Wherein I try to extract cogent arguments from Dirt's posts and brand them as my own in the hopes they might be discussed in a dispassionate manner:

1. Should there be a hard cap on thief points regardless of the source? Possibly 120? Because currently 2x Devious + Reward (i.e. 130) is fairly doable. At level 42 no less.

2. Does giving imm xp (i.e. currency for edges, which confer non-trivial game-play advantages) for role entries distort the way the role command is used and, in fact, not result in better role-play?

3. Does tying edge points to observation/exploration xp just motivate people to "game the system" (by re-observing/exploring areas they've already visited multiple times) and not actually enhance anyone's fun? Instead of the intended effect of rewarding players who do more than just hang around Galadon and Eastern Road, it seems to have rewarded whomever is willing to undertake the monotonous task of exploring/observing the same areas with each successive character.

>1. Should there be a hard cap on thief points regardless of
>the source? Possibly 120? Because currently 2x Devious +
>Reward (i.e. 130) is fairly doable. At level 42 no less.

And that's about as high as you'll see anyone get. While it is possible to take Devious Versatility up to 5 times, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone take it 3 due to the cost, and basically forgoing every other possible edge.

So no, I don't really think there needs to be a cap on thief points.

Look all
or even better,
l all?

Maybe throw some lag onto the command, heck even a tick. Even if this would be Over Powered, it would increase peoples drive to look at things all at once for those not interested and allow those who DO read what they're looking at a chance to find things they never knew.

It's a command that is useable.

n/t

I think he's talking about objects in a room. "look all" to look at all the unique stuff, like the box or chair, in a room. Not look at all the exits.

Just wrote a role today at work while watching EDI files....Darnit.

No, it doesn't work like you want it to.

There used to be a way to do this, you could go into a room and do look 1., look 2., look 3. all the way up and eventually look at everything in the room including all the secret hidden goodies. They removed that a few years ago so they'll probably not put anything like it back in.

>Wherein I try to extract cogent arguments from Dirt's posts
>and brand them as my own in the hopes they might be discussed
>in a dispassionate manner:
>
>1. Should there be a hard cap on thief points regardless of
>the source? Possibly 120? Because currently 2x Devious +
>Reward (i.e. 130) is fairly doable. At level 42 no less.
>

No. To me that is like saying shifters shouldn't get a quest forms or warriors third legacies or three virtues for paladins, etc. Well played characters should be able to earn useful rewards. Its not trivial to get extra thief points and going beyond 130 I think would be a stretch for most characters.

I would never be able to make a killer thief. I would never be able to make a killer character in general because prepping is a pain. Heck gear gathering is a pain. The time to do anything in CF is way too large for returning players who now have any sort of life.

Couple the time issue with such a low player base in combination with a couple of very seasoned veterans still around the results in the distance between the haves and have-nots is enormous. I feel sorry for newbs and returning vets alike.

If there were some sort of gate that let you jump from city to city I would come back and stay back. You know something like a gate that can only be used once every 24 Theran hours. Locate them at the healers in the major cities. No characters under adrenaline can use and no objects of power can be taken through.

Heck maybe make them only available in hometowns and only open if the characters of that hometown donate 10,000 gold to the healer's guild to maintain 'em. Have the core Tribunal cities all maintain theirs giving the Tribs in Seantryn a bit more love. Heck the entire south continent has a lot of amazing exploration to be done but accessibility really is an issue.

Something, anything not to have to wait, even using speedwalk, for five minutes to get to where I want to get. Would help people gather preps, gather gear, organize groups, set up ambush points for more PK, make Seantryn not so lonely etc.

Oh well just a pipe dream.

GLWYN all.

>Wherein I try to extract cogent arguments from Dirt's posts
>and brand them as my own in the hopes they might be discussed
>in a dispassionate manner:
>
>1. Should there be a hard cap on thief points regardless of
>the source? Possibly 120? Because currently 2x Devious +
>Reward (i.e. 130) is fairly doable. At level 42 no less.

