When invoker turns ground into quicksand, does this area becomes a desert type? Can "desert" rangers camou there?

It's a misleading term for an ESL I think. Basically it's found in areas where water mixes with sand in equal or greater measure allowing you to sink but not easily pull yourself out.

But I do have the same question about quicksand with reguard to Marshdwellers, does it help them with their terrain associated skills? At all?

No.

It could have ended here. How the heck did this become an e-peen discussion of hazards in the Middle East and grain killing people?

What...the...####.

There are dry forms of quicksand, like in deserts. Think the same principle behind why walking onto a pile of corn in a silo is dangerous.

I live in Kuwait, you do not sink in sand that is movie special effects where people sink in dry sand.

I also lived in Germany and have been in silo's and on trains hauling corn. You do not sink in corn. The short distance your feet goes into it is minimal and you are able to take your foot out because their is air flow where as "quicksand" forms a suction and holds you fast.

Struggling pulls you in deeper.

Because of the higher density of the quicksand, it would be impossible for a human or animal to completely sink in the quicksand, though natural hazards present around the quicksand would lead people to believe that quicksand is dangerous. In actuality the quicksand is harmless on its own, but because it greatly impedes human locomotion, the quicksand would allow harsher elements like solar radiation, dehydration, hypothermia or tides to harm a trapped person.<2> The way to escape is to wiggle the legs.<3>



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksand

relative to it so laying down and swimming out is the best way to escape.

Walking out is next to impossible if not impossible.

My point is, there is no such thing as dry quicksand. It is wet.

Check out these ragers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAoj-dFU3UM&feature=fvwrel


Moondust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bosenNvvB7M
You'll notice even though this is very shallow, it provides no resistance. So baring falling into a pit of it that was over your head, there would be little or no hinderance.

I have lived in Kuwait as well. If you actually live there then you will know what I'm talking about. Most people call in "moon dust" or something similar. It's that super fine sand you see sometimes. When you step in it feels like zero resistance and creates an instant puff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_quicksand

Is a link describing dry quicksand. I stepped in a large pile of it and sank straight to my mid-thigh. It's rare that it piles up in great amounts, but if you go out in the desert far enough you will find some big ones. I doubt any enough to swallow someone and I imagine you wouldn't sink much beyond the waist anyway.

Was actually in Baghdad, Iraq too, but the sand there didn't seem to get as fine. Only had the dry quicksand appear there after a couple particular nasty sandstorms.

I knew someone who died that way - because when it is moving it acts like quicksand. Stepping on stable grains does not suck you in.

"Grain drowning is a common type of solid drowning which can occur on farms. Small grains like corn, soybeans and wheat are stored in grain bins and gravity wagons. It may be fun to jump in the grain or even bury yourself, but this kind of play is very dangerous. Flowing grain acts like quicksand. Once you start to sink it is impossible for you to dig your way to the top. As you dig, the grain keeps shifting under your feet, pushing you deeper towards the bottom. It only takes 3 to 4 seconds for an adult to become helpless in grain and only 20 seconds for an adult to become totally covered. You are smaller in size so it takes less time for you to become covered in the grain. Just riding in gravity wagons from the fields to the bins can be deadly. As the gravity wagon hits bumps, the grain will shift around your body. You could be buried alive before arriving at the bin."

With a jar, some corn and a golf ball.

Fill the jar half way with corn with the golf ball on the bottom and shake it. The golf ball will rise to the surface over time.

It's called bouyancy.

If I stand in water I will sink till the water is at my crown. If I lay on my back I can breath all day.

I don't really care if you think it can be refuted.

I had a friend die that way. It's pretty real.

He was inside a grain wagon - it began rolling forward, the grain began shifting with the roll, he sank instantly and was way beyond help.

You can't sink in grain. People get burried in it all the time, and pockets of air form and collapse under weight, but you don't sink, you fall through the broken crust.

This is a huge urban myth, that propagated out of a misunderstanding of the physics of grain drowning.

Still, it's a tragic end for your friend.

Deny it all you want, but people die from it every year.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/updates/93-116.html

Be sure to make an evidence youtube video, but have several friends with ropes, shovels, and paramedics nearby. It's similar to being killed by a constrictor. As you get deeper it gets heavier and tighter, eventually you can't breathe and you die.

