Levels 5->20

Everytime an area is tweaked or modified on carrionfields it is ALWAYS to tone the area down. I wrote a note to the immstaff in the game the other day telling them that the money situation S-U-C-K-E-D at low levels. Everyone I grouped with was a newbie that night, and they all were starving. I can barely feed myself because there isn't any goddamn money for low levels.

I don't want to spend my time as a low level. I want to level out of that horrible range because:
1. You can't kill or do anything interesting.
2. You can't explore because your MV regen rates suck.
3. If you explore at this point you will DIE.
4. You can't get enough money to survive (feed yourself / train / practice / heal plague, poison / buy a potion?
4a. I guess there's money out there if you know it. But newbies ain't gonna find it (see 1. and 2. and 3.)
5. Pk sucks at this range for a lot of classes. Too gear dependant.

If CF immortals want to start toning area's down and balancing the CF economy they need to stop hitting pre 20's. It seems that pre-20 money sources are ALWAYS the ones on the cutting block.

(rich merchants on forest road)
(the galadon inn mobs)
(prosimy mobs) <-- taken from 1+ gold to ####ing -0- copper?!?!

By chance I encounted an area where the mobs carry decent silver. I expect this area to be next, because lowbies aren't supposed to have MONEY!

Also, was any leveling area put in to compensate for the loss of the white tower? It ain't half as easy to level out of the bitch ranks as it used to be as an evil char. That area was great. Oppositely aligned mobs that were fairly easy to kill... Plus more pk then you could shake a stick at. Baah. whatever.

PS: screwing up emerald forest sucked too. Sucks for evils leveling, sucks for rangers who used this area to pk.

It's getting too big, and covers too amny topics. If anyone wants to continue discussion of one of the topics covered within, they are welcome to start a new, more specific thread.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

About the economic model and shoppies, I have a few suggestions on: what to sell, how to sell, where to sell.

1. What to sell
Really, just lowering prices won't do the trick most of the time. Anyone rank 10+ finds it easier to run to Galadon and smack up Tarus for his bracers than buying something. The point is that bought items are not worth any money, there should be better items for sale. If it will cost 1 gold or more, depends on how good it is in comparison to running to the mob to grab it. If you think just selling the item is too easy, make a simple mini-quest where your favorite shoppie can make you, let's say, a snow worm leggings similar, if you bring him a pill of cure critical and 100 gold. He could even tell of a few places to look for the pill (or the item you feel best suited to avoid some pitfalls).

2. How to sell.
Just having the stuff is not enough. People must know you have it and that it's really something they would appreciate buying. Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's feaseble for a mob to look you up, have an idea of your class and if what you wear is crap, and start the old salesman talk to convince you he has something better for a just price. "The craftsman says 'Look at this, really such a pair of steel boots, reinforced and many times reforged, will prove more durable, saving your feet from many blows. See! the spikes on it's outside can make anyone who dares to challenge you suffer. I guarantee you'll be more satisfied with these than with your old boots.'"
This way I have a pretty decent idea of how good the item is and might be tempted to buy it.

3. Where to sell.
Selling a charred bracer similar at Galadon ain't a smart move for any trader. On the other hand, if I could get a decent newbie set between Arkham and Seatryn, and I'm from one of these cities, it might prove more interesting than legging miles and miles for all of it.

4. New options
Now, I mentioned a craftsman on purpose. Why not have folks making your goodies on demand? It's an avenue where your knowledge in certain areas of the mud can compensate ignorance of other areas.
If I know pretty well the main land but little of ultra-marine continents or the past, why not using this knowledge to have people craft the items others can get with their knowledge of other lands? Surely it might prove more profitable if I had the lacking info and went for myself, but it's an option that, IMHO, improves the game.
Even highly prized items could be set against different challenges to have the material a smith or enchanter needs to make it for you.
A certain enchanter might only allow invokers in his house, or have a bias against assassins and give them really tough missions... all is fair in a diverse world. Mind you that none of this is secret info, but widespread fame and ads from the very same craftsman. (Heh, I'm forseeing brand new PK spots) And more, this way really powerful and wise individuals could have (near) unique items - would be awesome (if I ever was that powerful and wise, that is).

4. About food and drink.
Although IMO it's not that an important issue... Sometimes I find it odd that travelers, messengers and other mobs are supposedly traveling great distances and carry no food or water with them. *wink*
A round of applause to Eregion in this topic.

5. My rant - conjies
Given all the pain they go through and all the ways to screw them up, the latest nerfs feels like a kick on the groins. Pretty please review them (as in tone them up).

6. Levelling
I still rank good ol'FoN the best area ever, when it was just a few steps west of Galadon. The easiness to rank and the blatant risk of PK was thrilling. Truly an area where my heartbeat rate went up, and I miss it.

7. Interesting areas for lowbies (and midbies too)
Was thinking about the academy, and the concept of an area where only a certain rank range can enter/remain seems very compelling. Interesting ways could be found to justify the restrictions, such as: guildmasters contest through their students (publicizing which guild is better ranked would be nice), a misterious exit from the academy, intra-guild trials, etc... This way the area can be tailored especifically to challenge a rank range without giving anything away to the more experienced.

I probably went too far in all this, oh well, just hope something is useful.

2. How to sell.
Just having the stuff is not enough. People must know you have it and that it's really something they would appreciate buying. Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's feaseble for a mob to look you up, have an idea of your class and if what you wear is crap, and start the old salesman talk to convince you he has something better for a just price. "The craftsman says 'Look at this, really such a pair of steel boots, reinforced and many times reforged, will prove more durable, saving your feet from many blows. See! the spikes on it's outside can make anyone who dares to challenge you suffer. I guarantee you'll be more satisfied with these than with your old boots.'"
This way I have a pretty decent idea of how good the item is and might be tempted to buy it.

The Browse command handles this, at about the depth we're willing to go into.

5. My rant - conjies
Given all the pain they go through and all the ways to screw them up, the latest nerfs feels like a kick on the groins. Pretty please review them (as in tone them up).

Huh? I'm seeing more of these (at least evil ones, which I watch more) than ever. I don't even know what "latest" changes you're referring to.

6. Levelling
I still rank good ol'FoN the best area ever, when it was just a few steps west of Galadon. The easiness to rank and the blatant risk of PK was thrilling. Truly an area where my heartbeat rate went up, and I miss it.

We won't be making one-stop-shopping levelling areas.

