Hmm, I wasn't sure where to begin or bring this up, not sure if it is a bug, but I believed I would be told it was "by design". Of course I could be wrong. My question is this. Why can a warrior (or any other basher for that matter) bash an invoker if said basher has invoker shields.

I.e. Jim the fire giant calls his buddy Bill the invoker over to his cabal to shield him. Jim gets shields from Bill, then sees Russ, who is also an invoker. Remembering that Russ smacked him stupid before, Jim decides to bash Russ, who is prepared for just that. Imagine Russ' suprise when Jim bashes him through his major shield, and not just one that causes damage back to Jim, and not shield of slime. It's a funny funny situation that just doesn't make much sense. Russ is going out of his way to be prepared, but what mage can be bashed stupid that needs to cast spells? You get the idea?

Please god can an immortal respond to this and not just linger in thread limbo forever. Thanks. Because if all it takes to kill any invoker is a basher with invoker shields, then I can delete now and save myself headaches.

I suggest you stop playing at all. You keep arguing that "Other bahes protections don't work like this!" Well, the spells are not the same and none os them are called "bash-protection".

Deal with it, grow up.

Didn't you use to play a whinny "Ass-kicking" assassin? Guess you still have a lot to learn.

Søren

You can bring it in game.

I'm not going to go into details, but what you're encountering is certainly by design.

Guess you might want to go ahead and delete now.

Just because of another invoker? As if killing people with invoker shields wasn't hard enough, now you make fighting people in raids a death sentence when you have bashers. Yeah, instead of deleting, I think I'll just auto, thanks for the tip. I'd love to hear how this is game balance, but we all know thats like wishing for rain in the Sahara. Thank you for the response though. P.S. Silent Tower rocks.

You know, this is where a good player gets separated from a not-so-good
one. You could try to make your invoker kick ass despite your
realization of this unpleasant situation, or you could fold
your hand without even giving it much of a chance.

If you think that invokers being able to be bashed by shielded
attackers makes them a totally flaccid class, you are sorely mistaken.
In fact, they come ready-made with a way to handle the problem.

Did you see the movie 'Troy'? I loved that part where the little kid
is talking to Achilles and says "Are you going to fight that man? He's
the biggest man I've ever seen...I wouldn't want to fight him," to
which Achilles replies, "And that is why no one will remember your
name."


-Mek

"You know, this is where a good player gets separated from a not-so-good one. You could try to make your invoker kick ass despite your
realization of this unpleasant situation, or you could fold
your hand without even giving it much of a chance."

Believe me, I gave it plenty chance, please don't misunderstand the situation.


"If you think that invokers being able to be bashed by shielded
attackers makes them a totally flaccid class, you are sorely mistaken. In fact, they come ready-made with a way to handle the problem."

They aren't flaccid by any means. One on one fights they are among the nastiest foes to face. If the enemy has no invoker in group fights, then they are invaluable. But that isn't what I am commenting on in this thread. Frankly I think invokers are overpowered in 90% of fights. The ones where they are not are the ones where their spells do nothing whatsoever. I.e. spellbaning ragers, and invoker shielded bashers. I'd much rather see their power getting toned down then punishing a skilled player who is as prepared as he can be as a way to balance the class.

They have no chance to do anything other then die if more then one basher targets them and has invoker shields. Granted, not a lot of invokers are around with shielding, but guessing which shield they don't have and using the corresponding one accordingly is just foolish. Why don't transmuters, necromancers, and all other classes with bash protection have this same kind of drawback? What, the other invoker dispelling me while the bashers stood there and soaked up my dispels wasn't enough? I don't think this ruins the class, but it makes it not the kind of char I want to play.

"Did you see the movie 'Troy'? I loved that part where the little kid
is talking to Achilles and says "Are you going to fight that man? He's the biggest man I've ever seen...I wouldn't want to fight him," to which Achilles replies, "And that is why no one will remember your
name."

Actually I did. Thought the Achilles char was great. Does this imply you think I run from fights that aren't looking to favor me? Fighting another invoker and a warrior or warriors together was bad enough as is, being bashed despite major shielding which normally prevents this is just insult to injury. Also, keep in mind that Achilles died to that cheap ass Paris and his overpowered bow :)

Oh and yes I know you know something about invokers, just my 2 cents.

Seems to me you'd only need to get one spell off successfully to regain your bash protection. Definately not a problem worth deleting a prac'd voker over in my opinion.