According to the National Institute for Occupational safety and Health (NIOSH, grain farmers and their families may face deadly hazards this spring when working with grain bins. At least nine farmers recently suffocated to death in stored grain after being buried alive. <====== BURIED ALIVE.

That's not sinking. And read further down the article. It isn't talking about people sinking. Grain deaths are cause buy burial, not sinking.

This particular incident had nothing to do with a silo or air pockets. It was in a moving grain wagon. The vibrations of the wagon caused the grain to shift and flow, thus creating suction.

I mean, if it helps my credibility any, this was my girlfriend's younger brother. This is an incident I have personal experience with - I've SEEN grain flow in a wagon - and you're just telling me I'm wrong.

You're using them to try and appear "not wrong." Falling through the crust = sinking.

Falling through the crust is akin to falling through ice that is over a hollow pocket of air and then having the walls collapse around you.

Grain can form an arch and support hollow cavities in silos. Farmers dies every year when they lean in and poke that bubble and the entire collumn collapses and crushes them.

These bubbles can happen anywhere inside the collum or container and you can fall into that unseen cavity and be crushed or buried.

However, we are all talking about the same thing. Falling and/or sinking through the surface to suffocate. It's obvious that the physics of it is not the same as quicksand, however the same result occurs. In both cases, if you can't get out, you can "drown."

From dictionary.com:

Sink:
To displace part of the volume of a supporting substance (That curst you spoke of I assume) and become totally or partially submerged or enveloped. Fall or descend into or below the surface or to the bottom.

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Since the only difference between what you are saying and "sinking" is connotation, it is now a matter of semantics. Semantics having to do with the meaning and study of words, both in definition and how they are perceived.

Because you are not displacing part of the volume of the substance (Grain). The air pocket did that. You are in fact partially filling that preexisting void.

When you fall through it. The surface being the part that supports you. Why are we arguing about something so silly?

but II think I am explaining my pov improperly.

then semantics is the cause for our argument ;)

.

You got me.

Suffice it to say the manner of displacement/agitation of the supporting material will play a role in how it reacts to mass placed at the surface.

There is a mythbusters on quicksand, check it out.

I'll look at the Mythbusters. I bet it'll support me!

Approximating it being of homogenous in density might not describe the real situation and lead to conclusions that do not describe the hazards of walking on actual grain. There are always pockets of air (or other substance) between the grains, as their shape does allow 100% effective packing. It might not be wise to presume that the packing is homogenous and that the air pockets may be of different size.

I think that the miscommunication that I read from the replies is due to you assuming this homogenous grain and claiming that you can't sink into that. Sure, if it's all tightly packed like, you won't sink in.

However, other people in this thread have been talking about real grain as it is in the silos and such. It is possible to sink below the surface of real grain, providing that the density of the grain is low enough in that point. Air pocket below collapses and you get packed in with the grain. I this case, you can sink into grain which would outwardly look like it were tightly packed, even if it really wasn't. So the question in that situation is "There is a container full of grain over there. Will I sink in below the surface if I go walk on it?"

8th grade physics is full of approximations to make the calculations easy (students don't know any advanced math at that point). You'll just need to consider whether your approximation describes the real situation.

As for your sinking in the water scenario: At rest in equilibrium state, you float in a stable fashion in both of the cases you presented, with same volume of you being above the water, regardless of whether you are floating on your back or on your. Also, if you get into the water and start sinking, then you aren't at rest in equilibrium state and sink and raise around the equilibrium like a dampening harmonic oscillator. If you are resting on your back, the spring constant is higher and amplitude lower, which generally helps as you are less submerged in the low position of the oscillation, not to mention that your face being towards the surface is generally helpful if you want to breathe while floating. Also note that the sum of momentums needs to be zero if you don't want your body to rotate in the water.

You can walk out of moondust. It doesn't create suction.

It occures in large ammounts in SE Iraq where the marshes used to be but it's not anything like actual quicksand.

it is "dry quicksand"

It's in no way like quicksand at all.

