Coconut's post below was a troll. Fine. Banning him was harsh, but thems the rules, I guess. What I very much take objection to is Rayihn's apparent outing of the player's active character via this post:

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=41124&mesg_id=41130&page=

In that same thread and in reply to her own post, she writes that "imms are subject to the same rules as everyone else." If that's so, why out the player with imm-privileged knowledge, no matter how irked she was? No one was speculating on the who the player might be, either. This ends up at the very least creating potentially biased interactions in game and the reason a lot of us play is to escape reality. I know a few players who don't like to share who they're playing with anyone because they feel like they get discriminated against in-game as a result. A few examples of when this taboo has been broken in the past:

Regarding Orcfest
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=32977&mesg_id=32977&page=

Regarding a player outing himself
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=27541&mesg_id=27541&page=

"Official" Imm stance on players deleting, posting, reactivating
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=35943&mesg_id=35943&page=

Regardless if the player deserved it, regardless if Rayihn was irked, this shouldn't have happened. Or am I completely wrong?


- Baron

That doesn't give me the slightest clue who the character is.

Secondly, if someone tries to claim protection under the rules while breaking them... well, don't be surprised if they don't get to play that game.

I just have a couple points about this:

1) Imms are more valuable to the game than whiners.
1A) Active imms make the game more fun than tools like the guy who got 'outed'.
2) It's a game, who cares if people know who you play?
3) With as little free time as we have, why spend it on drama? Just have fun with the game and forget about everything else.

To be honest, I'd have just deleted the dude's silly post and moved on - but I do know if my wife was Rayihn she'd have blasted him a lot more harshly than Rayihn did. Hell, my wife would've made the dude cry. Then again, I've been told my wife can be a bit of a bitch.

Now I want to go out for martinis with your wife.

n/t

nt

One, nobody was outed. Maybe you just have an OOC connect that makes you know who it is.

Two, people who throw childish fits deserve to be outed. I have no sympathy.

1) It wasn't the right guy.

2) Probably because we see people melt down over dying all the time, we don't think "You're that guy who melted down over getting killed in his guild this week" is very specific. That could be, like, six of you.

Daevryn,

1) I know it wasn't the right guy, that's the reason that she wrote the retraction. She originally wrote it under the assumption that it was the same person. However, there was no hint in the context of the original post to lead anyone to suspect who the character was.

2) I'm quoting Rayihn here: "Someone got pk'd somewhere they thought they were totally cool to chillax and of course because someone was brilliant enough to find this guy (In Hamsah) obviously an imm was cheating and the mortal char is imm played cause only someone with super sweet imm powers would have found this guy (in Hamsah - cleverly hidden in his guild).

There might be a little more to this story but this is basically how it got laid out from my POV."

This ties the who: Coconut on the forums and the character she believed got pk'd
This ties the where: Hamsah, in their guild, hidden (narrowing it to assassin or thief)
This intimates when: Recent enough that the person would still be angry over it, which is usually within a day or two.
This intimates the ingenuity of the aggressor: Someone used unconventional means to locate a hidden person they suspected was in their guild.

I'm not arguing that it wasn't the right person. I'm arguing that the imms should refrain what they scold others for. Had Rayihn guessed correctly, the aggressor would have known who the character/player was, anyone the aggressor talked to about the fight would have known, anyone the victim would have talked to IC would have been just been made aware of who the character was.

Putting it in the context of a player instead of an imm, how would you have handled the situation if Batman posted a nonspecific, angry question, then Baronmysoul posted a reply saying, "He's just mad because he got killed in Voralia yesterday by a Tribunal with his warranted Maran."?

I'm really not trying to instigate an angry rant. I'm telling you that as a player, this kind of behavior from the administration is frustrating and disheartening. Especially so because it's something that's been addressed in the past with negative connotations by other imms.

I think this is all pretty stupid to throw a bitchfit about, but for the sake of voicing my views, I'll discuss this AS IF Cocunut WAS the person in their guild.

You're reading into her words way too much. I was barely sure she was talking about my victim and I'm the one who killed him. Furthermore, my victim wasn't necessarily hidden in the conventional fashion, I can think of a number of ways 'hidden' could be, especially in Hamsah Mu'tazz. Or it could be something as simple as a dropped link to avoid appearing on where. That's still hidden too. so one of your 'ties' is blatantly wrong. There's no possible way to tie Poster to Character unless Poster does it or you're the Killer of Poster. And since Poster sort of threw the first stone by outting himself, it's essentially all moot.

And I mean that in the nicest way possible. Your trolls are BRILLIANT. Often subtle.

