Didn't seem to like it as one giant post, some I'm splitting it up into skills.


Tac

I honestly mean that. I couldn't agree more on a lot of these but it's an uphill battle with the Imms - like saying trapper thieves or 2-handed APs need fixing, they just don't seem to agree over the years.

Good points though.

The fact that none of them has commented here or on my death thread seems to indicate an overall lack of caring about anything I say, or even respect for Thrunna as a character, but maybe they're just busy. Or they just hate my forum persona, or whatever.

Zulgh obviously does his thing on a daily basis and it's great. Twist plays his mortal characters. But no other higher ranking immortal really bothers to have a presence on the boards or even in the game. I see Lyr from time to time and Adekar, Marcatis, and Thror are running their cabals as they're able but that's about it.

Maybe it's just December down time but I would have imagined more free time than less. At least, that's how it is for me as a 30 year old dude with a wife and 2 kids.

Heck, I offered to immort and help out as capable. Twist even went to bat for me. The response was crickets.

Because he's the one that seems to always tell me to put up or shut up, and since I put up it seems like he would at least chime in and tell me where I'm mechanically wrong, but then whatever I post seems to rub the Imms the wrong way, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I personally appreciate it when people offer their opinion on things, so thanks! ;)

n/t

I haven't had a lot of free time period lately, and no CF time.

I'll see how far I can get responding below now.

>I honestly mean that. I couldn't agree more on a lot of these
>but it's an uphill battle with the Imms - like saying trapper
>thieves or 2-handed APs need fixing, they just don't seem to
>agree over the years.

Yeah...that's it...It is a conspiracy to annoy you, specifically. Orcs have been on the list for a long time (just like Shamans & Trappers). Pull your head out of your ass.

>Yeah...that's it...It is a conspiracy to annoy you,
>specifically. Orcs have been on the list for a long time
>(just like Shamans & Trappers). Pull your head out of your
>ass.

I never said it was a conspiracy - I said you don't seem to agree over the years. If you agreed somewhere that 2-handed APs, orcs, and trapper/arcane thieves were bad, I'd love to hear where that was stated.

Since day 1 of trapper thieves, I have played that class to death and said it sucked - they finally started getting improvements to traps and new skills within the last year or so....and how long has it been since neo thieves? When has it ever been said by an Immortal that it was on "the list for a long time" as you just said?

You got any idea how long it took to get morosa fixed/improved? I used it a ton back in December 2007 - back when you *could not* use it on blind people because the syntax of target/hours was reversed. I posted until I was blue in the face about how it needed fixing and it silently got fixed at some point years later, and then just now got an upgrade because of Santa Zulg (thanks btw). In all that time I was told "it's fine", even when it was broken with syntax.

It's no conspiracy Zulg but it is an uphill battle with you guys. You never agree with the constructive posts or say "yeah, we'll work on that" or "yeah it sucks, but it's not that important at the moment". It's silence and that's the uphill battle when balance comes up. Tac puts up a lot of constructive feedback, coming from a serial orc player (kinda how I'm into APs) and it's kinda rare to even get a response. Hell, I did the same on my last orc goodbye thread....nada.

The usual response? Silence or "it's fine".

You know it's not abnormal for game companies to post updates saying "Ya, we're tackling or working on this or this is coming soon..."....just a suggestion. We all have heard about Team Shaman but I didn't know anything about orcs/trappers.

>You know it's not abnormal for game companies to post updates
>saying "Ya, we're tackling or working on this or this is
>coming soon..."....just a suggestion. We all have heard about
>Team Shaman but I didn't know anything about orcs/trappers.

When there is one person writing code for the mud, I'm not going to announce what I work on because I have no idea when I'll have the time/motivation/etc to work on something that large, much less complete it. The shifter revamp took what? 2 years? And the entire time people were asking when the next part is going to be done. WHEN!?

Adopt Blizzard's policy - "It's done when it's done. "Soon" is sometime between now and infinity.

I'd be really happy just to see a list of "ya this is what we're working on" - kind of like a white board list of things you're aware of. You mentioned trapper thieves being "on the list", when I had no clue which was a big part of my comment.