My issue with neo-thieves have to do with playstyle, so whether a thief has 20 or 200 thief points doesn't really change the fact that I avoid thieves as a general rule because the satisfaction of killing them and full-saccing their stuff isn't worth the risk of losing my entire inventory for the umpteenth time to a character with little chance of killing me and even less change of even trying. Stealing thieves are stupid and I'd rather face the insta-kill-with-dual-bs-at-level-35 style thieves of old.

>2. Does giving imm xp (i.e. currency for edges, which confer
>non-trivial game-play advantages) for role entries distort the
>way the role command is used and, in fact, not result in
>better role-play?

The role command shouldn't be required, but it is required in the minds of so many Imms, it isn't even funny. Try playing an arch-type obvious role, but without using the role command. See if your character ever receives attention. The only reason I update my role after the initial entry (which usually explains the entirety of my character and his/her goals and purpose for being) is to get imm exp to get edges I don't have. Most of the reason I write initial role entries early in characters life (when they are most likely to be aborted) is so I can get cool sleeves which have an imm-xp requirement. I consider the role command to be in the same category as the desc command. I do it to fulfill the requirements of the game, but it adds little to no enjoyment to me. If I was interested in creative writing as a hobby, I'd be writing fanfic or something else, not role entries.

>3. Does tying edge points to observation/exploration xp just
>motivate people to "game the system" (by
>re-observing/exploring areas they've already visited multiple
>times) and not actually enhance anyone's fun? Instead of the
>intended effect of rewarding players who do more than just
>hang around Galadon and Eastern Road, it seems to have
>rewarded whomever is willing to undertake the monotonous task
>of exploring/observing the same areas with each successive
>character.

I enjoy exploring, for a purpose, but I type look at random monsters and random hidden objects with character after character so I can get obs xp and explore xp for edges. This is not the same behaviour as when I'm actually exploring an area for a purpose.

When edges originally came in it was stated that if an edge became "essential" for a class that it would simply become a default ability of said class. I think there are quite a few edges that fall in that category, but to my knowledge no edge has ever simply become part of a race/class.

You just don't understand the perimeters of the quest.

If you are talking about a completely different arm-wear, well, um, I don't know what you are talking about :)

I've done that quest with multiple characters of all different alignments and types, and the only factor as to whether it initiates or not has been if I had more than X Immortal XP (other than being under the level req).

I used to think it was based on one of a handful of other (really stupid) conditions, but I've managed to prove all those ideas incorrect.

Oh well. Either way, I can get the pwntastic sleeves one way or another, so I don't really care why it works as long as it does :)

...but all you need is for the item to be in (because although it isn't limited, it's NOT ALWAYS IN) and for you to be the correct level range.

I've done it with a character with 0 IMM xp (about a year and a half ago).

This MAY have changed, but I doubt it.

1. I don't have a good feel for this. My last thief only had 100 thief points and I thought he was already very powerful for what he was designed for. 120 would have gotten me another fun toy or two, like blackjack, but is 130 really that big a deal over 120? Maybe I haven't done enough of the math on the perfect thief build. I'll defer to others like you that have had better thieves on that, but I don't see the big difference.

2. Yes, giving imm xp for role entries distorts the way the role command is used. I'll argue it does make for better role-play though. First off, I never roll a guy without a role anymore. Even I'm rolling a ranger I just plan to screw around with during a slow period at work, I'll write a role for him, just because 1000 imm xp is better than nothing. If this system encourages more people to have roles than not, I think it's a positive.

Second, for me imm xp gives me an excuse to pace and add role entries. I won't lie I add more role entries purely for the xp and the odd shot at winning a role contest. However, it gives me an excuse to write down what I'm already thinking of my guy as he grows and ages. I find the act of writing it down helps crystalize it in my head and actually does make me play better.

3. I have two answers for this one.

a) Yes, tying edge points to observation/exploration motivates people to do terribly unfun, boring things, over and over. The upside is huge though, the movement points alone can be nice at mid levels, and so it is human nature to figure out the easiest way to get through repetitive tasks. People will game the system, and the people who game it best will have an advantage over those who do not.

b) This is a slippery slope to the core of CF. Obs/Explore, leveling, empowerment, Cabal induction, limited items, preps, wands, heck even minotaur slots. The principle of CF is "Yes, it's annoying, but the people who know how to do it well and are willing to do it over and over and over get an advantage."