That's why they call it dry quicksand and not just "quicksand". One might even call it a "dry form of quicksand" since "dry quicksand" is the name that has been given to it. In both cases you sink and/or fall into it. That is the similarity. The differences between the two are what make the categorical "dry" required for one of the terms.

Maybe you are arguing something different. I don't know. I was just pointing out that "dry quicksand" exists. You said it didn't. I've given proof that it does.

I'm not trying to be a ####. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just informing you that "dry quicksand," in fact, exists.

dictionary.com:

quicksand:

A bed of soft or loose sand saturated with water and having considerable depth. Yielding under weight and therefore tending to suck down any object resting on its surface.

------------------

Now, what happens when you remove the water from this equation? Would you say it become "dry"? I certainly would. However, just doing this does not make it "dry quicksand," since you won't necessarily "sink" in soft or loose sand. At least, not more than an inch or so.

However, we do know that "dry quicksand" exists thanks to the wikipedia article I posted plus any research one might do beyond that, if they wanted to dispute the existance of it.

So, how do we come to "dry quicksand"? We add another identifying attribute. The sand must be made of small granules, (which hey, this apparently makes it soft and loose enough to fall/sink in). Now we have "dry quicksand". It meets all the requirements of "quicksand," only it does not have the water.

Have a nice day.

You just provided the definition of quick sand.

Remove water and it becomes mud. Remove more and it becomes dirt. Grind up the dirt into finer particulate matter and you get dust.

You are talking about dust.

Now, I don't deny that you could fall into a dust pit, but it wouldn't hold you fast.

I've avoided arguments with you in the past, but I always assumed that if I were to discuss something with you... Well, I'd hoped your stubbornness with others was based on your dislike for them and the amount of harrasment you used to receive. Instead I see it is simply your inability to see and/or admit that you are ever wrong.
--------------------------

Just so you know. Mud contains water as well. Without water, it isn't mud. Yes, it will be dirt, but mud is also dirt.

--------------------------

I didn't mean physically REMOVE the water from the quicksand. I meant, if the substance that IS quicksand, simply had no water in it. Dirt is also not what is created. Mud, quick sand, grime are all considered "Dirt."

Dirt:
any foul or filthy substance, as mud, grime, dust, or excrement

--------------------------



Here are some more links proving "dry quicksand" exists. Whether it meets whatever definition you want to attribute it or not. It exists:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dry-quicksand
http://www.physorg.com/news2490.html
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-physics-of-quicksand/
http://thetartan.org/2006/11/20/scitech/htw

I grew up in Texas as well. In my backyard we had tons of these little guys called Ant Lions. They essentially make these little beds of "dry quicksand" to trap its prey.

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Just saying "There is no such thing as dry quick sand" does not make it so. I have given you examples of dry quick sand. I have laid out how dry quicksand might be defined. Whether you like it or not, it exists. In the very worst case scenario, it exists only in labs where it is created. Still in existance.

---------------------------

Finally, no where in the definition of quick sand does it say "hold you fast." In fact, in this very thread, we have discussed means for getting one's self out of quicksand. Therefore, I see no reason why you attribute this to quicksand. Nor do I see why if this false attribute doesn't apply to "dry quicksand," how that means that "dry quicksand" doesn't exist.

They make funnels in the soil that channel their prey to their waiting jaws.

The steep slopes combined with the loose soil make it difficult to escape. On top of that the ant lion (really a larvae of some sort of caddis fly I think) flings soil up in a further arrempt to knock the prey item back down to the bottom of the funnel.

I did take the liberty of reading as much as I could on dry quicksand. All I get is that it's a mythical substance except in one limited, labratory controlled situation.

It does not exist in nature... which is fine enough for me to believe magic could replicate what the laboratories do.

My problem with calling "dry quicksand" quicksand at all is that it and normal quicksand do not share similar properties or characteristics.

The moondust you spoke of does not trap, slow down, or hinder movement, where as traditional quicksand does.

That's aaaaalllllll I'm saying.

Was hoping you wouldn't bother to look up ant lions. For shame. Fine fine, we have reached an accord.

sdfv

So much as disbelieving that dry quicksand exists and if it does that it would have the same properties as what the spell causes.

I think that Bigfoot has a greater possibility of existing that this mythical powder of which you speak.

No.

n/t