Something is ALWAYS better than nothing. This carries over to Immortal and player discussion, which really needs to grow as well. What about a monthly podcast or irc chat where players get to ask the Imms? I think that'd be cool.

Also, you guys really should enlist some other people to become coders.... I know Hell would start selling ice cream before you'd probably let me code, but I know there are a lot of programmers who play CF.

p.s. Enervating spirits still needs work, Santa Zulg ;)

"It will happen when it happens" has been the stance of the staff for as long as I can remember. There are countless posts where something akin to that has been stated.

Perhaps the next time you want to know when something is going to get done, you can just accept the answer, "It will happen when it happens."

If that isn't good enough, then I would suggest following the "nunya" rule.

-Zulg said trappers/orc were "on the list".
-It's never been stated from my knowledge (you hear about Team Shaman though)
-I've been saying trappers need help since day 1 of neo-thieves.
-Mostly silence from the Immortals or stating "it's fine".
-I suggested a list to clarify what the Imms are working on to improve for less confusion like this.
-He said people would complain if they saw a list that didn't get done in a normal time.
-I said I'd rather see a list with "it'll be done when it's done" then no list


The whole point is to know what's being worked "on the list", instead of the typical silence you get when people like Tac or I or others post about problems from less played classes. You just stated "you want to know when something is going to get done" and right now that's not public knowledge, or if the Immortals even agree. I've no idea what is getting done.

I can pull from every single game out there a basic "what's coming" list in either expansions, patches, improvements, etc. Just asking for the same kind of list.

Right here on the forums...

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=58

Orcs are on that list
Trappers are on that list
Shamans are on that list
Rangers are on that list
Conjurers are on that list
Invokers are on that list
Cabal wars are on that list

Up until recently, the Bounty office was on that list.

I haven't noticed a note with top bounties. Is that not working, or just no one has started bountying yet?

Tac

n/t

a

>You got any idea how long it took to get morosa
>fixed/improved? I used it a ton back in December 2007 - back
>when you *could not* use it on blind people because the syntax
>of target/hours was reversed. I posted until I was blue in the
>face about how it needed fixing and it silently got fixed at
>some point years later, and then just now got an upgrade
>because of Santa Zulg (thanks btw). In all that time I was
>told "it's fine", even when it was broken with syntax.

I don't know when morosa's charge was changed/fixed exactly, but I thought it was just after the last AP I remember who really tried to use it, which I'm guessing was you. I even remember it being announced in some fashion. I can't find it through forum search though, so who knows.

Just an FYI more than anything.

>>You got any idea how long it took to get morosa
>>fixed/improved? I used it a ton back in December 2007 - back
>>when you *could not* use it on blind people because the
>syntax
>>of target/hours was reversed. I posted until I was blue in
>the
>>face about how it needed fixing and it silently got fixed at
>>some point years later, and then just now got an upgrade
>>because of Santa Zulg (thanks btw). In all that time I was
>>told "it's fine", even when it was broken with syntax.

According to source control...
Revision 1.73 2007/12/23 21:48:22 cf-cvs
Making morosascharge work while blind

That's when the syntax changed or when you couldn't do it all while blind?

The syntax was the big one.

Assemble/Rally: The Horde is incredibly frustrating. Not being in the group means no fallback, but you can still nofol pets and nuke them all on accident (which I sadly discovered). You can't order them, they attack things after spinebreak, they don't flee, they don't swim, and Rally seems to work like donkey balls. Given the timer involved, and the effort of gathering a sufficiently strong banner, I would think they would be at least comparably to a fully zombie army. Sadly, that is not the case. They will get literally eaten alive by any inner guardian or tanking character. Also, out of range characters can just flat out kill them, even if you are standing in the room. I didn't play with the horde much with previous chiefs, but I was highly disappointed in this skill. Enough that I actually sent an OOC complaint prayer, which isn't something I do. I keep all my complaining for the forum.

I think fixing them to not screw with spinebreak as most allied mobs are smart enough to not screw with normal knockouts is pretty reasonable and not that hard to do.

I think swimming hordelings or auto-giving them boats would be a step in the right direction, too. It doesn't seem reasonable to have to grab fifteen boats for your horde to me -- it's just too much a pain in the ass.

Horde having the chief's PK is probably a good idea, too.

