Should Maran refrain from doing business with evil shoppies?

I always said no, Darascus went always said yes.

What does everyone else think, especially Baer and company?

Buying from evil shoppies and using evil healers is about as sexy as paying centurions. I'm not going to uninduct you for doing it, but I might give you a little grief for it to see how you respond. Or, you know, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

It's pretty easy to avoid, so you should do so.

I've paid centurions before to slip by them so I can hurl throat the vanquisher, etc.

By paying centurions you are aiding the evil empire, always thought it was lame when Maran did that.

If you're buying potions of flight from a red aura shoppie, you've got plenty of better merchants to do business with and it's probably always a bad idea. Other cases, I could see certain arguments. Are you better off holding to strict black and white, but giving the Empire forewarning? Or is a greater good accomplished by accepting that the Empire can now buy a dozen more swords, but you're reclaiming the powerful crystal orb for the Fortress?

For acolytes maybe but for Maran this doesn't hold water. They are extreme zealots in the name of the Light, them doing some evil for the greater good doesn't cut it.

That's a way and probably the most common way to play a Maran, but I don't think it's the only valid way.

nt

...to play a maran that constantly balances on the line between a good maran and someone who has become what they're to fight, and sometime crossing that line. Another way is to actually eventually be that guy who crosses the line, not that he'd go evil, but that he'd get kicked from the Maran because he doesn't follow the creed.

Paying centurions certainly are balancing on the line, because in a sense you have dealings with evils when you do it.

The greater good: The obvious interpretation of the creed here is that the greater good is NOT a viable way to look at things.

To sacrifice a child to save a thousand is by Marans not acceptable. BUT, it is still viable to play a Maran who does believe in that. Of course, he will constantly risk getting kicked out for believing so.

Marans are somewhat like al-qaida, they do attack civilians, if they're evil. Some will even attack neutrals that are "civilians". They'll gladly sacrifice themselves for "the greater good" etc etc. Not all of them, but most. They are fanatics to their cause, and fanatics comes in all tastes and blends. (Of course, since the Marans has rules (read the creed) some tastes and blends will get excluded.)

Hope that helped.

*EDIT* That was a bit more than "One way to...", and way more than I meant to write.

I don't see this as a case of the maran doing a "little evil" to achieve a "greater good". Mainly because the party that benefits from the payment (i.e. the Empire) eventually loses something vastly more important than what it gained. You can view it as a single transaction.

This is different from, hypothetically speaking, killing an innocent orphan in cold blood in order to regain the orb. In that case you got the orb back, which is bad for the empire, but you also killed an innocent. Killing innocents (save perhaps at their own request) is bad all the time. Handing someone some coins isn't intrinsically evil.

It becomes evil if by handing someone coins you're enriching an evil Empire. Except if you pay them coins *and then attack them and take back your item* you've imposed a net loss on the evil Empire.

"These aren't the droids your looking for."

You don't always blindly kill every storm trooper in sight because it's not practical. Some times you have to Jedi mind trick your way through things. In this case turning a little Imperial greed against itself might be the smart Marans play. I can just sort of see an elf with a hood up scanning for smarter and more capable minions of the Empire as he slips some gold to get past the more lase fair Centurions.

Maran aren't Jedi, they're passionate and furious zealots.

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>Maran aren't Jedi, they're passionate and furious zealots.

At what point did "zealot" get introduced into the Maran philosophy? MARAN, originally developing from Shokai's Maran religion. Shokai, in my experience, has always struck me as much more tempered religion. Baernika, on the other hand, IS much more of a zealous (also note PURITY) Immortal, who probably wouldn't take as kindly to ANY interactions with Empirie, no matter what the purpose or gain. Hell, there's been Maran who have been EMPOWERED by evil Gods. That tends to kill your argument right there.

Baer is a purist and zealot completely and gives evil absolutely no quarter. If you ask her if you can pay cents, the answer is always no. If you ask her if you can buy from evil shoppies, no. Hell trip? HELL to the no. Summon neutral mobs to fight evil? Well, the fence sitters probably deserve it.

