From what little I know of the outlander cabal (helpfiles) is there a reason why svirfs were left out of the "defiler" group? For years I have thought that dwarves should have been hunted by sylvans because of their defiling of the mountains and stone. But unless I am mistaken isnt the svirf culture very similar to that of the dwarf?

I'm tired of seeing the same repetitive argument from someone who can't be bothered to read what is written.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I had a role (albeit unsuccessfullt) where i played Tharf,a svirf thief trapper-path whose belief was that he was essentially a ranger of the underdark, the thief skills being more suited to hiding in the underdark etc than camouflage. His sphere was earth and was dedicated to hunting drow and duergar who thoughtlessly mined the earth for it's gem. He believed the stalactites etc were like trees but even older. Tried to get into Sylvan but failed being unable to get Imm approval despite the tacit agreement of the mortal leaders

It was my belief that essentially all svirfs were similar, dedicated to the Earth as the embracing mother, which concealed them from their enemies in the underdark. for svirfs I thought minig was the underdark equivalent of deforestation.

nt

Because they live underground, Evil Genius.

Primitive tribes in forests tend to carry machetes, too. It doesn't make them a logging operation.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Because they live underground, Evil Genius.
>
>Primitive tribes in forests tend to carry machetes, too. It
>doesn't make them a logging operation.
>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

? Sorry, i'm racking my brains for comparable situations? Are you saying that Svirfnebli hack new paths through the stone any time they want to go somewhere? Stalagmite patches that have suddenly grown over night?

How does this compare with Dwarves?

The earth is another sphere for a religion, therefore it has ties to it having a divine entity. The svirfnebli were chosen by the earth to work it for the minerals that are contained within. Proof of this is found in their affinity and inherent abilities. Dwarves and duergar do not have the blessing of the earth to mine.

So it's ok for Svirf to rip it apart with pick-axes, but not dwarves?

Discussions like these can go on forever. The truth is, the cabal could be designed to have forbidden svirfnebli and permitted necromancers, if someone wanted to design it that way.

The cabal has been designed as it has been for a variety of reasons, both roleplaying oriented and with game balance considerations in mind.

But for the sake of it, I can also add that there are hundreds of burrowing animals in the wild that live harmoniously with nature. Just because a svirfneblin uses a pickaxe instead of claws doesn't make it an unharmonious way to live, any more than a tribal hunter using a bow and arrow to take down prey is.

We've offered you our explainations. You can forever say "but, but, there are svirfneblin mobs that use pick-axes! And humans build huge cities so they are the worst offenders! And felar were created by magic so they should be seen as aberrations like minotaurs and liches!"

Trust me when I say that just about any perspective you'll come up with has already been rehashed in gory detail by the imms in the very long period of time this cabal has been in development. Decisions were made based on a lot of discussion and some general consensus, for a variety of reasons.

If you want to roleplay a character that believes svirfnebli are earth-rapists, hey, feel free! We're just telling you what the IC Outlander perspective is and why, and what the belief system characters who become Outlanders are expected to embrace. I can make devil's advocate arguments for logical loopholes in every single cabal concept out there, if I wanted to. But what's the point? There wouldn't be much room for interesting roleplaying conflict if every cabal concept was so logically air-tight that there was no room for logical opposition from the "other side" anyways.

The Outlander cabal concept isn't going to change right now, and I've already conceeded the point that the races are they are portrayed in areas/helpfiles have some inconsistencies and that the development of race into unique CF cultures is a work in progress. What more are you looking for?

That was some argument, Amaranthe. For a moment I thought you were a college professor giving a lecture to some students. The Outlander seems intriguing and exciting. Everything has a loophole so it is true there will be endless discrepancies.

All in all, you rock!

PS That was the longest (besides the 'taking a break' farewell) post I've seen you write. Rock on!

::That was some argument, Amaranthe. For a moment I thought you were a college professor giving a lecture to some students. The Outlander seems intriguing and exciting. Everything has a loophole so it is true there will be endless discrepancies.

