Would it be possible for the imps to review the policy on "an immortal". I understand the need for imms to have wizi-invis to hide from the masses and be able to do their job. What I don't understand is why when an immortal is communicating directly with a player (as in not through a mob or emotes) they need to hide their idendity. This should likely also apply to the immortal comments of a PBF as well.

I think we are at a point where the anonumity is not neccesary and the lack of clarity just creates an enviornment of speculation and conspiracy theories.

Concerning Wizinvis. I completely understand the reasons for the skill, and why it's used. That being said, I think it would greatly benefit the game if the staff maybe tried to make a little bit more effort to not be wizinvis all the time. Baerbaer is pretty good about that, as is Whiysdan, and some of the other imms at times. But when is the last time we had one of those days where the imms just all decided to take their Wizi flags off? I guarantee if there were 8 immortals visible at a prime hour there would be more players online. People miss seeing that sort of thing, and I think it adds presence to the mud the more imms are visible often. With the exception of being overloaded with work, or trying to dodge a follower, or being totally sparsed out afk, visible is good imo.

Just some feedback, maybe other people also would enjoy seeing more visible immortal time.

Totally agree.

nt

The only thing that's really not tagged PBF-wise at this point is handing out XP, including when roles are flagged. I'd be willing to consider revisiting that.

With respect to being 'An Immortal' for enforcing the rules or fielding prays, I don't see that changing. Maybe it's not something you think of because it's not something you would personally do, but people being busted pretty frequently try to make it about who is busting them and how they killed a character they think was played by that immortal six years ago and that must be the reason they're getting busted. Dropping the Axe of Conquest for your other character isn't okay whether it's me saying so or Whiysdan saying so.

Why are not all rewards logged in the pbf? Some examples are RC winners. Shouldn't any change to a player file, be it good/bad be logged in the pbf?

Why are people paying for a pbf that we've been told was unedited, but many players are alleging you the staff are editing them? Is this true?

Side note - why can't we see the luck stat in our score? Every other stat is visible. Whats the logic behind hiding that information from players?

>Why are not all rewards logged in the pbf? Some examples are
>RC winners. Shouldn't any change to a player file, be it
>good/bad be logged in the pbf?

Pretty much every RC win prize is going to show up in the PBF somewhere. It's not like the PBF in any way hides that you have a third legacy or a spell that nobody else has.

I'll usually put an immortal comment in about mine. Not everyone does it the same way. Sometimes they'll note the win in the history and figure out the prize later.

Consistency here wouldn't be the worst thing but honestly if the biggest gripe someone has with our administration is that they had to read the skill list to see that a character had some cabal edges or chain plague or whatever I'll consider that a win.

>Why are people paying for a pbf that we've been told was
>unedited, but many players are alleging you the staff are
>editing them? Is this true?

Only Zulghinlour even has the access to even theoretically edit. This has been true since the server move.

On the other hand, it is possible for an immortal to choose to make a comment that doesn't go into the PBF. This is intended for rules enforcement information and honestly, it does not get used a lot. Most characters, even ones with giant PBFs full of comments, don't have any comments of this kind.

This is an exhaustive list of things I've seen the non-PBF comments used for this year:

1) Rules enforcement or things relating to rules enforcement.

Maybe you lose/drop link and someone else prays or e-mails about it, saying you did so to avoid dying or whatever. After we investigate it there's probably going to be a comment going in about it. If it's a pretty ambiguous case where it's not clear that you did it to save your life or that you would have died if you hadn't done it, etc., we're mostly going to just want to make a note of it so we've captured that history if it comes up again.

My feeling is that including this kind of thing when relevant in a PBF doesn't really make the PBF better, it just distracts you from what you actually care about. It shouldn't color your character for posterity that you were accused of something that we looked into.

2) Coordination between staff needing something done that they don't have the permission or timing for.

Maybe Whiysdan wants to make you High Herald ASAP but he never runs into you. He might leave a comment asking for anyone to grant you the induct power and set you up if they see you first. (Probably along with asking someone he thinks will actually see you to keep an eye out.)