7. Interesting areas for lowbies (and midbies too)
Was thinking about the academy, and the concept of an area where only a certain rank range can enter/remain seems very compelling. Interesting ways could be found to justify the restrictions, such as: guildmasters contest through their students (publicizing which guild is better ranked would be nice), a misterious exit from the academy, intra-guild trials, etc... This way the area can be tailored especifically to challenge a rank range without giving anything away to the more experienced.

I don't understand what the benefits of this would be. We're certainly interested in expanding the content and style of low/mid-level areas (compare The Keep of the Righteous or The Temple of Loch Grynmear with older low-level areas), but I don't see why having a level 15-20-only area would help us. One downside that leaps to mind is that level 20 people could run in to avoid level 21 enemies, etc. There's a lot of scenarios like this, but the bottom line is that once PK range is involved, this gets messy.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>5. ...
>
>Huh? I'm seeing more of these (at least evil ones, which I
>watch more) than ever. I don't even know what "latest"
>changes you're referring to.
>
I'll try and elaborate on this in another ocasion, after gathering some more info.


>6. ...
>
>We won't be making one-stop-shopping levelling areas.
>
Point taken.


>7. ...
>
>I don't understand what the benefits of this would be. We're
>certainly interested in expanding the content and style of
>low/mid-level areas (compare The Keep of the Righteous or The
>Temple of Loch Grynmear with older low-level areas), but I
>don't see why having a level 15-20-only area would help us.
>One downside that leaps to mind is that level 20 people could
>run in to avoid level 21 enemies, etc. There's a lot of
>scenarios like this, but the bottom line is that once PK range
>is involved, this gets messy.
>
Allow me to answer this with a hipothetical example.
Let's say we are all playing Undermountain(tm) from D&D(tm), and you like the game so much you start devisign an area for CF inspired in that. We'll call it Paths of ol'Fire (PooF) for namesake.
Prelude:
All the guildmasters of Thera, worried about their own reputations and that of their guilds, decide to make a trial grounds for those that train under them. It'll be a place where they assess the development of those between level 21st and 31st. Gathering together, they concur to build several catacombs where, with their guild knowledge, they'll set up the most devious challenges. They put in it axe specialists with weaponbreak skill, enchant rooms with pulses of dispel magic and/or teleport to another room, make constructs to mimic the appearance and skills of the explorers, monsters attracted by noise and so on. They also agree that outside interference will not be allowed, so they cut out any form of outside-inside (and vice-versa) communication or travel. To be allowed in every contestant must get the approval of (be vouched by) 3 guildmasters, each with 24h duration and randomly answered (yes/no chance is 50/50), and pay a fee. I hope the PK concerns are solved this way. The entrance lies south of Arkham and is guarded by an acolyte of a god (perhaps Nepenthe given his background, or maybe Pico).
The thing:
With risks come rewards. After being blasted with fire, escaping being the dinner of a demon and being tricked into a trap by a halfling, our group of foo... aham, bold adventurers, find 2 gleaming energy swords. Both +4/+4 avg 27 damage noun eletricity and unbreakable, except that one of them is an auto-wielding, noremove and cursed sword that will damage the wielder instead of the opponent. Going out of this place using this sword is another risk they'll have to partake. A near hero (50th) warrior would have no trouble going there, grab both, backtrack to the exit and get the curse removed -> there's no risk, just reward. Also just walking in there gives xp, let's say 100xp per room, to account for every danger that is not in combat style. Again our near hero would get something for free, while our explorers would have to sweat to get anything (no room-xp if you die in there). That's why it's closed to outside range levels. Completing the entirety of the catacombs grants a title, while those levelling above the permitted will be removed by the acolyte.
Don't know if this is the best example, but hope it explains it well enough.

>>One downside that leaps to mind is that level 20 people could
>>run in to avoid level 21 enemies, etc. There's a lot of
>>scenarios like this, but the bottom line is that once PK
>range is involved, this gets messy.

If you have a safe haven you can run to and avoid a wide range of PK's we aren't going to do it.

The exceptions to this rule are immortal shrines for those who want it.

Your solution for the PK concerns don't address the problem at all.

Hey, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but you know all those seemingly useless gems lying around? You can sell them for lots of money. The trader in Galadon is the most convenient buyer, and has a looot of money.

Yes, it's fairly frustrating to get coins these days, but still, starving? I can see new players not being able to raise enough for training sessions, but I just don't see how you can not be able to buy food or practices. While I wouldn't mind having a few more extra coins, what I would really like to see is more useful weapons and armor for sale. All that anyone buys anymore are potions and scrolls, no one strolls down to Tir Tilith for that well crafted sword or helmet. With too much money, items like those could never be offered, but if it was a little more difficult to raise the money, maybe they could. I'm not saying they should put a weapon in galadon that does 31 average damage and raises your damage roll by 6. Just something worth buying. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone with a weapon offered only in a store, I'm sure some people bought weapons that someone else gave to Olin or whatever, but well, you know. Anywho, not sure if anyone else would care for the like, just thought I'd throw it out there.

1) There's a fair number of weapon/armor items in shops that are in pretty wide circulation. Primarily in the newer places, although Shokai and I sprinkled some into older shops a little while ago. I admit these are exceptions rather than rules.

2) I'm currently beating up area writers with free time to craft more useful objects for shops, now that money is under reasonable levels of control. Watch this space.

3) I occasionally swoop through major cities and lower the prices on objects that just aren't being bought by anyone, assuming it's because the object is overpriced, and not becuase people just haven't gotten into the habit.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Caveat: I may just be ignorant of what's already out there.

From a realism perspective, I could very much see there being higher quality armor/weapons available in major cities. Darsylon, Udgaard, Galadon, Hamsah and Seantryn all seem large and wealthy enough that they'd have pseudo-nice stuff for sale.

By pseudo-nice I mean average 18-20 weapons w/ physical attack and no hit/dam bonus (or a minimal one). Maybe iron in Udgaard, mithril in

For armor I could see selling stuff that's like a crappier version of midnight dragon hide. Except lighter, since it's not dragon hide. Decent AC but skimpy on the stat/hit/dam bonuses.

That's some of the stuff we're looking for. It's also a good place to put in relatively low-power but useful miscellaneous items. As a trivial example that's been in for a bit, a close-able belt/container with half-decent stats on it. It might not be as coveted as the wide bronze (*) belt in that level range, but the added protection against thieves is nice, and it's not so bad stats-wise.