Seems to me he doesn't think outside the box.

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

Only dying. But thanks for your thinly veiled slight of me.

Explain, as a warrior, how you beat three bashing fire giants with an invoker backing them up.

Any character can look bad if you cook up ridiculous situations to make them look bad. And yet, an invoker has ways out of that situation, whereas a warrior needs a lot of luck.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Invokers should not have to scan the who list to see if other invokers are on so they can fight a warrior without having to worry about being bashed through a major shield. Transmuters bash protection, while less versatile, cannot be ignored in such a way. Shamans also, Necromancers also, etc. If you want to say that it's a drawback because of the versatility of their shields, fine say that and we can all move on. But when a single class has a means of having their spell completely ignored, unlike any other bash protected class, it's odd to say the least. Again it's your sandbox. And in the situation you described above, the warrior could easily survive and possibly even win, where the invoker has a far less chance of success. Command denial does not ruin a melee classes chance of success the way it does to casting-dependant classes.

You're really pushing it. By your own admission, "invokers are overpowered 90% of the time", yet still you complain that their powers need to be strengthened? (So they cannot be killed by three bashing fire giants with invoker shields??)

Even a lich would not want to fight three bashing fire giants with an invoker backing them up.

Look at the reverse.. would three invokers afraid of one bashing fire giant (assume he's invoker shielded, sanc'd, frenzied, hasted, and enlarged)? No.. he wouldn't last 4 rounds if the invokers had half a brain.

Take a more reasonable matchup.. one bashing fire giant vs you. Assume the fire giant preps with invoker shields. Are you helpless? Is there no way to beat this monstrosity?

I'll give you a hint, you cast a spell on him before he bashes you to win.

...Rome...

"You're really pushing it. By your own admission, "invokers are overpowered 90% of the time", yet still you complain that their powers need to be strengthened? (So they cannot be killed by three bashing fire giants with invoker shields??)"

No, I just thought it odd their bash protection could be removed without a single spell being cast _on_ the invoker.

"I'll give you a hint, you cast a spell on him before he bashes you to win."

Dispel magic is by no means 100% guaranteed to strip all spells. But it sounds good in theory. It doesn't ruin the class which is what I think I came across as saying. I don't even think it weakens invokers so much. It was just different then how any other skill/spell in the game is worked so I thought it odd. I don't want to play that type of character, so I won't.

Who said dispel magic was the spell? I sure didn't.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Of course I could be wrong, it won't be the first or last time.

I could be wrong of course, but I think this is where you're supposed to think outside the box, and instead of trying to strip their shields so that your little bash shield works, perhaps just try and focus on the root problem, and cast a spell which makes them bash you badly.

You needed to strip their shields? Wasn't me.

There are a lot of ways to go about this. Dispel magic to strip shields is definitely one of them, and in some cases it would be my choice.

To take the total opposite end of the spectrum, in some cases the right choice could be to realize: Crap! Three fire axe warriors with invoker shields are coming for me and I'm not ready to win a fight like that. I'm going to cast word and set up a situation that favors me more slightly later.

There's a lot in between that spectrum. Good luck finding some of it if you care to do so.

1) What you are encountering has been there for a very long time. And yet, invokers have done just fine somehow. If you are unable to replicate the success of top-tier invokers under identical circumstances, that does not imply that we should alter the game to your liking.

2) Some classes get zero class abilities that help against Bash, and yet they have devised countertactics. Hint: Those also work for invokers.

3) You have multiple counter-countertactics in your spell list, even without resorting to items.

4) Your complaint is apparently that three or more opposing players combining their class skills can beat you, assuming you take no countermeasures and do what you do against everyone else. I admit that I have difficulty finding sympathy.

5) If you spent a zillion hours spamming spells, it's your fault. Affinity is a viable option, and you chose of your own free will to not take advantage of it. That's fine, but it means you have to stop complaining that choosing the least time-efficient option took a long time.

6) If none of the above satisfies you, you may continue to cry into your soup and delete. Team Invoker is discussing some changes to the class, but they aren't going to involve some foolproof unbeatable superbashprotection spell.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Is there a Team Shaman? Can I send Team Shaman 20 bucks to increase the pace at which Team Shaman works to make shaman more interesting?

Yeah Amen to that. Leave the classes people like alone. I've got 20 bucks to see shamans not be so increadably boring!

"If you are unable to replicate the success of top-tier invokers under identical circumstances, that does not imply that we should alter the game to your liking."