I can't remember that much about the mechanics of Rally at the moment so I'll skip commenting on that for now.

Rally is supposed to bring any hordelings in the area back to your side (whether they fight or not). This skill is (I assume) neccessary because they don't flee (at all), where a normal charmie flees whenever they aren't in their master's room. I have tried it more than once, and it has never succeeded. It has also has a fairly long cooldown if I am remembering correctly.

Overrun: Tried it a couple of times, couldn't keep it going long enough to make a difference. I don't think there is any echos for the orc doing the overrun, but I wish there were. At least then I would know when it is doing something.

Echoes to the overrunning orc are probably a good addition.

Pillage: Much like scavenging, the effects just don't last long enough to justify the effort. Also, it will let you go -mana, which should be a bug. I don't see why it should require mana at all.

Set Snares: I didn't play around with this as much as with previous orcs because I didn't feel the need to cower in the village as much. Maybe the last batch of changes made it cool, but it is pretty hard to set up a trap as an orc, and the mana required is a lot for weak orc minds. Given that the "good" traps seem to have a chance to backfire now, I could see removing the mana completely and just letting orcs play with this. It would also be nice if it didn't hit group members.

I used this alot, It has tons of uses. (my real problem is I
never really think through my plans heh)
The only real problem I had with it is hitting group mates.

And how did it help you? I'm not trying to be a ####, I'm honestly curious.

nt

Hehe how I ended up using it wasn't so great, what real orc could
do though... I saw the potential. I experimented in adding in things
someone who is a trapper or poison thief could get more milage
out of it.
The coolest trap I set up was after having to run from kharten
I set up a sleep trap in the same place, and had a prep that
was a 0 hour aura. I thought muhuhahahah. and of course he didn't
come. :( Hehe.
There is a bit of lag when they fall into it.
so hide in cave next to trap.
Either A you are warned.
or B you impliment the rest of your
diabolical plan. It like being able to
choose exactly where your fight will take
place. I set the trap, run off and goad whoever
into coming after me. Pause where I set the trap...
Or I'd set it near wherever I was hiding from the
loads of people wanting to kill me and when it went
off book it to another hidey hole.

Now imagine a group hidden in the underdark...
orc A is bait, to goad the target into chasing him.
he passes by his trap, rejoins the group. trap goes off
and group eats target.

Desecration: I desecrated a lot of stuff. I *think* I got the echo that denotes resist holy, or a big desecration twice. The level of the items needed + the time involved + needing to be pk bloody + the unreliability of this skill makes it incredibly difficult to use. I'd suggest increasing the success rate, lowering the item amount/level needed and removing the pk bloody requirement. Even with that, I think it will still be a very niche skill.

Track Prey: I can't imagine a situation in which this skill could be useful. Make it so you can detect nearby PC corpses and it would be worth something.

Enslave/Slaver Edge: Enlsaving giants was cool. Enslaving trolls... well I didn't find anything that were worth it. Having them still run away when you flee made Thrunna a sad panda. I just don't see slaves as strong enough that they necessitate this in-built nerf.

Fashion War Banner: I've said it before. I'll say it again. Even against the race of the banner, with a horde, I'd rather have dual wield then a good banner. As Thrunna I used it exclusively for assembling hordes once I had determined that it just wasn't good enough to use in pk.

I really can't say more than that. Your mileage may have varied, or you may have some unrealistic expectations for what a banner ought to do, but as Gargargh I did so much better with a banner that I would almost cry with joy at the damage output the times that I had a proper banner working for me.

Damage output vs mobs. Yes. Mobs defend like ####. Damage output vs players has a lot more to do with defenses (and getting around them) then how much each hit hurts. There are times when a banner is probably good, but given that they are very heavy and don't last all that long (about the length of assemble horde timer) the odds of fighting another of the same race are fairly low. I guess you could use it to multi-kill folks, but that isn't how I roll. Hzerliach is the only character I killed more than once in the same login as far as I recall, and that only because we were going after a group and he got summoned first.

Tac

nt

Pin: If you can't have it trigger when you aren't tanking, then just make it an NPC only skill and don't tempt orcs into practicing it.