We're less interested in dumping cheap iron/mithril weapons into the game however- neither elves nor wood-elves nor dark-elves are particularly overpowered in the lower ranks, and there's no reason to exaggerate the effect of their vulnerability by making sure everyone has five of those on hand.

(*) : Bastard child of wide copper, with the expected decline in covetousness.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I guess I haven't been to as many of the new areas as I should have. I'll definitely go take a peek. I'm thrilled to hear about this stuff, when I played my first character, I always felt bad that I only bought food and potions of return from shops, and of course flowers from the emerald forest *curse you flower book in the lyceum, you got me ambushed several times looking for just the right flower* If I might be a little nosey, are you making any non-useful, but rp purpose items like pipes.. actually, I think pipes do something for you, still, they make for good rp I think. With Meladori, she smoked once and didn't like it, but I always thought it looked cool when someone came into the inn and started smoking. I love that sort of thing about Carrion Fields, no other mud really has rp quite like it.

There's a Valg's Monthly Contest for you...

Come up with a statwise mostly useless but RP-enabling item (like the pipe) that isn't in the game, but should be.

How about selling limited weapon/armors in shops?
Unlimited stuff by their very nature can't be too useful, but if there's an occasional high avg weapon with decent hit/dam sold in a store even heroes might have a cause to visit once in a while.

CF is getting more and more time consuming. Its becoming a chore, a serious one. Most of the imms forgot what its like to be a newbie. I can remember very well. Whats all this with a zillion trillion newbie quests that give you money? When a guy cant find his way to his guild how the hell is he going to go to Udgaard or Seantryn?! Dont be morons on this.

This money issue is messed up. CF isnt a real economy, no matter how you try and do it, it never will be. Why dont you make Imperials donate cash instead of items? See how much fun that would be? Get them to spend 99% of their time killing money mobs. Why dont you nuke the dragons down to like 9k a piece, make it really worth their while, that would be a riot dont you think?

Dont put low level newbie areas way the hell out in the boonies, its stupid and its anti-newbie. I had a hard time finding damned camelot. Consider that these people have never mudded before.

Pk for money? Yet another reason for senseless, evil PK, which i agree with, totally. Noobies...to do that for money? Forget it. Get a grip on that.

Also, this area nuking with the money, stop doing that ####. Every time some imm puts money in his area, and it gets found out and people go there to get it all the time, it gets nuked. Why the hell was it there to being with?

Whats with thieves being able to steal back their money and me not be able to kill the shoppie and get it back? HOws that for economic simulation? Please nuke that too, its becoming popular....or has been for some time.

And Isildur, people who started playing the game are not like you. Some never will be. I know im not that knowledgeable about CF and never will become so. Why? TIme, its that simple. People cant play 10 hours a day and explore every crevice to find that miraculously hidden mob with 2k gold. Pk for money? I already went over that, be realistic, think out of your skill range. I killed a lot for money and people bitched about it.

The practice system is another thing. I understand for some skills but for most of them, people perfect them anyway, it just takes them 100 times longer. Newbies have no idea how to do this and once they figure it out and it becomes popular, it gets nuked. Why was Vimir nuked or the Blackclaw village? Those shoppies were not all that easy to kill and Vimir not easy by any means. Also dangerous, well traveled areas where you might get pkd, trying to get the money. A ranger ambushing you while vimir bashing you wasnt a pleasant prospect. Getting tripped to death by a thief while you were trying to kill a 2000 hp mob in Black Claw was not either. Why was the bandit camp nuked? Word got around about the money and BAM, come get some now, storm giants same thing. Its not an issue of balance anymore, its an issue of obsession.

CF is turning into a hardcore mad house of wierdos the way its going, to quote someone. A game meant for only the elite and to do something worth while you need to go around with elites or fairly knowledgeable players. There is no need for Valg or whoever, to go around nuking everything that seems remotely easy just so he can turn it into his graduate degree program, whatever that may be. No offense Valg but thats how youve come across from everything you posted. We've had this money discussion before, and you said you had no trouble getting money with your mortal. I hope you realize how encouraging that sounds given your position and knowledge. (sarcasm)

Isildur is the same, willing and able, like may other hardcore players to spend endless hours playing, and then goes through phases where he bitches at people for not finding out stuff on their own and not spending 60 hours a week doing so. I dont want to start beatin on you but dont tell newbies stuff thats oh so obvious to you and expect them to just go out and do that. So cut the crap.

Im not saying give everything easily away, im saying find a middle ground and this one isnt it. Its approaching the pathetic, annoying, time wasting level.

There is no need for Valg or whoever, to go around nuking everything that seems remotely easy just so he can turn it into his graduate degree program

It's cute when I get blamed for random stuff.

There was a discussion on TMS a while ago about dealing with chronic "grief players"- whiners, people who only play to make other players miserable, etc. One of the suggestions was to create a fictional immortal who would be credited with any change that was needed for balance, but wouldn't be popular because it made something harder. Carrion Fields lacks this technology,

Anyway, from here forward, I want to grant you your secret wish, Xaannix. You have my explicit permission to blame me for any and all decisions of the staff. There's a bug? My bad. Limits on something got adjusted? That was me, acting without any staff consensus or Implementor approval. Shokai didn't empower your character? I was whispering in his ear and bribing him with zebra cakes. Thieves aren't the end-all-be-all class that beats everything? Make sure you use the word "nerf" when you post about how I ruined it. Mud not rebooting enough? I schedule those just to mess with the item you wanted to request, and it feels goooood. Not enough money? I wrote all the guidelines and I personally moved all the excess copper to my secret lair under the Scion cabal, where I hoard it to buy Hamsah war barges.

There. Feels better already, doesn't it? Sure relieves all the confusion about those nasty decisions being made a group consensus from experienced staff members, right?

Oh, before I forget: Make sure you conveniently omit any change I've championed that makes an aspect of the game easier, like neo-outfit, the Academy changes, low-level quest additions, etc. It's no fun that way. Only home in on things I've done that took away some loophole. It makes you look like a crusader, and everyone loves a guy in shiny armor. They're soooooo dreamy.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Can I have one of your war barges?


And I blame you for the nerfing of little pets in my neighborhood.

Luis

Currents are a horribly stupid fun-impediment too.

.

nt

I think his main complaint is that the changes negatively affect newbies/people who don't have a lot of time to play and explore a lot more than it does people who spend a lot of time on CF.

