Across the board. Every path with the possible exception of thug.

Why? Because they exist purely to grief other players. Before neo-thieves, thieves were scary, at level 35, if you couldn't survive a dual backstab. But, if they actually ranked to hero, they weren't scary, and even if they landed a blackjack, they still had to fight you to kill you.

Since neo-thieves, every path but thug specialises not in fighting other characters, but in avoiding fighting them until they have such a severe advantage that it isn't really a fight at all. Trappers don't even have to be in the room, Poisoners are going to try to make you unable to fight via poison, Binders are going to make you completely unable to move and lacking any weapons (but then they usually fail to actually kill you unless they call in help), and Pickpockets exist purely to empty your inventory and you have a very low chance to even get them out of hiding to attack them.

The thief class is broken. I'd rather be slept by a necromancer any day of the week then deal with any thief class. At least if I survive a necromancer I survive with all my stuff in tact. Even if a thief fails to kill you, they can still empty your inventory.

An entire class that basically can't fight anyone (unless they are a thug, and even then it is questionable) unless they've completely removed the ability of who they are fighting to fight back has no place in CF. Sitting for 20 hours due to poison, or bindings, or to wait out trap effects isn't fun especially when you are already safe from the thief. Neither is rot, but at least you can see a shaman coming and do something about it. I like Flaaayin, he is a cool character and him and Trunlak got along just fine, but I wouldn't want to fight him for the same reason I don't want to wait out 50 hour plague in an out of the way area because I can't walk to a healer. It is a waste of the time I have to play CF and equates to causing me grief for no reason.

Wasting someone's limited time that they can devote to this game by making them sit on their ass and wait out effects is not a good way to retain a playerbase that is aging and has less and less time to devote to CF. Honestly, if I had been playing Flaaayin enemy, I believe I could survive "fighting" him as often as not, but given the time commitment, I probably would have just logged off instead. It just plain isn't fun whether you survive or not, and your options for retaliation are severely limited due to hide.

In conclusion, I'd like thieves to have assassin style adrenaline based hide and be able to fight (third attack, plus something to do in direct combat besides kick for damage) rather than rely on tilting the fight so far in their favor that their victims have no chance.

Tac

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It is still hard to kill thieves and most of them won't come anywhere near you if you can see them an are hostile.

Tac

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Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

nt

Thieves serve a purpose.

Yeah, it really sucks to lose your shiny goods gathering dust in your inventory, but so what? Sack up and go get more. Their pockets aren't infinitely deep. A really great thief who is prepared to fight is going to have an inventory full of daggers that exploit vulns, or high-quality ingredients they can't put into containers, thus leaving maybe 6 slots open for stealing. Why is this a good thing? Okay, imagine the kinds of really nasty, nigh-indestructible characters there have been: Cabdru, Ravon, Hunsobo, Nreisshe. Every time someone rolls something that takes full advantage of game mechanics and starts steamrolling the playerbase, people bitch. Thieves fill the niche in that their skillsets are often uniquely able to disable these kinds of beasts for a little while, until they build back up and continue their rampage.

You complain about having to wait out effects, then get one of your buddies to roll something to fix you. Ranger explorer or a healer comes to mind. There's even a really accessible prep you can find that gives healing sleep. Or, just tough it out and stop whining.

The reason that your argument holds no water is because there are a number of one-trick-pony classes out there. Hell, warrior bashes are overpowered. So many classes except for a couple can't do anything against all the different ways warriors have to completely command deny other players. That's frustrating. I hate eating pk deaths more than I hate having to go get a couple pieces of gear or some preps to cover what a thief took.

d

nt

And you know what ... even thugs damn them too!

But there are even more unhonorable people - the mages. I speak about those unhonorable mages who were lucky enough to find their cheap little dirty rods.

You know, it's almost impossible to kill these dirty bastards (at least much much much much much much harder than unhonorable thiefs) and they can make you run all over the Thera wasting your time too. And the most unhonorable of their tricks (like quicksand or neurogocial disruption) can make you waste your very important time gathering different magical preparations or even some "special" armors. And overall fighting these unhonorable dogs is very taxing process as well. I don't even want to speak about unhonorable druids who can basically do as many unhonorable things as half of all other classes.

Shall we finally leave the Thera only for us, the honorable warriors, bards and assassins who didn't practice how to hide?


P.S. I can only imagine the amount of hatred somenew new to CF may recieve from us if he accidentally makes the thief right now. I suggest we don't even let him leave his guild then so he doesn't even get the chance to do anything unhonorable accidentally.