This isn't exactly something that would necessarily be bad for you to see, but it's clutter among what are hopefully more exciting comments, and maybe Marcatis wants to preserve the illusion that it wasn't really Scarabaeus that had to actually empower you because of when he can play.

3) In exactly one case I've seen an argument between two immortals about a character go back and forth in the non-PBF comments. One of the people having the argument is no longer with us and you probably don't need to worry too much about this.

I accept that you may find this answer, on the whole, unsatisfying but there it is.

>Side note - why can't we see the luck stat in our score? Every
>other stat is visible. Whats the logic behind hiding that
>information from players?

It's something that's hard for you to objectively measure, as a character, whereas something like strength is easy.

The exhaustive list of things affected by this stat has been stated elsewhere by me. It was originally one of Jullias' projects that no one since has done much with.

Makes sense to have an imm-only field, I agree.

The PBF thing is not the case. I've compiled a pretty exhaustive list of RC rewards and some aren't even in the pbf. Tavlin (start conspiary theories now!), Caerdryn, Zosi, Balta are all examples of characters who have pbfs, but no mention of the reward they got. Thats odd, especially given that 2 of them were imms and one got a ton of imm love, including from you personally.

It seems like the more information the better we can debunk bitter players making up stories (example is edited pbfs, I can't imagine Zulg has been editing peoples pbfs).

Also can we just show the luck stat in score/pbfs already? As someone who has had both unlucky/lucky edges I'd argue its far less insignificant then you'd allege.

More information = always good.

>The PBF thing is not the case. I've compiled a pretty
>exhaustive list of RC rewards and some aren't even in the pbf.

Shoot me a list, and I can figure out how to add it.

>Also can we just show the luck stat in score/pbfs already? As
>someone who has had both unlucky/lucky edges I'd argue its far
>less insignificant then you'd allege.

It's not. Really. It plays most in thieves (ties into Jullias' other pet project), and hasn't really been added to very many other things, and ultimately ends up being fairly insignificant (without looking at code, I'd guess +/- 10% at the most on any given skill check)

And your post clears it up perfectly :)

>>The PBF thing is not the case. I've compiled a pretty
>>exhaustive list of RC rewards and some aren't even in the
>pbf.
>
>Shoot me a list, and I can figure out how to add it.

Turns out we were adding it to a useless history section. I've moved the additions to timeline instead.

>The PBF thing is not the case. I've compiled a pretty
>exhaustive list of RC rewards and some aren't even in the pbf.
>Tavlin (start conspiary theories now!), Caerdryn, Zosi, Balta
>are all examples of characters who have pbfs, but no mention
>of the reward they got. Thats odd, especially given that 2 of
>them were imms and one got a ton of imm love, including from
>you personally.

What I'm saying is the reward is generally (I can think of no counterpoints) in the PBF even if it's not in the comments.

For example IIRC Tavlin has a Scion cabal edge which you can infer is a reward even if it's not called out as such.

If people feel strongly about it I don't have a problem with trying to call out what people got as RC prizes in PBF comments going forward. I don't think anyone on staff ever thought very hard about it in the past.

...I'd rather see something specific than this (the only thing from Tavlin's PBF re: RC)

Wed Apr 27 20:14:16 2011 by 'Thror' at level 39 (131 hrs):
First place in the April RC. Please review imm comments for rewards to be handed out when he's next online.

Those RC rewards were the Druk'trar Swarm and Final Word edges, FWIW. He also thought maybe some additional immxp but I don't think that happened. I could be wrong on that last bit.

Nice list.

I was opposed to the "hidden" comments when I first heard about them.

But then I took a step back and put on my "administrator hat" and realized that the GM screen is there for really good reasons, and the shady stuff that could be allowed to happen by its existence is kind of a necessary and unlikely evil.

I can't seem to find it through search. Searching for "luck" on gameplay yields 22 pages of results. I looked for topics back to '05 that might contain it and only found one nugget by Zulg where he says luck has no factor in skill improvements.

I also tried "luck" and "Daevryn" and found nothing.