This ties the where: Hamsah, in their guild, hidden (narrowing it to assassin or thief)

Where the #### do you get the part that it's an assassin or thief? RayBaer was being a wee bit sarcastic when she said "cleverly hidden in their guild". Also, the original poster basically admitted it was a troll. I would have been fine with RayBaer banning him and just deleting the post. She didn't character assassinate anyone (already one person assumed it was him and was wrong lol) she just stated an annoyed vague fact that turned out to be incorrect.

But brilliant trolling. Kudos.

Player was *hidden* in the ghoul tunnels. He thought nobody will find him there.

Paladin came straight to him there and killed him.

Since this player thought that nobody will come there just out of curiosity, he blamed imms that they told this paladin where to find that player.

Since that player bitched a lot, a lot of players knows what happened. And saying this to coconut (if coconut would really played that character) would tell to everyone involved into that conflict that coconut played exactly that player.

No, I'm not any of them, but I've been close enough to hear this poor noob's whining.

Giving out players using their imms knowledge is a ####. Thanks god there are only Daev and Rayhn do this (for now), probably it's the family habit. Let's hope it will not spread further and will not become a nice tradition to piss off players who managed to offend imms or their bddies/favorite vets (like isildur).

Now see, here you're painting me into a corner where I can't effectively prove you're wrong without giving out more information that you'll complain if I give out. :P

I thought about that AFTER posting. So let's leave this until I'm gone.

But I think you realised that you did a wrong thing (I really HOPE you did), even if you won't admit it here. So I end my vendetta on you and we will see how you will do later :)

What I got from what Rayihn said was "someone got wtf pwned in hamsah, and cried about it, and that person is probably coconut."

Problems:

10+ people prolly got killed him hamsah recently.
"hidden" doesnt mean "has the hide skill" it could just mean sitting in the guild, as her post included other facetious language.
I don't care, and neither do most people.
If he brought the bitching to the forums, specifically calling imms out for cheating, its too bad for him if someone really takes the time to investigate who it is based on the responses.

Oops. Edited because I just read the thread and realized several other people said the same thing I did :). No need for me to add to it.

>Putting it in the context of a player instead of an imm, how
>would you have handled the situation if Batman posted a
>nonspecific, angry question, then Baronmysoul posted a reply
>saying, "He's just mad because he got killed in Voralia
>yesterday by a Tribunal with his warranted Maran."?

In Dio's, how Batman would have been treated depends on the content of the post and Baron would have sat a week in ban for speculation. I'll also point out, for the validity of the comparison, that Rayihn didn't give away this much info about the character.

As far as I know, Imms are more lenient with this kind of discussion than VIPs. We are generally more lenient towards trolling than Imms, but Imm cheating is not a good topic to bring to Dio's either. I don't think that either forums like character speculation very much, but officials is a safer place to do so since we in Dio's have a rule that forbids it. Discussing areas explore and questy stuff is also more tolerated in officials than Dio's (this is assuming that stuff wouldn't slip by our radar for some reason) and thus belongs to this forum.

As for character speculation, I don't know exactly what the Imm stance to that is. They probably won't like it, but might tolerate it to some extent.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trolling, so I can only say that you're reading a lot into the post that isn't actually there. I think you're batting around 0% on the conclusions that you drew.

Which, to me, makes the point pretty well that there isn't anything that identifying in there.

Fine, I see something that 90% of people don't. I don't troll. I'm actually really pissed by what Rayihn posted, even though it did not affect me in any conceivable way. I'm also pissed because I think it's wrong that:
a) an imm nonchalantly and publicly broke one of their own rules, and
b) most people think that's perfectly fine

What I really don't understand is the psychology of people having no problem with administration acting that way, but crying foul if it came from any player. As DurNominator said, on Dio's, the player would have been banned for a week for speculation ban. On Officials, players get lambasted for such behavior. I've provided several links in the original post from Officials where other imms have spoken out against character outing/speculation.

Daevryn,

Here is the direct quote (again). You should read it again:
"Someone got pk'd..."

...somewhere they thought they were totally cool to chillax and of course because someone was brilliant enough to find this guy (In Hamsah) obviously an imm was cheating and the mortal char is imm played cause only someone with super sweet imm powers would have found this guy (in Hamsah - cleverly hidden in his guild).

There might be a little more to this story but this is basically how it got laid out from my POV.


Even if that narrowed it down to 8 players (and that's a big overestimation considering the specificity she laid out - Hamsah, guild kill, recent), do you really think that doesn't create an unfair bias towards that character? Thankfully, she was wrong. However, even in her retraction, she said she realized it wasn't the same person, but it might have been related.