My previous post seems to have vanished. (Could you guys look into the problem for me?) Anyway, on to the matter at hand. I wish i had your sort of creativity in finding things to get excited about in a post.

::All in all, you rock!

I love the imms as much as the next guy, but we don't have to be brown nosers to let them know this. In fact nine out of ten imms already know they rock and are not in need of further reassurance.


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

In short, i've you gone to all this discussion behind the scenes, care to publish this so that the user base gets to benefit from all this info as opposed to someone like me being left with.
Smurfs are bad because someone said so and not because of any logic that can be discussed.

I don't understand. Were you not given about half a dozen reasons by three different imms in this very thread about the "logic" behind the decision?

If you find those reasons to be so unendurably illogical that you can't accept it in any way, shape, or form, then don't play an Outlander. It's that simple.

I'll just disagree with you then and leave it at that. The the "half a dozen" reasons were just chipped in here and there in reply to questions and in my opinion don't appear to stand up at all in CF's current layout.

p.s. I discounted "trust me" as any form of answer.

Amaranthe quite clearly said that there are inconsistencies in the way that CF areas and such portrays races. She's conceding to the fact that it won't all match up perfectly, and you still can't suspend disbelief and take it on the word of the people that run this game, that Svirfs are as she says they are? (and probably will be more fleshed out later on.)

In the CF world, in the eyes of the Outlanders, Svirfneblin work the earth with the blessings of the Nature gods. Dwarves probably strip-mine, while Svirfs carefully take what they need and nurture the rest to create a harmonious balance. (all while using the same tools, such as pick-axes)

Take a deep breath, and just use your imagination, you need it for this game.

Thorny

>Take a deep breath, and just use your imagination, you need it
>for this game.

I do, but when i'm also told "trust me" and there is little or no explanation as to why (only why's are made up in response to questions) i'm led to believe that i can believe anything I wish no matter how incorrect it may be.

Svirfnebli culture and history is not very thoroughly developed in CF presently, but it is being worked on. Basically, the svirfneblin relationship to the earth is more harmonious with the element of earth than about aggressive mining and industry. They are slated to be more along the lines of the wood-elf equivelent of the subterranean world.

That doesn't appear to jive whatsover with the dwarf culture of them underground with the sleeping god and all that.

The Tale of Dwarven Origin is a creation myth, which may or may not be believed to be true by various pcs. Parts of it may be true, or none of it, etc. All the same, it can entirely jive. Basically, the myth is saying a force of Order in the universe created dwarves to impose artificial restraint over the natural phenomenon (earthquakes, land changes) caused by the "slumbering God". The Outlanders are proponents of natural forces of chaos and freedom, and for the destruction of civilization. For whatever reason the dwarves were created, the *result* is that they have served as a major foundation for industry, the economy, and civilized progress.

In a nutshell though, all mythologies and histories are just a matter of perspective. The races and classes distrusted by the Outlanders have been chosen with many reasons in mind, not all of which have been introduced yet.

And anyways, who's to say Nordiach still slumbers? :) Remember the Ancients are a number of slumbering nature spirits and forgotton gods that have just been reawakened. If the Tale of Dwarven Origin is true, Nordiach might be among the Ancients, leaving the dwarves to chisel and forge the earth for only their own means and profit.

>And anyways, who's to say Nordiach still slumbers? :) Remember
>the Ancients are a number of slumbering nature spirits and
>forgotton gods that have just been reawakened. If the Tale of
>Dwarven Origin is true, Nordiach might be among the Ancients,
>leaving the dwarves to chisel and forge the earth for only
>their own means and profit.

I'd be sure pissed if the dude i'd been guardian of for aeons wakes up and his first act is to mark me enemy.

But i hear what you're saying.

>Svirfnebli culture and history is not very thoroughly
>developed in CF presently, but it is being worked on.
>Basically, the svirfneblin relationship to the earth is more
>harmonious with the element of earth than about aggressive
>mining and industry. They are slated to be more along the
>lines of the wood-elf equivelent of the subterranean world.