Last Stand: Is not parting blow. Making it parting blow would make it useful. I do think it landed me 1 kill, in the same fight I actually used crushing blow. Fleeing, healing, and using neither (combined with rush) would have won me that fight just as well, with less chance of my dying IMHO.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here at all.

You might have to look at the log to understand my comments about when last stand won me a fight, but the point of it is simply that last stand is sort of like bracelets of retribution, in that, yes, the fireball might kill the person that just killed you, but 99/100 it won't. The only difference being that the 1 time, I guess you live as an orc, and the other person dies. That might be enough to make it useful, but it isn't as useful as something like parting blow.

I'm not completely positive, but I get the feeling that last stand doesn't do what you think it does and/or does something you don't think it does.

Which only matters when I'm hitting wimpy. I.e. when I'm about to die. Seems like it could work on entwine/cutoff or similar, but still doesn't seem like it would be enough to save you if you needed it.

Bloodsteep: Ignoring the weapon restrictions (which are a big deal since you generally don't use sword/dagger/spear as an orc) the "disease" this inflicts doesn't seem worth the effort in time/damage. It also doesn't seem to have a very good infection rate. I was trying to get Mundin infected in the last series of fights before I deleted, and it never tripped. I actually managed to infect him with backbone plague first. This seems wrong. Also, the interference with spinebreak means that using bloodsteep tends to be a bad idea in the very situations where I would consider using it (to wear down someone I can't bash, i.e. a mage/priest).

You can also contract actual plague from looting corpses that have been bloodsteeped. Which sucks because the effects aren't as bad as plague from my experience. Someone can correct me here, but plague is deadly if it is left un-dealt with for too long, where as the orc "disease" from bloodsteep seems to be, at best, annoying.

Steal: I suppose if I could have gotten bully's heist it might have been worthwhile to try to use this skill, but as it is (orc only) it seems almost completely useless.

Bloodletting: This skill is totally overshadowed by the disease carrier edge (which I would strongly advocate become part of the class built-in), costs too much mana, and can't be done often enough. There is an echo that says you can do another, but you actually can't as there are two effects that have to wear off. Honestly, while I did use this skill, I would have been just as well off as Thrunna without ever practicing it. I was trying very hard to find a legitimate use for it, but failed.

IMHO, disease carrier is too double-edged-sword for me to think making it standard is a good idea.

I want to say bloodletting is good for more than diseases but I'm not positive off the top of my head.

Disease carrier is a double-edged-sword in that it is much easier to contract plague/crimson scourge, yes. There is some irregularity in how it effects you (based on how you got it) that may or may not be by design. However, the effects of having plague on you (scourge is it's own ball of wax) are nearly completely negated by the edge. So much so that I used a prep that diseased me purposefully, hoping for others to catch it.

Bloodletting is good for poison too (I don't believe it effects anything else), but orcs are resistant to poison and it is generally a non-factor.

I think you have that backwards; orcs are resistant to disease and I'm not sure they're resistant to poisons.

The effects of poison just aren't nearly as debilitating as disease. You still can regen (as an orc) with poison, and it doesn't nerf mana/move, which IMHO is what makes disease dangerous. Poison is a non-factor (or should be) to any character with innate healing, especially the kind of healing an orc should have on tap.

Headbutt: I strongly suspect that trip lag is the best you can hope for from headbutt. If that is correct (and please please correct me if I'm mistaken) then it either needs to do a lot more damage/trigger savage feeding, or it is completely overshadowed by the relatively inexpensive lasher edge.

>Headbutt: I strongly suspect that trip lag is the best you
>can hope for from headbutt. If that is correct (and please
>please correct me if I'm mistaken) then it either needs to do
>a lot more damage/trigger savage feeding, or it is completely
>overshadowed by the relatively inexpensive lasher edge.
>


I've been too busy with work/family/etc. to play my next character (which I want to be an orc :P) but I don't get this as a matter of basic PK mechanics. Even assuming arguendo that lasher is just as reliable as headbutt, why would lasher render headbutt useless if lasher can only be used with a whip/flail? That doesn't make any sense.

I mean, you can tell me that an orc would never want to wield anything but a whip/flail, but I don't believe you. I think it's facially apparent that each skill has its place.