It's kind of like the Republican party. Each change gradually widening the gap between the haves and the have nots. Loss of coin sources doesn't affect vet/elites half as much as it does newbies. It's annoying losing these coin spots, but I have a few coin sources left, I still don't have to think twice about quaffing potions. Low ranks are troublesome, but you can rank to 30 in like 2~3 days, and it only gets easier the higher you go. I'm not hurting that much. And I'm sure there are others who care even less.

All the things like neo-outfit, academy changes, low-lvl quest additions?
300 dollar bush-check. It's nice, but doesn't look that great when you consider you've just lost all your coin sources, nobody is telling you theirs in case it gets nerfed too, and you can't practice anymore(while some others still can. It's one thing if no one can, quite another if someone who does know more than you still can. And have a much easier time of it then you could.)

Trying to tell em you lowered the price of pies and can do a few more 1~2000 xp quests (6~7 mobs, 10 minutes at that rank, faster to just go and rank instead of doing the quest.) is like throwing em a quarter for a phone call after you beat em up and take their wallet.

Sure you can tell them they just suck and need to get better. It's their fault after all. How dare they suck at the game? If they don't like you changing stuff they do know, tough cookies, they should explore more and find those damn gold spots, find those damn practice spots, and stop whining cause they ####ing suck.
......It's gonna be mighty hard getting new players to join the CF community though. :)

Who has absolutely no problem making money at low ranks? You've got two choices.

1) You can go area to area, exploring for 'broken' coin amounts on mobs.

2) You can sell stuff to the various merchants and barter for items you want.

I go with 2, and while I don't have 100k gold in the bank and on me at all times, I never have problems healing myself, buying potions, or pretty much anything else regarding gold except maybe gambling.

Are you the only one? Nope, but you certainly fall under 'those who even have less problems'. I don't know how fast you collect coins, but I don't particularly have problems with gold either. While I'm fighting near hero I figure I avg about 20 gold spent every hour so I do spend a a good bit for someone who tries not to spend too much time going out of his way for getting coins. Trying to sell stuff definately falls under 'going out of my way' for me. I don't like carrying anything I don't need to carry, or going from town to town trying to find a shopkeep that'll take my stuff. Much faster to kill a 'broken' gold mob.

But people certainly are having problems, there's no point denying that. The common imm response seems to be 'it's cause you're too lazy to get off your ass and explore'.
It'd be one thing if difficulty in gold collection really added much to the game, but does it? When you're killing that newbie at lvl 20 out of moves, no potion, sitting on the mountainpath to Akan just waiting to die do you ever wonder if it's supposed to be this easy?

When I was a newbie and I asked for gold spots people readily gave me places and mob names, the inn, bandit camp, blackclaw... when I asked about practicing they gave me areas and mobs too. Would you tell anyone your gold spots now? Your practice spots? I wouldn't. I don't want to chance them getting rebalanced. Re-exploring looking for new spots takes time, time I don't have now.

The problem is that the changes affect some a lot more than others, mainly newer players and the 'casual' players who would like to be able to play at a competitive level without re-exploring(which is pretty time-consuming) with each change. They really felt the changes, those who have the time to re-explore or had prior knowledge were affected to a far lesser degree.

There definately was a shift in the relative level of power between players, the gap basically widened. Some think this is a good thing, and respond with 'well, if you don't like it, get better' which basically sums up your argument and voices the sentiment of most imms.

I'm just saying there are some who disagree.

The Immortal Staff is good with the current state of the ecomomy in Thera? Not that we screw ups can have the perspective you all do, but from down here, if the GWB was president of Thera (uh whatever happened to that Thera renaming game thing) I think he'd be sweating the upcoming elections.

>The Immortal Staff is good with the current state of the
>ecomomy in Thera?

No, we are not. Further more, there are folks looking at things to make it better. Of course...those ideas hinge on a coder doing the work, yet one more speedbump in the road to salvation.

Earlier tonight, Sevarecan came to me with a list of items. They were largely identical items that were sold in more than one place for vastly different prices. We checked our charts, adjusted a little for location, and the net result is that several of them came way down in price.

I've stated this elsewhere in different contexts, but:

We're getting more organized and standardizing things. An obvious goal for any economy project is that money has to be coveted/meaningful, but it also has to reflect the value of what it is exchanged for. Sometimes this makes things easier (price comes down), sometimes it makes it harder (price goes up). People bitch about the latter, and tend to conveniently forget about the former.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>what it is exchanged for. Sometimes this makes things easier
>(price comes down)

A perfect example of which is food - Olin's steaks are about half what they once were, and pies are about 1/10th. Although, you might want to check into the lumberyard I think blood beasts and brownies are about the same price as before the economy project started, but I have a horrible memory for such things and could easily be wrong.

If you're actually adjusting things, want my list of overpowered Empire donation items?

Sure. We actually keep track of this but I wouldn't mind seeing
what *you* consider overvalued. :P Drop me the list and I'll see
if anything brings up a red flag.

( Besides, if people don't like any changes, we just blame Valg. }( )

Sevarecan
sevarecan@carrionfields.com

Sent. Let me know if my info actually precipitates any changes. I wouldn't want Valguarnera to hog all the scorn.

My mailbox doesn't show anything from you.

There might be a size limit so you might try busting it
down into small pieces if the list is huge. If you to
send a test message, you can try that too.

sevarecan@carrionfields.com

>We're getting more organized and standardizing things. An
>obvious goal for any economy project is that money has to be
>coveted/meaningful, but it also has to reflect the value of
>what it is exchanged for. Sometimes this makes things easier
>(price comes down), sometimes it makes it harder (price goes
>up). People bitch about the latter, and tend to conveniently
>forget about the former.

What about the concept of supply and demand? Given, shoppies are only going to accept one or two or three types of items, but what if a weaponsmith shoppie's just getting swords, for instance, and can't move 'em because there's a glut in supply? If merchants actually did some degree of business outside the game's mechanics of PCs buying and selling stuff, perhaps this would make it even easier to generate the concept of a "real-time" economy regardless of whether the PCs are purchasing from that shoppie or not.

An example, then:

Thorne's selling tons and tons of swords to the jaettes because he's not making too many of his own. Thus, he's requiring swords to buy. However, Thorne is a master axesmith, and therefore makes a whole lot of axes. Business hasn't been good lately for the axes so he's not buying any other types of axes.

I'm sure variations could arise from this, but that's the basic idea.