Most of the underdark races in CF - at least within the helpfiles - could probably benefit from further refinement overall. I am very excited about the recent developments in Outlaw, however.

Svirfneblin

It would be interesting to see how CF lore presents the svirf angle you described. In many worlds (including CF), svirfneblin are invariably associated with gems and stones. Their strength and affinity for precious stones would suggest mining and exploitation of the earth. Furthermore, some authors and gaming circles present them in darker terms - cunning thieves, and possibly necromancers and shaman - because of their ties to the Underdark.

Yet, I see how they can be viewed as being in tune with their natural surroundings. Their "singular dedication" to stone stems more from reverence and their need to live within it, rather than the desire to subjugate the earth - as with dwarves. Since they are wise and adept "traders" (thieves), they are able to work the gem trade without relying so much on physical invasion of the earth's resources. Their high strength comes not so much from mining -- but perhaps years of defending themselves from the duergar and drow.

That aside, has there been any thoughts on expanding Svirf to allow them to be evil? As suggested above, some gaming circles offer the svirf race as an evil "alternative" to gnomes. I am curious as to why gnomes AND svirfs are restricted to neutral -- it seems repetitive at first glance... Not that it matters to me - they work just fine.

Duergar

Duergar culture seems even less developed than svirfs, for that matter. I certainly do not blame CF, as their history seems vague in general.

One problem, however, is that the helpfiles for duergar indicate that they have departed from the practices of the dwarves. Moreover, duergar despise their their cousins and want nothing to do with them.

In any event, categorizing duergar as defilers still works for me. For all their differences, they ARE dwarves -- and despicable ones, at that. They share a common history of excavation and exploitation of the earth -- even though they may not at present seek to cause harm.

I was both pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised to see an increase in duergar activity in certain areas. The horror... Anyhow, are they slated for some overhaul as well - at least in terms of racial background and history in CF?

Dark-Elves

I am ecstatic to see drow taken off the list of defilers. Was this for game balance?

I'm wondering if this signifies more of an acceptance of the popular Salvatore model of drow... That is to say, drow are a rich but treacherous hierarchical society that emphasizes station and beauty; they are not necessarily warmongers and destroyers of nature. Most of the information found in-game, as well as many CF areas seem to support this model -- or at least, do not contradict it.

If this is true can we expect to see some updates to their helpfile as well? Perhaps some information about Teth Azeleth, their ability to scan in the Underdark (a VERY overlooked benefit), and some of their values and traits which are illustrated in the Academy....

I am equally curious as to why the Outlaw helpfile is silent with respect to drow. The Ancients certainly can't be crazy about them. The drow tendency toward dark arts and undead manipulation should stir quite a bit of hostility or distrust.

At any rate, the more recent changes to drow seem to be going in the right direction.

Other than that, it is great to see races and their background lore continually develop in CF. Culturally refined playerkilling at it's best!

>I am equally curious as to why the Outlaw helpfile ...

Just wanted to point out there is no "Outlaw" helpfile in case that confuses other readers.

nt

The races and their cultures seem to be a constant work in progress, and will continue to evolve and become enriched as various members of the staff get enthusiastic about taking on such projects. You can expect to see lots of fun stuff, not only in the helpfiles but in various areas and the Lyceum as well. Not all races are restricted to one "culture" either!

All three of the "Underdark" races carry some heavy preconceived notions about what they "should" be like. We hope to make most of the races unique in their own way. "Drow" obviously had the most baggage with the broadly read Drizzt books, so we've started there.

I won't go every detail as to why dark-elves are not seen as a threat by the Outlanders, but suffice to say "Defiler" is a Sylvan idea, not an Outlander concept. Outlanders are more concerned with actions of an entire culture rather than bloodlines. Drow actions that are unfavorable can pretty much be pinpointed to particular classes, while massive mining operations associated with duergar and dwarves cannot. Other than profession offenses, the drow pretty much live harmoniously with their subterranean surroundings - they do not mine or deconstruct the earth, but appreciate the aesthetic of the cavernous environs and live as a part of it - Much like surface-elves live harmoniously with their woodland surroundings.