I would argue that whip/flail is one of, if not the best choice for primary weapon on an orc for these reasons: They are hard to parry in general, and if you look at the classes that learn both:

Flail:
Skill: Anti-Paladin , Lvl 1
Skill: Berserker , Lvl 1
Skill: Healer , Lvl 1
Skill: Shaman , Lvl 1
Skill: Warrior , Lvl 1

Whip:
Skill: Anti-Paladin , Lvl 1
Skill: Berserker , Lvl 1
Skill: Conjurer , Lvl 1
Skill: Healer , Lvl 1
Skill: Invoker , Lvl 1
Skill: Necromancer , Lvl 1
Skill: Ranger , Lvl 1
Skill: Shapeshifter , Lvl 1
Skill: Transmuter , Lvl 1
Skill: Warrior , Lvl 1

Only AP, Warrior and Berserker learn both. They also learn every weapon Bereserkers do, so there isn't much there. You want a hard to parry/dodge weapon because you tank like ####, so you have to outdamage your opponent.

Also, something which you seem to be ignoring is that you have to be either free offhand or be using a banner. Either way, you loose out on offhand parry, and loose in the offense category compared to (for example) an offhand axe.

Headbutt injures you. It isn't much (comparatively), but whether you hit or miss a lash, you aren't taking any damage. And "Headwear for both attacker and target are taken into account for purposes of damage and chance of stunning." which makes it pretty hard to figure out how reliable it is going to be.

Headbutt has the same size restrictions as bash, actually slightly more since you can't headbutt something bigger than you at all, while you can still attempt to bash.

Finally, this: The following round the opponent gets a bonus to hit the attacker if they were unsuccessfully stunned by the attack.

So, to recap, size restrictions, giving up offense and defense of a dual wield, increased chance of getting hit if you are unsuccessful which is determined by a nebulous gear factor like cranial only more so since your helm factors in, and hurting yourself. Why do you think you *would* use it when lasher makes lash reliable (plus -morale)?

Tac

>So, to recap, size restrictions, giving up offense and defense
>of a dual wield, increased chance of getting hit if you are
>unsuccessful which is determined by a nebulous gear factor
>like cranial only more so since your helm factors in, and
>hurting yourself. Why do you think you *would* use it when
>lasher makes lash reliable (plus -morale)?
>
>Tac


1. Flails and whips do not parry well, orcs do not dodge well, and I think the drop from most other weapons to whip is greater than the drop from offhand-wield to no offhand-wield. So I think in some cases I might prefer mace and banner over whip, offhand, and lash.

2. I was really thinking shaman in particular and I prefer maces to whips.

Also, as a couple side notes:

3. I do not see how the Horde is "useless" like you said in your goodbye thread.

4. I'm not sure of your character list other than Tac (outlander fire dagger/exotic?? - I think we played together) and a couple orcs. And I vaguely remember that you favor low-defense-extreme-offense type builds. Am I correct in saying that Thrunna was your most successful character, PK-wise to date, in terms of PKs and PK ratio? If so, don't you think it's a little inconsistent that you're claiming orcs suck in PK and need all these powerups?

Decent PK ratio. Outlander Felar Shifter. Nightreaver (I think?).

>>So, to recap, size restrictions, giving up offense and
>defense
>>of a dual wield, increased chance of getting hit if you are
>>unsuccessful which is determined by a nebulous gear factor
>>like cranial only more so since your helm factors in, and
>>hurting yourself. Why do you think you *would* use it when
>>lasher makes lash reliable (plus -morale)?
>>
>>Tac
>
>
>1. Flails and whips do not parry well, orcs do not dodge
>well, and I think the drop from most other weapons to whip is
>greater than the drop from offhand-wield to no offhand-wield.
>So I think in some cases I might prefer mace and banner over
>whip, offhand, and lash.

Feel free to try it. Your defensive drop doesn't matter as much, since you don't defend. But again, I'll let you prove me wrong. Also, assuming you will have a banner at any given time is faulty. The choice is not between mace/banner and whip/axe, but between whip/axe and mace/nothing.

>2. I was really thinking shaman in particular and I prefer
>maces to whips.

I'm not sure what this means. You'd rather use a mace vs a shaman vs a whip vs a shaman? What does it matter? Maces are heavier = more likely to drop, and headbutt (again AFAIK) isn't permalag, so how is headbutt better than lash?