Agree sort of, but not really. Thieves are kind of like necromancers: fairly fragile in their "natural state" but able to totally disable an enemy under the right circumstances. I'd point out that thieves are not the only class that can do this to you. Rangers, certain warriors, necros, bards, certain invokers, certain conjurers. The two main gripes against thieves seems to be:

1. many people can't see them coming so they can't be avoided,
2. they often steal without actually trying to kill.

No one likes waiting off long affects that can't be removed and are 100% debilitating.

The greater concern with thieves seems to be that there is no middle ground in terms of winning and losing. You say that you can't see them coming - I think it's more that you can't see them to get them. It's very difficult to catch a hero thief unawares if you can't see hidden. Then if they are successful in their abilities - you die. There's no fight, only avoidance.

I've not had a character in the age of Flaayin but I do recall the sickening frustration of dealing with Yanacek.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

I agree. Not being able to go after them does suck. But aren't assassins kind of the same way? If the guy doesn't want to fight you he just tries to get lucky with assassinate and flees/teleports when he fails.

Assassins have to stalk and that can be dealt with. Once they attack you they can't hide again immediately.

>Agree sort of, but not really. Thieves are kind of like
>necromancers: fairly fragile in their "natural state" but able
>to totally disable an enemy under the right circumstances.
>I'd point out that thieves are not the only class that can do
>this to you.

>Rangers: Primordial vengeance is hardly completely debilitating and rangers don't have a lot of other malediction options. ambush;snare;ambush is a lot easier to avoid than a thief.

>certain warriors: All their stuff has to be applied in combat, giving you a chance to kill them before they disable you.

>necros: The closest IMHO, but they *can* fight you with a zombie army and wands, and all of their stuff is curable or has a short duraation. I haven't die to sleep as a non-rager in a looong time.

>bards: Fiend is what makes their sleep/sing up dangerous, and it is fairly narrow in it's application. I'd take being slept by a bard over dealing with a thief any day.

>certain invokers, certain conjurers: I'm not sure how either of these fit really.

> The two main gripes
>against thieves seems to be:
>
>1. many people can't see them coming so they can't be
>avoided,
>2. they often steal without actually trying to kill.

I'll add one.

3. Getting revenge on them is as hard or harder than getting revenge on a conservatively played ranger, especially since thief guilds encourage thieves not to fight each other.

>>Rangers: Primordial vengeance is hardly completely
>debilitating and rangers don't have a lot of other malediction
>options. ambush;snare;ambush is a lot easier to avoid than a
>thief.

I was thinking more of snare;ambush;bearcharge;!;!;!. Avoiding them is easier, sure, but unless you're willing to avoid the wilderness entirely they always have a chance at you.

>>certain warriors: All their stuff has to be applied in
>combat, giving you a chance to kill them before they disable
>you.

I was thinking of sword/bash specs here against opponents without bash protection. If I'm playing a thief, orc, bard, or in some cases even another warrior, and dude gets to me before I can change size...there's a good chance I'm dead meat.

>>necros: The closest IMHO, but they *can* fight you with a
>zombie army and wands, and all of their stuff is curable or
>has a short duraation. I haven't die to sleep as a non-rager
>in a looong time.

I haven't died to one either in a long time, but when I'm fighting them regularly I tend to. It mostly comes down to whether you can cure blindness and/or whether you have any refresh preps on you. This is assuming you actually have the ability to flee once being slept and summoned. If you can cure the blindness and refresh yourself then you probably live. If you can't cure the blindness (and can't remove curse) then you probably die.

>>bards: Fiend is what makes their sleep/sing up dangerous,
>and it is fairly narrow in it's application. I'd take being
>slept by a bard over dealing with a thief any day.

Depends on the bard and the thief for me. Also whether I have a mental vuln and/or perma flight, whether I've prepared to escape a thief post-steal, and how long the bard has to sing/brandish/recite me up. A bard with full sleep duration and the right scrolls and talismans can probably screw you. But yeah- generally speaking I'm more concerned when slept by a thief. (It also helps that I rarely play giants).

>>certain invokers, certain conjurers: I'm not sure how either
>of these fit really.

In mentioning these examples I wasn't referring to the long durations on stuff, just the fact that other classes can put their opponents in really-hard-to-live-through situations. Evil conjie can gaunt you to gross spots and juice up his gaunts enough that most people can't beat them. Invoker can gank people in quicksand who can't see through improved invis.

>3. Getting revenge on them is as hard or harder than getting
>revenge on a conservatively played ranger, especially since
>thief guilds encourage thieves not to fight each other.

Rangers rarely fight each other. It's always hard to get revenge on someone you can't see. Thieves are no different. You just have to force him into a situation where he has to fight. Hard if he's uncaballed; obviously easier if he is.