One of my 'on patrol' functions often looks like the following:

1) Go to a shop and check the items. Figure out how many copies of those objects exist. If the answer is close to 1 (the one copy the shopkeeper is holding), lower the price.

2) If the object is very popular, and reasonable alternatives exist, raise the price. For example, items in Galadon generally cost a little more than comparable items in smaller cities. They still outsell them, so that's OK, and a roughly accurate reflection of demand.

Note to newbies: On your things to do list, "Learn the cities that aren't Galadon" should be high.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

What I was saying, though, was that a cool idea might be to code it so that certain shoppies want certain TYPES of weapons more than others. To rehash the Thorne example, suppose the army's running out of hammers, and he wants more. If someone then sells something to Thorne, he might say something along the lines of that he wants hammers. Or whips. Whatever.

Allow items to move fast in-game. They shouldn't be dependent on PCs to move, because more "people" live in the towns than just the PCs, apparently. Otherwise, you've just got a bunch of non-interactive mobiles. This allows you to give the shopkeepers money every so often an item might move. Allow it to be checked as a percentage every hour or so that the shop is open that an item might move. Obviously some stores (the major cities) are going to move stuff quicker than the smaller cities, so up the probability percentage. This would make for a faster economy, and wouldn't make the economy necessarily grind to a halt when people don't want to buy useless item X that the shoppie's just bought.

It might be nice if there was some sort of dynamic switching system, so that an imm could flip a toggle and what each store is demanding most could change. So that if you didn't happen to be around Udgaard when they are after hammers, you won't get a good price for them any more, and you might have to provide axes instead.

>It might be nice if there was some sort of dynamic switching
>system, so that an imm could flip a toggle and what each store
>is demanding most could change. So that if you didn't happen
>to be around Udgaard when they are after hammers, you won't
>get a good price for them any more, and you might have to
>provide axes instead.

I was thinking this as well, but even this should be a random thing. I don't think it should be dependent on an immortal to shift this, because who can really predict which way the economy will go? We, as PCs, don't know the motivations of the Sultan's soldiers, or the Jaettes, or the Ruined City garrison.

Another example we could look at would be food. Consider the notion that a certain fruit might only be grown in the wilds of the Tahril Mountains. Now, obviously a food vendor might look at this and need it. I don't think that anyone's really tried to sell food to a food vendor in a great quantity, but certainly, if someone were to spend time gathering, say, pumpkin seeds and selling them in Udgaard, they should get a good deal on it. In this light, I'd suggest for food vendors that they have a supply level. You could keep selling food items to that food vendor until you reach that supply level, which again would be determined randomly based on the item type.

Although, this might require a lot more coding since there's got to be hundreds of different food items in Thera, it'd be a great idea. PC merchants would be truly viable as opposed to being able to sell only a few items in a given city at one time. You could even buy items from one merchant and sell them to the other at a higher price this way more realistically.

Oh god, pretty son we will have to bitch about how having perfected 'grub gathering' is over powered, and how much of a bitch it is to spam prac 'fishing'.


We allready have to gather preps and cash. Why turn cf into a resource gathering bonanza?

>Oh god, pretty son we will have to bitch about how having
>perfected 'grub gathering' is over powered, and how much of a
>bitch it is to spam prac 'fishing'.
>
Uh. I hadn't mentioned that. I just mentioned that it might be nice to make trading viable. Skills weren't in my range of thinking, really, just trading.

>We allready have to gather preps and cash. Why turn cf into a
>resource gathering bonanza?

Because the idea of merchants is a good one. Why not make the food you gather from somewhere else be useful in some other way rather than just using it to satisfy the hunger pangs that come up from time to time?

Dynamic economies aren't new to MUDs, and everything posted in
this sub-thread is something that has been thought about already.
Some of the changes may happen, someday, if there is enough time
and interest with the coders, and we feel the payoff is worth
bumping it up the list in front of other things.

In my opinion, coding up dynamic trading ranges for berry pies
probably isn't screaming up the to-do list, but if it comes down
to that or fixing dual wield, you never know. :)

What do you think of allowing shoppies to keep their coins through reboots/crashes?

That would facilitate the sale of items to shoppies. Its not so challenging to find a shoppie whos willing to buy items, but it can be to find one whos got the funds to do it.

What you're suggesting would have the exact opposite effect of what you want.

Right now, shoppies say, "Sure I'd like to buy that, and its worth x amount of coins, but I don't enough coins to buy it." I'm saying let them keep the coins they get from selling their normal goods through crashes and reboots so they're more likely to build up enough to buy things pcs try to sell them. Maybe there's some funky economist angle you're looking at this from that I'm not seeing, but I can't see how a shoppie keeping the money they earn through sales is going to result in less money for them to buy pc offerings.

He's right.

Currently, many shopkeepers buy a lot more than they sell. If that information is saved across reboots, they'll have very little currency, and people will be tricked into reading the barter helpfile.

Some shopkeepers do sell a lot of goods. However, those are most often the shopkeepers who are stolen from as well. I don't think your change is going to impact that much.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

if you want to make this economy work right, you have to give shoppies stuff that people will actually buy. Nobody really buys anything from a store, i don't, and pk for gear since my chars dont go around with huge groups for gear collection. I never have and never will buy anything from a store, except for preps/potions. I rarely found anything worth buying. Usually its just a waste of money, like im going to pay 60k for that haste prep with only 1 use, gimme a break.

I know this was covered in a topic above but i wont split them.
Shoppies have to buy some and sell some. Usually they have to sell more than they buy, at least money wise. Otherwise this economic fairy tale wont work. Why not make some items limited at shoppies? They only have so many of them. About the iron and mithril weapons...um well you can get one pretty easily anyway, shoppies shouldn't be your main concern. A 1 hit 1 dam or even 2/2 on weapons sold at stores might not be too much as long as the avg is not over 21. You can make em limited, the best ones out there, but have the shoppie refresh his inventory to see if anything has been saced/purged at area repop and not have the lowbies/newbies wait till next crash reboot every single time...this might be a little much.

About the ranking via quests, there was a post above about this. I just wasted 45 minutes trying to do this 'newbie' quest, mainly because of moves and stupid little creatures attacking me. Why did i do that? I've never done it before and wanted to see if it was anything worth doing. Its not worth the time. For 3000k experience!?? I can get that in 15 mintues at rank 7, gold with that and skill improvements. So why in the hell would i do that quest? Will i ever do it again? No.