That said, I also understand the necessity in game of turning a blind eye at times. I also understand non-Baer followers playing a different flavor of Maran than she dishes out. So as long as it's not being waved in Baer's face and she's not being confronted directly with it....I'll probably not come down on you for it. Obviously, I would prefer you find a different way to do things - I don't know anything in game that you have to purchase from an evil shop keep that you can't find elsewhere. The idea of asking higher level guys to kill cents for you is good, etc.

Also keep in mind that the reward of obtaining Maran is determined by a person - so if I see you going out of your way to "do the right thing" I'm going to think you deserve Maran. It is the little things that stick out and make a difference.

To eyes right after you get Maran.

Did you laugh or just sigh and roll your eyes? :)

Better example would of been the sith they are zealous and passionate.

Past Maran and Imperial imms have said that paying Centurions is what causes them to be balanced. If you don't allow paying them a 25-35th level squire that CAN kill the vanquisher often CANNOT kill the centurions, and therefore can't retrieve. Lowbies not able to retrive = unbalanced.

If there are no high lvl Imperials, then you can probably pay off some random hero to kill them for you without too much of a problem (Empire has lots of enemies, after all).

If there are hero Imperials on and no hero Forties, are they just going to come take the Orb again? Seems like you could just get in a loop where you end up giving the Imperials a huge amount of gold for no real gain.

And if there's high lvl Imperials AND Forties on.. well, shouldn't there be a fight anyways? That's kind of the whole point.

I'm sure there's some exceptions when paying the Cent's is the only way to get the Orb back, and it'll be relatively safe once you do. But that would definitely be the exception, not the rule.

I honestly don't think the brigade has ever given a crap about individual people with red auras. It's ultimate goal isn't swatting every insect that buzzes around, the goal is to remove the nest.

I don't think you should necessarily going around hugging evil shopkeepers, but doing business with them is fine. Maran have more important things to worry about than some two-bit thug who may or may not have unethical business practices or a nasty hobby in their spare time.

Now, if this shopkeeper was helping to torture orphans or sheltering some evil thief that maran guy's after, I'd expect the maran to kill him. But barring overt acts of evil or helping evil in their direct presence, I see no problem.

I can justify it about a dozen other ways too. Fortress as a whole puts emphasis on defending the Light first and foremost, not destroying the dark. Business transactions are essentially a neutral act, etc.

Long story short, as long as you aren't buying slaves from one of the charmie shops or anything that would be in extreme defiance of RP, I really see very little problem.

There isn't much in your post that meshes with the way Maran imms see the cabal and alignment right now.

Essentially, if shopkeeper/healer has a red aura, you should assume that they are using their profits to fund their child pornography library or something like that. You can't get away with "well, he didn't do anything evil while I was with him" when he has a red aura. This is different from real life.

>I can justify it about a dozen other ways too. Fortress as a
>whole puts emphasis on defending the Light first and foremost,
>not destroying the dark.

There are two factions of the Fortress. We're talking Maran here, and their goal is specifically destroying evil. That is absolutely their emphasis. If you want to focus on defending the Light, then Acolyte is better for you. The two sides don't agree on this issue, and it's perfectly ok and expected for there to be conflict over it.

Just think of the tried and true cliche of sword vs shield. 90% of Forties mention it in interviews because it fits. Swords are for stabbing. Shields are for blocking.

>Long story short, as long as you aren't buying slaves from one
>of the charmie shops or anything that would be in extreme
>defiance of RP, I really see very little problem.

What about an evil PC? Would it be cool to trade and buy things with him? Why would you think it should be treated differently?

nt

It's crossed my mind. I'm deployed right now.. but we'll see what happens when/if I get some free time.

There are all sorts of behaviors in CF that are poorly justified or involve prioritizing OOC mechanics over RP ones.

Death isn't a big deal here. People will regularly hold onto limited items they can't use to deny their enemies access to them (prayer beads?). People don't full loot the corpses of their enemies 24/7, although that makes the most sense from an RP perspective.

Obviously, it's far from ideal maran behavior, but I've seen plenty of captain/marshall/maran/whatever who've bought potions from Udgaard and never seen anyone really get all hissy about it.

It's also not nearly as bad as some other behaviors that I've seen imms okay, like paying off centurions or killing neutral mobs for gear. Again, I don't think this sort of thing is perfect maran behavior in any way, shape, or form, but I'd honestly boggle if I saw someone get penalized for it.