I don't know what it takes to exactly replicate top-tier success, but I figure having fun with the char was success enough. I just thought it odd that only one class who actually has bash protection can have it negated before a fight even begins. That just seems odd. It's your sandbox though.

"2) Some classes get zero class abilities that help against Bash, and yet they have devised countertactics. Hint: Those also work for invokers."

Yep, thanks.

"3) You have multiple counter-countertactics in your spell list, even without resorting to items."

If you are getting command denial these are irrelevant.

"Your complaint is apparently that three or more opposing players combining their class skills can beat you, assuming you take no countermeasures and do what you do against everyone else. I admit that I have difficulty finding sympathy."

No my issue for gameplay is I felt being able to be bashed through major shields by someone with minor shields was odd, and seemed to be counterintuitive to class skills in general and as a whole. No other class with bash protection has the same way to be lagged by someone who normally cannot, all before the fight begins. Again, it's your sandbox. I thought it a valid topic for discussion.

"If you spent a zillion hours spamming spells, it's your fault. Affinity is a viable option, and you chose of your own free will to not take advantage of it. That's fine, but it means you have to stop complaining that choosing the least time-efficient option took a long time."

The complaint isn't about time spent spamming, I can deal with that. The complaint here is that despite spending time on the spells, they become completely nonexistant in the most important sense, lag protection. Other times this happens, for example against ragers, but they at least have to save.

"If none of the above satisfies you, you may continue to cry into your soup and delete. Team Invoker is discussing some changes to the class, but they aren't going to involve some foolproof unbeatable superbashprotection spell."

No one is saying give invokers superbashprotection. They have protection from bash in their major shields, and each defend from different other things as well. It's already easy enough to lag an invoker, why are you consistently saying that them being lagged more is not devastating to invokers as a class? I'm well aware of preps for just about every occassion, and if you are fighting two warriors or even one with the bash legacy, and a lot of weight, then if they have invoker shields you are dead 99.9% of the time. That the invoker could very well be out of range is just even more frustrating. I thank you for the responses, again it's your sandbox, but I can agree to disagree. Thanks again for the responses.

It's already easy enough to lag an invoker

You're on drugs. Invokers have some of the most versatile lag protection in the game.

Why are you consistently saying that them being lagged more is not devastating to invokers as a class?

Then don't get lagged much. It's possible, and something the aforementioned successful invokers have had to deal with.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>You're on drugs. Invokers have some of the most versatile lag
>protection in the game.

I'd go further than that, actually -- it's relatively hard to make a case that they don't have the most versatile.

One could argue that mongooses and lemurs do.

And champion's sstand is pretty omnipotent, though not very versatile.

First, thanks for responding. To comment,

"You're on drugs. Invokers have some of the most versatile lag protection in the game."

Yeah they do have the most versatile, actually. Guess what, there are still a ####load of ways to lag them, even if they have major shields up. Misdirection, hand to hand specs, any two specced warrior with two different lagging moves can lag any invoker.


"Then don't get lagged much. It's possible, and something the aforementioned successful invokers have had to deal with."

Alrighty then. It's also possible to never get ganged. Does that mean it happens? Heh. Anyways, thanks again for responding. Did not think this would be such a hot topic. Just thought it very odd the way it was set up. We can always agree to disagree.

>Yeah they do have the most versatile, actually. Guess what,
>there are still a ####load of ways to lag them, even if they
>have major shields up. Misdirection, hand to hand specs, any
>two specced warrior with two different lagging moves can lag
>any invoker.

Any 2 specced warriors with two differen lagging moves can lag any player. Not just any invoker. Stop trying to focus on fighting 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 or 1 on 4. We have no plans to go making one class uber against such odds.

>"Then don't get lagged much. It's possible, and something the
>aforementioned successful invokers have had to deal with."

There are things an invoker can do (beyond bash protection shields) to help them against bashing. You however will never get past the fact that 2 warriors can kill you, so I'm not even sure the exercise is worth presenting to you.

>Alrighty then. It's also possible to never get ganged. Does
>that mean it happens?

Part of the strategy of ANY player is to know when to fight, and who your enemies & allies are. If you stumble across 3 specced warriors by yourself...I don't see why you'd go charging in without a little planning (Is there a duo'd transmuter with them, is there a thief with them, is there a healer who can sanc them around, is there an invoker who can shield them around, etc). These problems exist for every player, not just invokers.