Side note: It's tough to stay on task searching through pages of results. You see so many discussions that you want to read!

Punishment is not the only issue at hand. Would it be reasonable to try removing the 'an immortal' gag for 2 weeks or a month just to see how it goes. At the end of the time period get player and immortal feedback and then make a decision as a staff with a better understanding of positives/negatives of the change.

I, personally, while busting someone for clear and totally unambiguous cheating, have been on the business end of too many rants to ever think that's a good idea. If I couldn't handle those things anonymously, I probably would just deny people I caught and not tell them why, and I don't think anyone would prefer that.

It's bad enough to sit through, say, a racist rant that's meant for Valg as someone who isn't Valg (but the player in question thinks I am) without helping those people to get it "right".

Beyond that, I think it's important for us to be able to separate our enforcement hats from our religion/cabal/RP hats.

I really miss Valg.

I would like to validate this comment. I have had people in ROTD, and they have called me Valg. A few times I have corrected them in attempt to calm a crazily ranting person down. In such cases I was immediatly told I must be Nep. I know that I am nice. I know that I do NOT bring people up there and act like a power tripping crazy person. It is very possible that I can be nice to a fault. It still never fails that I will get called Valg and if not Valg, Nep (they never say Daevryn in ROTD).

I also miss Valg.

And even BoltThrower. In addition to Valg and Nep.

However I do have to say that I'm probably the one Imm who will most frequently just vis in ROTD. I just kinda don't care if they know it is me busting them.


However if I'm having a conversation with someone about a pray they sent up about game mechanics? Yeah I'm staying wizi. If I'm visible to a mortal and talking to them, I'm the God of Magic and might turn them into a toad if they look at me wrong.

If they can't figure out the syntax to choose an edge that has apostrophes, the God of Magic could care less. Do you see the distinction?

Meaning, were you to vis in rotd, people naturally respect you. I don't mean that to say the other imms do not garner that goodwill but as a general persona Twist is, like, always the good guy, even when busting on someone.

...but not necessarily true.

Possibly true in comparison to the (undeservedly bad) public image of Cador and Valg, though.

However I think some of the current playerbase, if I were to bring them to the ROTD, would feel quite the opposite. At least that's the sense I get.

Which all the more underscores my point.

The perception of most of the playerbase is you're more open and transparent in regards to what you do, how you do it, who you play, how you post, why you post, on and on, all of which has earned you a pretty deep well of goodwill.

The fact that you gleefully beat my duergar ass as Mochodin made me hate you only just a little bit. I mean, what kind of Maran kills a duergar frozen by stone skin fillet? Just rude. And you weren't even freaking near Hamsah or Arkham - you must have cheated to find me in that 2 hour span.

>Meaning, were you to vis in rotd, people naturally respect
>you. I don't mean that to say the other imms do not garner
>that goodwill but as a general persona Twist is, like, always
>the good guy, even when busting on someone.

Every time I've vis'd in the ROTD the person ultimately got denied, because even when it's an Implementor telling you that you're doing it wrong, they continue to fight you, tell you the logs are lying, blow up, question your heritage, compare your mother to a crack-whore, etc.

>Every time I've vis'd in the ROTD the person ultimately got
>denied, because even when it's an Implementor telling you that
>you're doing it wrong, they continue to fight you, tell you
>the logs are lying, blow up, question your heritage, compare
>your mother to a crack-whore, etc.

Your mother is a crack-whore! Zing!

Miss you dude. Every time I make a comeback character, which is far and few between, I think of you, the berkley crew, smug, diku, Nimbus, etc. and get sad. This is a young man's game now. I can't keep up with all of the new stuff. Hope you're still enjoying it behind the curtain =)

>>Every time I've vis'd in the ROTD the person ultimately got
>>denied, because even when it's an Implementor telling you
>that
>>you're doing it wrong, they continue to fight you, tell you
>>the logs are lying, blow up, question your heritage, compare
>>your mother to a crack-whore, etc.
>
>Your mother is a crack-whore! Zing!
>
>Miss you dude. Every time I make a comeback character, which
>is far and few between, I think of you, the berkley crew,
>smug, diku, Nimbus, etc. and get sad. This is a young man's
>game now. I can't keep up with all of the new stuff. Hope
>you're still enjoying it behind the curtain =)

Man, if Nimbus or Vassagon came back I'd consider rolling one up right then and there!

