career lowbie playerkillers.

Finally, Daevryn won't say it outright but this will only work on a certain set of targets that slowly expands dependent on your gear, available damage reduction and whether you can squeeze a rescue in between a missed bash to extend the length of the fight by 1 or 2 commands.

The counter to this exact tactic against invokers and muters is wearing between -20 and -30 svs spell and keeping enough gold on hand to heal. Then roflstomp them as normally. When you are below 40, people with more than -20 svs spell are exceedingly rare (I myself have probably been zapped by Daevryn before, and I was probably one of the individuals with a return potion and a minimum of -15). It's the same reason transmuters can use neuro at all on the majority of the population, svs paralysis simply isn't a consideration for the vast majority of the population. There's too many other straight laggers to gear for it.

Ive never tried it but I can see an aggressive lowbie invoker doing this. Especially if you are on the offensive and get the drop on people. If you run up to someone and smack them with an OBLIT, they aren't going to be thinking bash, trip or being offensive. They're thinking run!!

Arials are my brand of choice, though:

Fire 10, Ice 10, Lightning 9, Air 6(9) plus perma fly. Get as much hp gear as you can and convert your extra trains/practices into hp as well. Mastering your spells is easy - you could have two touches done in less than an hour. Get yourself some reduce and enlarge preps and that's pretty much all you need.

...that's a similar build. I think I was something like 5-2 in PK before I wasn't able to play anymore.

It's actually pretty cool to play that type.

And I totally agree with you about your point at the end.

I used to enlarge to start off battles with bashers. If I noticed they were missing (ie 1 or more sizes smaller), I would keep beating on them. If they landed a bash or two (making me assume they were enlarged as well), I'd instantly flee and quaff two reduce potions so that if they tried to bash me again they couldn't.

It's little things like that that make PK more of a chess match more than a "smash the buttons AS FAST AS YOU CAN" style.