Incidentally, a lot of the races you see listed as distrusted by the Outlanders are not necessarily seen as worthy of widespread extermination. They are merely distrusted. Whether they are hunted or not is not a decree, but rather left up to the individual Outlander's free will. I would invite you to remove the idea of a "Defiler" from your vocabulary.

Most of the points you have made in this thread are not discussed in the helpfiles, so I am glad you set the record straight.

And, of course, I apologise for equating Outlander with Sylvan II; many of us as players assume that they are revamped Sylvans, when it's an entirely different concept in its own right. It's only natural, since our first reaction is to compare it to Sylvan. I hated the idea of categorically being labelled a defiler on the basis of race, with no regard to what the character actually does.

The reason I am so bent on understanding these fine lines is that I suspect many player characters in Outlander will still adopt race-based philosophies -- and that effectively, it could be played as Sylvan II (which sounds like what you do not want). Am I correct in assuming that Outlander is NOT Sylvan II?

All the same, I am happy that you have shifted the emphasis more toward actions, instead of race. I also like how Outlaw is more expansive, allowing them to be more contemplative naturalists -- not necessarily anti-"defiler" drones in chameleon suits. It sounds like a much deeper concept that should add more RP layers on top of the senseless PK that we enjoy.

Oops, I said "defiler" again!

I suppose the next step is to try it out!

Z

You are correct - Outlander is not Sylvan II, although obviously, the new cabal fills the same niche in many ways, and has some similarities and common ground. I am just saying that in spite of these similarities, I would encourage players to just wipe the slate clean in their mind and "relearn" the cabal concept from scratch, and conclude the similarities and differences as you go along.

Just to say that i've never read salvatore and my interpretation of dark-elves and duergar were that they were "fallen" members of their species.
In the case of the d-elves they have such long lives and elaborate social structures that some began to follow corrupted forms of this set up. They are dark in as much as they followed the dark path just as wood elves aren't made of wood.
The duergar were corrupted by another more magical means (for example the dark crystal in the base of mortorn) and their values became skewed (ie the love of gold in dwarves is not offset by other things in the duergar make up).

>Just to say that i've never read salvatore and my
>interpretation of dark-elves and duergar were that they were
>"fallen" members of their species.

You are right. In general, all of the "underdark" races are viewed as fallen in some way.. Even the svirfs are "fallen" gnomes outside of CF -- though you can also view them as mere subterranean relatives.

>In the case of the d-elves they have such long lives and
>elaborate social structures that some began to follow
>corrupted forms of this set up. They are dark in as much as
>they followed the dark path just as wood elves aren't made of
>wood.

Hah. I think that is a perfectly accurate view and I am inclined to agree. The Salvatore books do not refute this idea, but also introduce characters who are not as corrupt as others. As a whole, it is a twisted society full of backstabbing, violence, and evil. In CF, you more or less have a blank check to play out your dark-elf character. The helpfile simply says they are "evil."

>The duergar were corrupted by another more magical means (for
>example the dark crystal in the base of mortorn) and their
>values became skewed (ie the love of gold in dwarves is not
>offset by other things in the duergar make up).

That sounds like a legitimate view. It is probably a good way to approach the race and is tied to the CF world.

nt

Please change the "Dwarven Origin" helpfile.

It now seems out of date with the new Outlander helpfile.

It just seems to me, that the whole idea of dwarves being somewhat newer to Thera, and being defilers is *NOT* supported in the "Dwarven Origin" helpfile.


Just my opinion,


But having one helpfile say that the dwarves were made BY THE CREATOR of the Land in order to tend the Land (read Nordiach) and continue it's forging....

Then having another helpfile say that there were lots of people around in an idyllic state before un-natural dwarves showed up and started hurting the land.


Which is it?



"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

While this helpfile is probably a bit outdated, keep in mind that whatever discriminations the Outlanders have are not "Defilers" in the Sylvan sense. The motivations are different, and the results will be different.