For arguments sake, say she was spot on. What would that mean? As an imm, if you know character A is tied to player A, what would you do? Both Twist and Lyristeon have admitted that they've given that character negative attention. I know about things you yourself have done (if you want specifics, you can e-mail me since you wouldn't want this info made public). As a player, someone could be a total ####. "Well, player A is a whiny bitch, so I'm going out of my way to gang down that person every chance I get." These things have actually happened before.


Rayihn,

You can continue not defending yourself. You don't have to acknowledge me in any way. I'm okay with that, actually. I think at the very least, though, you owe an apology to Coconut (even though he's banned) for assuming you knew who their character was and trying to out them. If the anonymously posted "That player" is correct, you an an apology to them for using imm-privileged knowledge in a public setting to try to humiliate the player. The only thing your post had to offer was snarky bitterness in an attempt to discredit and embarrass someone because of more allegations of imm cheating. Yeah, most of us know the imms cheat and really don't care. I've laid out my objections and I'd be just as upset if any game admin did that kind of stuff. If there had been no precedence for player-character-revelation, then I wouldn't be upset at all. That's not the case. There shouldn't be any double-standard and I'll continue to stand up and bitch about it whenever I feel that imms are stepping way out of line. Why? Because y'all should be held to a higher standard than the players.


Rest of the Playerbase,

Shame on you for not speaking out against it, especially those of you who jump down other players' throats when they reveal themselves or other characters.

>Rest of the Playerbase,
>
>Shame on you for not speaking out against it, especially those
>of you who jump down other players' throats when they reveal
>themselves or other characters.

When players go vs imms, they are becoming "unfavored players". As a result, you will be in an unwritten blacklist. No one will write anything about you, but they will know you as a "person who dare to go against imms". So say bye-bye to leaders positions, immlove and etc.

Do you think players want to lose all that? It's a classical dictatorship situation, disguised as democracy :)

I did a ####ass move long time ago (I was wrong and my act pissed imms quite a lot. Plus, I've offended Daevryn something like two months ago) - and still feeling consequences. Not a lot, but I feel it.

Baer and I have crossed swords before and I've had stuff like "I don't like this player but I have to admit I'm warming to this character" from her on my pbf before. Oh, on my leader tatted character, by the way.

Then conversely, I've had what I thought were unfair comments... on another leader character. Who had a crazy amount of imm exp.

So clearly it's not stopping me getting leadership positions. What has stopped me was, I think, fair. e.g. That I was too nice for an evil, say. But she made ic attempts to make me act more evil first.

Personally I respect the fact that ultimately she addressed what I perceived as bias towards fort characters by taking on the imm-dom of an evil cabal. While I recognise people then complained about her splitting her time, I think it worked out for the best.

I think to get on the wrong side of the imms, you typically have to break the rules. In which case, you've chosen to risk that, and you can deal with the consequences.

The post that started all this complaining didn't give away the character at all, so the complaint is moot. Three different people thought it was them, and as someone it wasn't, I haven't got a clue who this character is from her post.

Some will just forget about you, some won't. I know what I'm talking about. Forum CAN and SURELY affects your characters in the game, even if IC you do well.

So, actually, best would be NOT to post anything that can offend imms or attract their _OOC_ attention to your characters.

And if yours experience is positive, for someone else it can turn a lot worse.

... Why does RayBear never defend herself?

Why do you always do it?

I am asking out of curiosity, nothing more.

*Edit* In this case, the words 'never' and 'always' are just generalities.

Daevryn has a higher capacity to tolerate B.S.

But I'll never get the last word and it just worth the heartache and headache so I mostly don't respond to stuff like this anymore.

My husband, however, is famously known for not being able to stand it when people are wrong on the internet. Also, he has my back. And I love that about him.

http://xkcd.com/386/

Yup. That's my favorite xkcd because it hits so close to home.

{edited: Isildur should read all replies before responding}

n/t

He is her husband and I think that gives him a right to defend her as well as an obligation of sorts.

Personally I think some of the things said about her are terrible and if I was her husband I would have banned the poster over them.

Edit: In the case of Krilcov I would have done physical harm fwiw.

I got ROTD for something else totally unrelated, when the IMM asked why I did whatever I did, I mentioned that what had set me off was x, y, and z. I mentioned that I was annoyed by something that had happened, and I specifically said that there was a 99% chance everything was coincidence (using these exact words, I believe), and that I was just paranoid.