Make some of those lowbie quests give you more exp, about 4-8k should do it. I could just kill 30 *mob* in 10 minutes. Then again one could be a mage...:)

>I never have and never will buy anything from a store, except
>for preps/potions. I rarely found anything worth buying.

"except for..." That's the main thing most people buy. You may be overlooking a few things.

Food. Possibly a drink container if you're regearing. Sack. Haste/stoneskin. Return/teleport potions/scrolls. Identify scrolls. Water breathing potion/staves. Pass door. Detect invis. Invis. Enlarge/reduce. Flight. A boat if you're regearing. Cure disease/poison. Resist heat/cold/mental. Faerie fog. Blind scrolls.

>Usually its just a waste of money, like im going to pay 60k
>for that haste prep with only 1 use, gimme a break.

Depends on how tough other haste preps are to get and how tough it is for you to gather 60k. If 60 gold is nothing to you, it could be quicker than getting that same prep off a mob.

nt

For example as a lightwalker that wouldn't kill nobles for garnet rings, I preferred buying a couple of rings for very little copper that were +hit, +dam, -spell saves than go get an amethyst ring.

There actually is some pretty decent gear out there to be purchased

my personal preference is PK. I dont need to buy gear. With exploration tho, i dont have time and dont play that much. Pk is easy, cheap and efficient when it comes to gear :) If i have to go to the end of the world to buy a ring or belt when i could just kill someone instead, no thanks.

Hard to pk someone when you're naked.

I'm guessing gear sold in shops will be used primarily to expedite regearing.

Can buy gear though

nt

I've never liked that thieves can steal gold from shopkeepers, especially the super rich ones, with little or no risk. Particularly in light of the recent changes where thieves can steal money from pc's, I'd say let a thief run the risk of stealing from a pc if he wants to get money the easy way.

If thieves didn't steal from shopkeepers, they'd have the gold to do business with all characters, making the economy better I think. And before someone pops up with redistribution of wealth by thieves stealing from the shopkeepers, there would still be that redistribution because thieves would now have to run the risk like everyone else and try to get the money from other pcs.

Now, shopkeepers that can be killed, like the ones in Akan, should remain unchanged and thieves should be able to steal from them. But shopkeepers like those in galadon or most other cities where they are not going to be killed, should be changed to make it impossible for thieves to steal from them. Let a thief be a thief from a pc, and take the chance of missing and dying. They already get pretty rich by stealing items from pcs, they don't need easy gold from shopkeepers, too. The game is about risk and pc vs. pc play. I'd do this to enhance that.

Make it so that stealing from a shopkeeper in a protected an unlawful act and if they are caught they must deal with the tribunals.

even though i am a fan of thieves, they should not be able to steal from the super rich shopkeepers without significant risk. I like the changes to the wizard, pretty much guaranteeing a mob death to the thief.

Would it be cool if I blamed you for my cellular phone having problems too? Would be cool to explain it away on the bastard lich messing with my reception.

I didn't blame anyone but you jumped on me like a fly on #### when I said something.

I tried stretching your permission to include
all aspects of my life. My girlfriend however
didn't buy it. so help me out here.. just take the
fall for me man.. it was your fault the car broke
down right?.... right???
gonna run out to buy zebra cakes package them up
for mailing and roll up a paladin... :)
pray Zebra cakes for empowerment. gimme an address
I send em you empower me when they get there.

nt

"It's cute when I get blamed for random stuff."

hey man you nuked travelling boots, you will have to live the rest of your life with over wrath hanging over your shoulders.

I was worried that I was kidding. All humor is truth, though.

P.S. Sure it was me?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

that was fun, lasted a while and made quite a storm. Yeah I know Valg, youre cool, chill. Heh. I omitted the stuff you mentioned on purpose. Just wanted to see everyone's reaction and i gotta say there was some.

Cheers }(

If anything this levels the playing field.
When I started playing, before the changes, I couldn't even find money
to buy food, I'd thougth it would impossible to sustain all those recall potions
I'd see in logs. Its the same way now.

The impact of the changes is felt especially by veterans, used to their old ways, not interested in reexploring all those areas again, but this is actually a good change for newbies.

The problem now is newbies arrive here and see veterans talk about how hard is to get money now and they think its because of that they can't find anything, instead of trying to use their own means of obtaining what they want.

Its not that hard to get money if you explore a little. Especially because with that exploration also cames free food, free detect invis, free cure poison, free cure plaque, free fly, free refresh, free haste, free teleport, free protection, free cancellation and
many others, all attainable at low levels. And if you find anything you have no use for, you can always BARTER it for something you like at your local shopkeeper.

Instead of dying to PK isn't it better to die to mobs in some secluded place and keep all your clothes?
So exploring doesn't do any harm to newbies. They can only get better with it.

For level 2 to 10 you can always enjoy the show of some PKs in any town near you, to learn some new tricks, with the added bonus of a little copper looting for you at the end.

That only thing i think should be changed a little is to diminish the number of mobs with
zero coins in them. It doesn't need to be much, but it makes them feel a little more real.

And just so you know the maximum time I played would be around 10 hours a week.
So time doesn't have anything to do with exploring.


Explorer

CF is getting more and more time consuming.

Carrion Fields is as time consuming as you want it to be. Say you could get 101% in dodge if you spammed for 20 hours. Is that an advantage? Yes. Are you forced to spend those twenty hours? No. You just live without the extra percentage point.


Whats all this with a zillion trillion newbie quests that give you money?

I hear you, man. They don't pay enough to be worth it. So I just don't do them. What's the problem?


When a guy cant find his way to his guild how the hell is he going to go to Udgaard or Seantryn?!

I think that's sort of the point: forcing people to learn where those places are. They could always ask someone in game; that's how I learned about the Udgaard shortcut.


CF isnt a real economy, no matter how you try and do it, it never will be.

Depending on how one defines an economy, it actually kind of is. Each player/character has his own internal conversion rate between money and time, determined by character strength and player knowledge. The fact that gathering money is considered time-consuming and unenjoyable is what endows it with value. If it grew on trees there sure as hell wouldn't be an economy. (The question you should be asking is whether having a real economy actually adds anything to players' enjoyment of the game.)


Why dont you make Imperials donate cash instead of items?

This isn't a bad idea. Cash-only donations might help to fix an item's value at the "fair market rate" instead of the built-in number. Promotion threshholds would definitely have to be adjusted. In my experience it seems like most Imperials get their promotions using items with pathologically high value. If you know a good source of donatable items then you've got it made. If not, then you have a long, long road ahead of you. Sort of an annoying system, but I was lucky enough to stumble across a good source.