Running obs/explore runs with every character isn't much different then leveling in the same zones with every character, or searching 52 distinct wand locations for the 6th time this year, or waiting around to get two recommendations (or an absentee leader) to a cabal you're already had 12 characters in in the past, or raising gold with yet another character to buy the same preps again and again, or checking if mob X holds the magic Y you've been looking for after every reset, etc.

What I like about the Obs/Explore timesink as opposed to almost all the others is that it can be done mostly solo. I don't need to wait for a cabal leader, or an imm, or the right leveling group, or some person to delete so I get the rare weapon he's hoarding, or wait til the merchants I can sell to have money, etc. At least when I log in and find few people on there's something I can do to at least feel like I'm progressing for a bit.

1.) What makes thieves "scary" (the more appropriate term is annoying) is the skill steal. Having two or even three entire thief paths doesn't make a thief overwhelmingly tough it just gives them a lot more utility. I mean honestly what combination of thief paths really worries you more then the steal skill. You can't remove the steal skill and have them still be thieves and what is annoying is that if you die in a PK there is a chance someone makes off with your gear. If you have to deal with a thief there is almost a garuntee that you will have to replace most of your inventory which is time consuming(especially prep bags) and it is significantly easier for a thief to steal from you then it is to be turned into a corpse in general. It is also frustrating because it can be near impossible to retaliate against a thief who is not interested in trying to kill you.

2.) I don't think role xp adds to actual in game role play in any way, shape, or form. However I also don't believe that it detracts from it at all either. My only complaint about rewards is a personal one that after like 14 years of playing I have never recieved anything beyond trivial rewards and I am frankly envious of players who get medium or significant rewards because I swear I have had to do at least one thing over the course of so much time that warranted an actually mechanically useful reward. That however is a different discussion.

3.) I don't get what you mean by game the system. I have no problem achieving 40K combined observe and explore xp before hitting hero with usually at least 30 kills in 60 hours. I like the explore XP system especially because I garuntee you that I wouldn't be trying to get buddies to explore high lords keep at rank 40 instead of waiting till hero when nothing agro's on me otherwise. It provides a solid incentive for taking cracks at tough areas before they get easier.

>1.) What makes thieves "scary" (the more appropriate term is
>annoying) is the skill steal. Having two or even three entire
>thief paths doesn't make a thief overwhelmingly tough it just
>gives them a lot more utility. I mean honestly what
>combination of thief paths really worries you more then the
>steal skill. You can't remove the steal skill and have them
>still be thieves and what is annoying is that if you die in a
>PK there is a chance someone makes off with your gear. If you
>have to deal with a thief there is almost a garuntee that you
>will have to replace most of your inventory which is time
>consuming(especially prep bags) and it is significantly
>easier for a thief to steal from you then it is to be turned
>into a corpse in general. It is also frustrating because it
>can be near impossible to retaliate against a thief who is not
>interested in trying to kill you.

There is a big difference between "scary" (PK strength) and simply annoying people by being a steal-n-run thief.

I think thief points translate directly into toughness, which is why thief skills have costs and prerequisites. Likewise, the original-original-poster (Dirt?) was complaining more about the number of strength of a certain thief's abilities. Obviously skill, game knowledge, gear, etc. all play a huge role in PK toughness as well, but specifically in the case of thieves, paths/points definitely make or break characters.

Steal is never going away, and in practice, it's use is probably 90% nuisance and 10% tactics. That is to say that most thieves use steal to score nice gear and not simply to disable a person as part of a larger scheme to PK them. It's a VERY potent skill in PK, but totally separate from PK, it's also a very annoying skill. I think most people have a problem with the latter, not the former.

>Wherein I try to extract cogent arguments from Dirt's posts
>and brand them as my own in the hopes they might be discussed
>in a dispassionate manner:
>
>1. Should there be a hard cap on thief points regardless of
>the source? Possibly 120? Because currently 2x Devious +
>Reward (i.e. 130) is fairly doable. At level 42 no less.