As for old times, I still remember one of the singaporean guys playing a shadow transmuter giving my just married paladin a ruby collar as a wedding gift. This is circa 1996. Good times.

Don't forget "call you a Jew".

If you weren't so anti-semitic you wouldn't view that as an insult.

One time they busted me for something. One time they realized nothing bad had happened and poofed me back into Market Square of Galadon.

nt

An immortal (Twist) tells you 'I heard what you did in the club last night'

clear distinction between the administrator twist and character twist. Not that you are fans of making new togles but you could always set it up so that people can/can not see the (twist) by char/IP to fine tune the system against habbitual cheaters.

I can't remember specifically which offhand, but I know some Immortals had begun using various alias' when they were wizi, but still making some interaction without being visible. I think this would be good overall, and could at the very least be stolen from a basic title they use.

As admin for rules/bugs/newbie prays/etc -
. An Immortal tells you 'X'.

As visible immortal -
. Twist tells you 'X'.

As an IC Immortal, but not wanting to be vis and harassed by the world -
. The God of Magic tells you 'X'.

I recall (the first two weeks of returning) sitting in ROTD trying to take a different "mentoring" approach with mortals about being caught cheating and how to improve their experience by not breaking the rules. Valg was willing to humor my approach.

We sat in the ROTD with this character for over two hours. It was a complete waste of time and ultimately the character ended up deleting rather than accepting the slay/purge that was warranted for his/her actions.

Throughout much of that conversation and those attempts, I was belittled, named a number of different immortals and the experience was a bust for both parties.

I agree, nothing will come out of showing a player who is punishing them and it will likely result in more lost productivity.

Theoretically if you remove the whole "who are you" phase of the rant you save some time.

The people who are going to that extreme are going to that extreme if you show your name or not. What about the 99% of players who don't do that.

If you're getting the name, the same people that go through the "who are you" rant will likely go into the "It's just X, he's an ass and just hates me."

The 99% of the players who don't go to that extreme are MOSTLY going to be avoiding the RotD, and if they DO get in trouble somehow, but are reasonable adults, they're going to accept WHOEVER they interact with as An Immortal being an Admin, and treat them accordingly.

I don't think I've been RotD'd in over a decade, but I do get desc room'd frequently (Yeah, I'm lazy about it), but I politely acknowledge that I know better, and will get right to it, then pray when I've made it to what I think will be acceptable. Occasionally some further details are pointed out or corrected, and I get out in a reasonable time.

>Punishment is not the only issue at hand.

What do you think that it is beyond punishment? Honestly that's the second biggest thing I see wizi used for (the first being sitting around upstairs working on other things)

Pray 'Hey this little thing here might look buggy'
An immortal tells you 'Oh wow never saw that before why don't you bug board it'

There is plenty of dialog between player and imm that does not take place in the realm of the dead and knowing who helped you out might help balance out the punishment room and have fewer people accusing valg/nep/raybaer of everything.

for me, when I'm answering an OOC deal, I don't want it to be Twist tells you 'Oh damn that's fugly, yeah we'll check that out.'

It's an illusion thing for me, I guess.

>for me, when I'm answering an OOC deal, I don't want it to be
>Twist tells you 'Oh damn that's fugly, yeah we'll check that
>out.'
>
>It's an illusion thing for me, I guess.

It's a roleplaying thing. When you are visible, you are Twist...the Immortal of Carrion Fields who watches over Magic. You aren't the admin who is going to answer a pray whether or not something is a bug. That is one of the expectations as a visible immortal, you're in character.

I don't see how answering a question about whether something is a bug or not as Zulghinlour or An Immortal makes a difference. What I do see it as is a great means for a phishing attack to see if the Immortal you are looking for is online.