Dont put low level newbie areas way the hell out in the boonies...

Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to go rank in the past? Goodies have it a little rough, but not so bad. For neutrals and evils it's just...so...freaking...easy.


Why the hell was it there to being with?

Valid question. Presumably these things are reviewed when new areas are being considered for addition. Inevitably some "unbalanced" money source will slip through the cracks. As soon as they get noticed they get fixed. These things only get noticed when people actually use them.


People cant play 10 hours a day and explore every crevice to find that miraculously hidden mob with 2k gold.

You really think I do that?


The practice system is another thing. I understand for some skills but for most of them, people perfect them anyway, it just takes them 100 times longer.

So what's your solution, give everyone straight 100s? Or make it so easy to practice that they might as well have been given 100s?


Isildur is the same, willing and able, like may other hardcore players to spend endless hours playing, and then goes through phases where he bitches at people for not finding out stuff on their own and not spending 60 hours a week doing so.

Huh? I fully admit that more playing time gives one a broader range of experience to draw upon. Do I think people should play all the time in order to gain knowledge as quickly as possible? No way. Nor do I think I come down too hard on newbies for being ignorant. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. There is, however, something wrong with being intellectually lazy about how one approaches a given task (i.e. gathering money).

LIST and LOCATE are overpowered.

Someone said that those area's deserved to get tweaked because they were broken. (had too much money). Well, I just found an area that has MORE money then those area's ever did. Does that mean it is broken too?

The point is that there is no reason behind which area's have money and which don't. People always say, "well, explore and find another spot".. Wait a second, if another spot has money isn't that deserving of a tweak too?

Now that this char knows a new spot, I have a really unfair advantage over everyone else that doesn't. I feel guilty about it. Maybe I shouldn't though... Because knowing the "spot" for something when someone else doesn't seems to be the theme of this game.

Oh ya, and why do people call "knowing the spot" skill?

"yea, that guy was skilled because he used strategy"
(when in fact all said guy did was use preps)

...

nt

>Does that mean it is broken too?

There's variability in the guidelines, so one area/mob having
more or fewer coins than another doesn't necessarily mean that
there is a bug. If what you found seems inappropriately different,
go ahead and report it with the typo command or an e-mail to
immortal@carrionfields.com.

>I feel guilty about it. Maybe I shouldn't though...

You might be getting a little wound up over nothing, but if you
have some specific concerns, report them and we can take a look.
We'll either make an adjustment or let you know it is ok, but
either way you won't have to stress about it anymore.

Have fun exploring. It sounds like you are finally learning new
things to help yourself out!

Everytime an area is tweaked or modified on carrionfields it is ALWAYS to tone the area down.

No. Some changes make areas easier (*). Some changes make areas harder. People just bitch a lot about one, and forget about the other.

(*): Examples: Huge Academy expansion, vast reduction in the frequency of aggressive NPCs accessing common areas, more newbie-friendly areas added near hometowns that don't have them, more quests available in the 1-20 ranks, price reductions on commonly purchased items with poor alternatives, more abilities for lowbie shifters and transmuters, experience and movement bonuses for exploration, capped XP-holes for dying, enhanced Outfit utility, etc.

Also, was any leveling area put in to compensate for the loss of the white tower?

The number of newly added areas always vastly exceeds the number of areas removed. The more common complaint we get is that we add too many new areas, and as Thera gets bigger it gets harder to locate enemies. (We've been merging smaller areas into larger ones to mitigate this issue without impacting our desire to add new content. 2003 saw a net reduction in total areas, though rooms expanded considerably.)

As an Area Guy, I made it a point with a semi-recent mortal to rank in newly added places, including the level range you're talking about. There was no problem- in many ways it was easier because "sheep" players who follow herds never found me.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>
>As an Area Guy, I made it a point with a semi-recent mortal to
>rank in newly added places, including the level range you're
>talking about. There was no problem- in many ways it was
>easier because "sheep" players who follow herds never found
>me.
>

I'm not sure what this proves. The guy who designs the game can level easier in the new area's that he just approved and linked.

:P

How Josiah-esque of you to post that.

I'm not sure what this proves. The guy who designs the game can level easier in the new area's that he just approved and linked.


My mortals don't have any magic password that makes it possible for them to rank in these places. They're on the areas list, they're on the maps, etc. So, you have two possibilities:

1) I help put in areas and never test them.
2) I help put in areas and the next time I have someone in the level range, I test them personally to make sure they do what they are supposed to do.

Which of these do you prefer? Or do you just like trolling?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I've never had any problems getting enough money to survive, and generally think people who complain about money are just too lazy to go out and look for some. No complaints here about any of it.

I disagree. Money should be hard to get, just like real life. Bugged areas shouldn't be your main source of income.

Regarding the White Tower, I wouldn't say any of the recent
areas added (see 'help area recent') fill that niche, but areas
are continually added so keep an ear out. It is unlikely that
the Ruined City will stay ruined forever, but I wouldn't expect*
any reconstruction there to necessarily fill that niche either.

By the way, your note is like reading a rant from November 2001
when the changes you're mentioning were still fresh (mostly).
You should try re-learning the game as it is now in 2004. We're
not going to dump coins into your old ranking areas because you
are unwilling to explore. No, sir! About the note you sent to
the Imms, you obviously realize you should have been using the
bank and planning ahead, the thing is to just do it next time.
I realize that can be upsetting, but it sounds like you've been
gone a while and gotten a little rusty. You need to realize you
are kind of a newbie all over again. :)

I don't know what happened with those newbies you were with,
but genuine newbies who take 6 hours (no kidding) to get through
the Academy seem to kick butt over your group. Make sure your
group plans ahead and has supplies before they go out for an
adventure. If you're poor and fighting (example) foresty mobs
with no coins, you're going to stay poor! Plan for it!
Also, re-read 'help tips' if it has been a while.

Good luck!
Sevarecan


* I honestly have no idea about that. :P

>1. You can't kill or do anything interesting.

You can kill other players. You can try to get (modest) gear off mobs. You can practice up your skills. You can sit in the Inn and RP if that's your thing. You can rank, though that's not the most interesting thing in the world.

>2. You can't explore because your MV regen rates suck.

Yes and no. Exploring at low ranks isn't very productive and movement regen does sort of suck. Having lots of cash to refresh movement every time you pass through a town helps alot. "heal refresh" is what I would miss most if I were suddenly poor.