>Also, as a couple side notes:
>
>3. I do not see how the Horde is "useless" like you said in
>your goodbye thread.

It's addressed in the assemble/rally post.

>4. I'm not sure of your character list other than Tac
>(outlander fire dagger/exotic?? - I think we played together)
>and a couple orcs. And I vaguely remember that you favor
>low-defense-extreme-offense type builds. Am I correct in
>saying that Thrunna was your most successful character,
>PK-wise to date, in terms of PKs and PK ratio? If so, don't
>you think it's a little inconsistent that you're claiming orcs
>suck in PK and need all these powerups?

Tac was Outalander exotic hands and nothing. He never chose a second spec.

Srithra was the other orc. Skruggra. I'm not interested in playing e-peen with character lists. Mine sucks, so I'll bet you'll win. Just because I enjoy playing orcs doesn't mean I enjoy low-defense/high offense builds in general. Thrunna was my most successful orc to date, yes. Pk-wise at hero in general? Certainly. PKs, sure, by 5-10 total wins. Pk Ratio? No. Kehade was 50-2 or 50-3. Most of my characters look more like Srithra, ~40-7 pre-hero, then... disaster.

No, I don't think it is inconsistent. Especially since I don't think orcs suck at pk. Pre-hero, they are in fact disgusting. I'm betting I could pull a Shura with a level 35 Shig-ru.

I've said in the past that they suck at HERO pk, and that has been true at many times in the past. It has been shown (at least under some circumstances) that Maumlauk is viable at hero. I believe I've shown Shig-ru as viable. I haven't seen Mundugu or Skuggra as viable, but I haven't played one since the most recent changes.

Now while I can't imagine how either on of those could do well at hero (they appear to lack anything offensively to make them frightening), regardless of changes, I chose not to make any comments about them because I just don't know. I haven't played one.

The point of the whole thread is not to say, orcs suck, please make headbutt lag 5 rounds and never miss, but rather to say, "Headbutt sucks. I just played one of the most successful orcs to date and found it useless. If you think that headbutt is a skill that should be used, it needs to be changed, here is the manner I would suggest."

Tac

gr

.

Remember purple crack? He just thinks that your criteria for determining character success are weird.

Yeah, you're right, I didn't get that you were agreeing Orcs were viable at hero as is.

My overall point re: your success is simply that if (1) orcs are viable as is, and (2) your most successful PK character at hero, ever, was an orc, don't you (3) think it is a little crazy to propose changes to orc skills that are clearly powerups?

You can take my unsolicited advice with a grain of salt, but maybe you would have more mileage with your skill suggestions if you could think of a way to change the "usefulness" of a skill without flat out making it more powerful when the class - by your own admission - does not need more powerups to make it competitive at any rank from 1 to 51.

Orcs are confusing to get a grasp on, balance wise. You have people like you that say they're viable as is, and then you have people like Torak, above, seemingly saying they're nigh unplayable at hero, and then you have people that still think Sip should never have been fixed :P Throwing out the hyperbole (like calling assemble horde useless) just adds to the white noise and really detracts from your point of view IMO. It seems from your line of posts going back and forth with Torak, above, that you're frustrated with the lack of response to your ideas, and that maybe-might-could have something to do with it, who knows.

Re: flail/whip/mace. Like I said, I think there are times when, for example, (1) you're fighting a shaman, (2) you want to parry better, and (3) the lack of a dualed weapon is not a net negative. I wasn't saying "headbutt was better than lash," I was saying that "headbutt is not useless." But like you said, I'll feel free to try it. :)

Headbutt shouldn't trigger savage feeding. Have you ever actually headbutted someone? Your chin, and thus your mouth, is in completely the wrong position to bite someone in. It's just how it is man. I get that you had a frustrating experience, but you can't just toss physiology out the window. Unless you're a muter.

Theran physiology isn't what RL physiology is. I don't see how you can bite someones face while attempting to bash them (knock them over without falling over yourself) either. But somehow orcs manage.

Scavenging: I don't know why the effects of this are so short lived, but for the small benefits you gain from it, I don't see why they can last longer (~24hrs) with perhaps Gifted Scavenger (which Thrunna didn't have) double that.