Yes. Theives have the potential to be insanely powerful with too many points. I think once you get over a certain amount of points, any effort put towards game balance by the staff, however well thought out, goes out the window.

>2. Does giving imm xp (i.e. currency for edges, which confer
>non-trivial game-play advantages) for role entries distort the
>way the role command is used and, in fact, not result in
>better role-play?

I don't think the quality of RP is any better just because the percentage of characters with a (decent) role is higher only because a subset of those players wrote roles only for the purpose of getting edges.

I think some people write basic roles just to score 1k - 2k worth of Immortal XP for the sole purpose of getting edge points, and I'm fine with that.

I don't think it leads to better RP or higher quality characters.

>3. Does tying edge points to observation/exploration xp just
>motivate people to "game the system" (by
>re-observing/exploring areas they've already visited multiple
>times) and not actually enhance anyone's fun? Instead of the
>intended effect of rewarding players who do more than just
>hang around Galadon and Eastern Road, it seems to have
>rewarded whomever is willing to undertake the monotonous task
>of exploring/observing the same areas with each successive
>character.

Edges have a HUGE impact on the game. Most single edges alone aren't game-changers, but having an entire collection of choice edges absolutely makes a most builders quite a bit stronger. Plus, there's things like the re-roll edges for shifters (expensive) that quite literally transform a character's build. Then you've got edges that info extra affinity, thief points, etc. "Gaming the system" for edge points has almost become an obligatory part of assembling a strong character, and not something a lot of players would consider optional or "extra".

When I come down from a character, it's REALLY hard to get excited about a new one without a break of a few weeks or more because I know how grueling it is farming all the XP I'm going to need to have the things I've grown accustom to (basically, I'm spoiled).

Unfortunately, I can't think of an alternative. I like that the current system accommodates characters who may not be PK-oriented, for example. Since obviously we don't want all the benefits of edge points to simply be free, players need to earn them somehow, and the current system seems to be more effective and fair than anything else I can come up with, especially with regards to accommodating all character and player types.

1. If by reward you mean Imm reward for winning a contest, then I suppose it could be governed manually. Just give the thief some other kind of reward instead of more thief points, if you think he's over the top already.

Besides, there are worse things. Anti-paladin charges are totally uncapped, for example.

2. Hmmm? You mean that having no reward for roles would make people focus more on actual interaction? Probably would only discourage writing roles, in my opinion.

There are people that just suck at interaction, but like to elaborate on roles. With role you can take as much time as you want and polish the text, and I personally am fond of ability to compensate this way for my poor conversation skills.

3. Yes, probably. Kinda feel the tedium already, and I'm not a vet at all.

On each of my characters, I feel completely obligated to sit at the hamsah docks and tap my aliases for each and every boat when they come, for about 2-3 hours. I do not find this fun, but I have more patience than death, so I do it, as the edge reward is very significant.

I would vehemently support anything that would make it so I do not have to do things like this. As an avid explorer (perhaps TOO avid some would say), I believe I know more explore places/things than most, which just means more stuff I feel obligated to look at with each character. If, somehow, it could save your observe from previous characters and give it to your future characters (perhaps doled out over time, or at lvl 51, that would be great, but I feel it is a little powergamey.

However, I strongly feel that imm exp, pk (in an AP charge type fashion, not pure numbers), and levels should be the ONLY sources of edge points. Imm exp being the overwhelmingly superior to the other two of course. This would make, in my humble ability to make predictions, RP far more common, as you could not just explore your way to the edges you need and otherwise shun RP.

Edit: If this means fewer edges being picked overall, that would be completely fine.

I believe either of these choices would remove a significant amount of the monotony of redundant exploration.

gr

Because you seem to get more exp if you go at lower level, I quite enjoy the challenge of trying to go through explore areas when they are still very dangerous to me. Think I've been through Trothon at level 36 with a druid, for example. Something like that. I remember taking initiate of the deserts or whatever it was specifically for that (although it's a damn nice edge all round).