The IMM asked me why I didn't pray at the time when it happened - I said because I thought I was just being paranoid. Now I'm getting a really hard time for it, even though it's supposed to be OOC, my cabal IMM went on CB and outed me for mentioning it, in front of other players. I'm sure some edited snippet will be posted to make me look bad, I really wish I had saved the log but I didn't assume that Rayihn would run to the forum and try to make me look like an idiot.

No, it wasn't the Hamsah guild, but thanks for twisting the facts ever so slightly to make me look whiny. I thought stuff in the ROTD is supposed to be OOC, but the imms immediately bring it to the forum and I hear about it IC too - I'm sure by this time next week my character will have suffered some other repercussions just by virtue of mentioning it. I hope the IMM (who told me multiple times I should have just prayed when whatever happened), sees why I didn't pray or say anything - I guess I shouldn't have ever mentioned it.

But I have learned that throwing up random or unclear prayers leads to shiiitay titles and interaction.

I have deleted two characters because I got ####ed up titles when I thought I was doing something smoovy.

I can't imagine what the case would be if you were ROTD'ed and angry with an Imm. It can't go well for you.

Edit: Moral of the Story. Don't pray unless you're absolutely sure it's neccisary.

Are you sure you are the same guy?

You're clearly not the person Rayihn mentioned in her post. This post does nothing except further Daevryn's point about the number of OOC melt downs they deal with on a daily basis.

If it wasn't Hamsah then it's not about you.

Maybe it's that trait that Rayihn describes as "not being able to stand when someone is wrong on the internet".

a) It wasn't Hamsah.

b) 100% it was about me.

c) The thing that annoys me is that my cabal IMM comes on CB and tells me what a whiner I am and describes the events exactly as Rayihn does, and then Rayihn comes on the forum and basically outlines (using the same incorrect facts to make me look like a moron) the exact same event in more detail, so it's easy to link the two. I thought what was discussed in ROTD was supposed to be strictly OOC? No, I wasn't hiding in my Hamsah guild. No, there was never a pray. No, I didn't say "this guy killed me, he was cheating".

Obviously it's stupid now because if I let you write the incorrect story then I'm that guy who got killed in the Hamsah guild and cried foul, and if I correct you, then I'm the guy who discusses his active character on the gameplay forum. I just wish you (actually, your wife) would stop and factcheck before mashing away on your keyboard with all the accuracy of a gorilla. I don't even see why it got posted in the first place.

You have 3 different people convinced RayBaer was talking about them AND ONLY THEM.

That's just too ####ing funny.

Now that I've been forced to do some digging and figure out who you are and what actually happened and what's all going on here, I don't think there's anything I can say that would make you happy or that doesn't genuinely call you out or drag you through the mud, so I'm not sure that I should say anything to you.

If you (or in this case, Coconut) post trolling the imms, you risk the chance that they'll take the bait. You aren't, therefore, even assuming that post was about you, it still can't out you as a person you aren't, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about. If you were that person and did make that post and got outed in the process after daring someone to live up to enforcing the "you get to post anonymously on Gameplay, until you use that anonymity to be an assbag" rule (which you're not, but if) then you'd have asked for and specifically deserved what got.

So I honestly don't think you have a legitimate beef.

I don't see any outing here, since I haven't the foggiest notion who was killed in his guild and cried about it.

edit:verb tense.

The bigger deal they make out of this the more people will know..and i still dont know who the character is at all.

...is why you'd side with the administration on this.

If your character had been outed in such a way on the forums, how would that make you feel?

Let me stop you with the "but it wasn't the right character mentioned." I know. I presented enough of an argument under Daevryn's reply to rebut that. The person who felt they were mentioned by Rayihn has also posted and I'm sure that their character has been tainted by the experience. It's not about finding anything to complain about, it's about the imms scolding and punishing other players for outing themselves and others and then turning around and displaying the same behavior.

For Daev, it's a way to punish player behind the character when this player do something that Daev thinks is bad. Bitching, anonymously mocking someone he don't like, acting like an ass in the game (no matter of the reasons this character had when he acted like an ass).

Yes, I agree that those players did wrong things. I did wrong things too. Everyone can have a meltdown, get seriously offended or something like that and speak it out on the forums. Does it worth giving out their characters or link their forum personas to their characters? It's a matter of conscience.

When I see #### like that, I treat it as a little revenge and a power abuse.

Conclusion: don't post anything strongly agressive, negative or do not argue with the vets/imms buddies like isildur if you don't want to get your character outed by imms. And try to resist posting anything at all until your caracter is dead (which I'll try to do - I've played in that mode for years and only last two years I've been posting on this forum... and it gave me nothing except for the problems).

None of that actually happened in this case, so I'm not sure what you're worked up about.