>Heh. Anyways, thanks again for
>responding. Did not think this would be such a hot topic. Just
>thought it very odd the way it was set up. We can always agree
>to disagree.

It's not a hot topic. You and the immortals are really the only ones talking. The Immortals are telling you it isn't going to change and there are things you can do to prevent it. That really doesn't matter, you've already deleted and I doubt you'll ever play an invoker again because you can't get past the fact a warrior can find a strategy to bash you, and you can't find a strategy to stop them, even though they exist.

I'm going to point this out in some vague hope of helping you see the light, not in an attempt to bust you down, just so we're clear on that:

>If you are getting command denial these are irrelevant.

That's... really not true. It's analogous to a healer player saying: "This sanctuary commune ####ing sucks. How is it supposed to prevent any damage when I can't commune it in combat?!"

The warrior should have to have the same shield you are using in order to bash you. It annoyed the hell out of me that a warrior with lightning shield and nothing else was bashing through my shield of flames. It seemed kinda lame.

No text!

Whoops, maybe I was.

That your spam practice entitles you to something. We're mostly trying to get away from that mindset.

Invokers are a tough and versatile class. They also have some weaknesses and drawbacks other classes don't. Personally, I think they're still fun and great given those drawbacks. If you don't, there are a lot of other character choices.

Beyond that, see Valg's comments below.

"That your spam practice entitles you to something. We're mostly trying to get away from that mindset."

Nope, but I would like the spell I spent hours mastering to actually have a use and not be completely ignored just because of another invoker. If the shields perhaps only were ignored to the ones that damage the player back when they try and bash. I.e. shield of flames, ice etc, but not water, wind or the like. Again it's your sandbox though.

"Invokers are a tough and versatile class. They also have some weaknesses and drawbacks other classes don't. Personally, I think they're still fun and great given those drawbacks. If you don't, there are a lot of other character choices."

Fun class yes, there are a lot of other character choices, which is why I stopped playing the invoker. I think invokers are sickeningly overpowered in 95% of one on one fights. The problem is the other 5% of fights you have virtually no chance in, there wasn't much of a middle ground it seemed. Thanks again for the responses.

"I think invokers are sickeningly overpowered in 95% of one on one fights. The problem is the other 5% of fights you have virtually no chance in"

I think you make a better argument against your case than for it with this statment.

If you can't beat the 5% ####ing run.

Why do so many equate enjoyment with absolute domination?

I think invokers are perfect the way they are. And while I very much agree a character shouldn't be sitting there, casting the same spell over and over, the person should be out interacting, still with the whole 100% thing, it would be hard to get to shields in any path, except maybe fire or lightning. Windwall, cone of cold, stoneshatter, create stream/drown/tsunami aren't really spells you master just ranking. I wish there was another way to master them that seemed more in character, but I don't know any. If there is, I couldn't ask for just a little hint, could I?

I foresee alot of gnome invokers carrying reduce preps in the near future.

'SHIELD OF FLAMES' 'SHIELD OF WINDS' 'SHIELD OF EARTH' 'SHIELD OF ELECTRICITY' 'SHIELD OF WAVES' 'SHIELD OF ICE' DESHIELD
Syntax: cast 'shield of flames'
cast 'shield of winds'
cast 'shield of earth'
cast 'shield of electricity'
cast 'shield of ice'
cast 'shield of waves'
deshield

These spells form a shield which PROTECTS the invoker from BASHES and
throws, but only one type of shield may be up at one time. These spells
are learned when one has mastered the first shield of the element.

Each of these shields provides some form of additional protection, which
might render certain forms of attack less effective or cause damage to the
attacker using those certain forms of attack against the invoker.

An invoker may cancel these shields by using the "deshield" command.



Feel free to fix helpfiles :P
or we will continue with "immortal conspiracy" trends.

They do protect against bashing. A home security system protects my home against burglary. It doesn't mean that I will never, ever get robbed.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The helpfile says nothing about this drawback to invokers. Hence the recent posts, hence the request for an updated helpfile. If you want to leave it ambiguous I certainly can't force you to change it, but don't get mad at him for requesting it, detailed helpfiles make posts like mine that started this thread non-existant. If we are aware of everything we have little to discuss, because everything is out in the open. Thanks again and I realize you have more important stuff to worry about then updating helpfiles, but perhaps I could send something in to help?

That putting that in the helpfile would actually be counter to most invokers' interests, as suddenly every warrior with voker shields would be gunning for them.