In theory limiting the ways to gain edges might be interesting. Gain a small amount of edge points for leveling. For Pking as well (though I think that hinders some characters and not everyone is as PK focused and so I think that is why you have obs/exp as compensation for those who don't PK or not well)

Immteraction would be a great one, but I think there is lots of roleplay that goes on, and you'll almost never get imm xp for it. Stellar RP enhances the game, and maybe if it is in the presence of an Imm you might get a little imm exp (Lasentia got it twice when Cyradia and Enlilth came to the inn for random little RP sessions) but if you spend 2 or three hours rp'ing with other characters, 99% of the time you're doing it for the fun of it, you're not going to get any sort of reward for those things.

Leaders I imagine spend countless hours rp'ing with applicants and cabal members, but they're not getting any rewards for that, even though they could be out pk'ing or something where they might gain an edge point or two. It's part of the duty yes, but I don't think there are enough Imms to monitor general character RP to the point where you can make imm exp a major part of the edge point system. Imm xp for roles is fine, and I like to think most people do play out their roles and so the imm exp for the role is kind of a general reward for their overall rp since the Imms can not be ever watchful.

I would not mind a shift in people having fewer edges overall, but edges doing a bit more. That way you're more selective in what you do with them. I know I can explore a lot, have a decently written role, and by hero I can take about 5/6 top tier edges and a few others pretty easily, so deciding what to pick is almost trivial. But if I knew I might only be able to choose one or two of the top edges, that could be interesting and I might make the decision more carefully. I also don't want to reward the top pk'ers by giving them edge points (even on the A-P charge system) since they would get those added edges that the less elite players would not be able to cause they can't PK as well.

Overall, the system works. If you want edges, you can do the PK route, but the obs/exp route is there for everyone to make use of, and it is capped so you can't really exploit it. And I also like rexploring areas, but I haven't played for 5-10 years so I still see some new things most passes.

Take some of the more significant, expensive, and otherwise desirable edges and refactor their respective classes or builds such that the benefit of the edge becomes more of a class-customization thing.

I'd rather see class become even more diverse and configurable than have to rely on farming edge points just to "max out" aspects of my build.

Edges would then be minor bonuses, tweaks to mechanics (like civic elementalist, etc.), and things like.

Things you get edge points from
Imm XP
Explore XP
Observe XP
Commerce XP
Leveling
Player Killing

Imms can of course just flat out give or take away edge points or edges.

>If, somehow, it
>could save your observe from previous characters and give it
>to your future characters (perhaps doled out over time, or at
>lvl 51, that would be great, but I feel it is a little
>powergamey.

I really don't see that happening, since we really have no 100% accurate way to guarantee you are who you say you are.

>However, I strongly feel that imm exp, pk (in an AP charge
>type fashion, not pure numbers), and levels should be the ONLY
>sources of edge points. Imm exp being the overwhelmingly
>superior to the other two of course. This would make, in my
>humble ability to make predictions, RP far more common, as you
>could not just explore your way to the edges you need and
>otherwise shun RP.

I'm not sure why you're tying edges to RP. They are given out as rewards for RP at times, but that's not why they're there. I think if anything changed for observation/exploration it would be lowering the cap on how many edge points you can get from doing so.

is to make imm exp more common for random snoops, and remove obs/explore exp relating to edges.

Not suggesting toss out edges more often.

..get rid of much of it as possible. At least in terms of balancing out the game. You've been here freaking forever. We've been enemies and allies and I know you see the game similar to I do. I know now you're on the other side of the curtain now, but don't forget why you fell in love with this game in the first place. Take away the unfun repetitive crap that isn't core to the game. I want CF back to the numbers it had from before and I hate the argument that it's lost its luster due to advanced gaming. That's just straight BS. Our playerbase continues to dwindle because there's just too many additional hoops that have been added now to have a level playing field. Come on Strahd/Trilvain/Zinla, bring CF back to its glory days. I want this game to be around for my kids one day =) If that means I have to Imm in order for that to be true then so be it. Let us know what you need from us in terms of ideas/support. Just do something.

NT