>3. If you explore at this point you will DIE.

Then don't explore at that point. Bite the bullet and rank up, then explore to your heart's delight.

>4. You can't get enough money to survive (feed yourself /
>train / practice / heal plague, poison / buy a potion?

I had this problem too after my lowbie money source was fixed, but I eventually found another. I'm sure given time you can too. Here's my tip. Lowbies can't kill powerful mobs. Mobs that aren't powerful don't have much cash. Ergo, to get cash as a lowbie you should be doing something other than killing mobs.

>4a. I guess there's money out there if you know it. But
>newbies ain't gonna find it (see 1. and 2. and 3.)

Let me propose, for the sake of argument, that the staff doesn't want all low-ranking players to be poor as dirt. This implies there are ways low-ranking characters can get cash without dying. Now, many areas are guaranteed death for such characters. So it stands to reason that the cash intended for them is not going to be found in those areas. So then, it doesn't seem wise to explore such areas with your low-ranking character. Instead consider exploring somewhere that won't get you killed.

>5. Pk sucks at this range for a lot of classes. Too gear
>dependant.

So don't PK if you're playing one of those classes. Instead work on skills or rank. Honestly, if you're any remotely tanky or damagey class then low-level ranking shouldn't be a big deal.

>If CF immortals want to start toning area's down and balancing
>the CF economy they need to stop hitting pre 20's. It seems
>that pre-20 money sources are ALWAYS the ones on the cutting
>block.

Let me just say that lots of money sources have been nerfed since the economy project started and a great many of them were never used by low-ranking characters.

>By chance I encounted an area where the mobs carry decent
>silver. I expect this area to be next, because lowbies aren't
>supposed to have MONEY!

Friendly advice: don't tell anyone about it and it's alot less likely to be changed.

>Also, was any leveling area put in to compensate for the loss
>of the white tower? It ain't half as easy to level out of the
>bitch ranks as it used to be as an evil char.

It's about as easy as it always was. The white tower was a death trap anyway.

>PS: screwing up emerald forest sucked too. Sucks for evils
>leveling, sucks for rangers who used this area to pk.

There are still areas for rangers to PK in at every range. If anything, removing Emerald just means there are fewer places they need to look.

Too many Changes that are Aimed at lowbies that are making the learning curve steeper.

But I don't really see a problem with any of the changes that have been made recently. And a few of them were way past due, to be honest. Newbies have a big challenge to learn the game and the bigger it gets the more challenging it will become. Newbies with a thirst for a challenge will excel, given time.

as Valg mentioned above it is getting increasingly difficult to locate enemies and pk as more areas are added. In response to that they merged areas so it's not so easy to hide. The problem I see is the very steep learning curve for newbies. We want new players (decent players...not players who make their name SuperShark when they roll their water shifter) When I first started playing I found CF to be the most difficult game I'd ever played, and the RP requirement almost turned me off. But something about it, made me stay...still not sure what ;)

But if we keep making it harder and harder for lowbies (the ranks most new players end up staying while they explore and try to learn with) people will get turned off and quit. When some new player rolls his Drow AP/Necro and finds no one wants to help him, and keeps running out of food, only to run out of mvs starving on eastern to be pked and looted, he's not likely to stay.

Just my $.02

Increase money pops on mobs in leveling areas.

Give 40 or 50 copper to:
elves in vale
Give 50 to 60 copper to:
orphans and halflings and mobs in Akan.

There's no reason that lumberyard mobs should have more money than these other places. To train a stat, I usually go through and kill 30 lumberyard mobs :P. Remember, most mob booty is divided by 3.

>Increase money pops on mobs in leveling areas.

To be honest, this sounds like a reasonable change. It's not like characters are going to get rich killing umpteen mobs that have 50 copper each. At least, not any faster than they already can via other methods.

>To train a stat, I usually go through and kill 30 lumberyard
>mobs :P. Remember, most mob booty is divided by 3.

Dude. You really need to figure out a new way to get cash.

I will include one tip: Try your darndest to hero, or at least rank to +40 with a character that would make a decent explorer. Explore your ass off and learn as much as you can. I found that I could usually learn things with my high level chars (easy ways to get gold,places you can find gear/magical items that are useful) that were useful and even helped with low level chars in the future.
On that note, this game is meant to be a challenge. A big challenge. Often times, big challenges are frustrating to get past. But the feeling you get if you push through the frustration and succeed is something worth it, in my opinion.
Obaznuk

If the general wisdom now is that newbies should be trying to hero, I think that's a bad thing. I learnt a ton with my first few characters at low ranks, while at hero ranks things would have been complex and overwhelming for me at that stage. And at that time, the class skills and such weren't nearly as varied as they are now. I've always thought hero was the level best for players who have a fair idea of what they're doing, and have already learnt a decent amount. In the lower ranks, one has to deal with plenty of newbies, but at hero one should be able to count on people knowing the difference between fireball and nova.

If even newbies really should try to rank and get to hero, what's the point of lower ranks?

I am just saying that the first time I really had a breakthrough and learned a lot was when I played my first hero rank character. There are just some things you aren't going to have an opportunity to learn at the low ranks. Go to the battlefields and look at the countless number of instances where people say 'so and so was my first hero ever' and 'I learned a LOT with this guy!'. I didn't mean everyone should try to power rank through the low ranks right from the start. I just meant that having at least one high level char under your belt would really help your perspective.

Every one of my chars has taught me alot, starting with my first one which taught me not to #### around with or disrespect the imms without throroughly researched cause, to my most recent chars which have taught me many new areas, and cabal powers I never knew. Though with every char, the knowlege you gain seems to decrease...but I suppose that means I'm getting better.

I wouldn't recommend newbies ranking to hero unless they really know their RP, and know alot of the powers out there that will be used against them. If not they will find either very boring, or deathful lives. With hero cabal wars no one wants to deal with you unless you are part of a raid (assuming the newb is uncaballed because his RP wasn't up to snuff with the cabals philosophies/tasks required for induction) and without proper knowlege of the various races/clases/cabal powers and all the tiny differences that are part of these 3 very broad categories, they are sure to die to a skilled hero enemy.

And dying alot will either push someone to work harder and persevere like you hope Obaznuk, or they will toss in their towel and quit like I hope that they don't. Like the poster before me said, lowbie ranks are made for newbie learning...rank up higher when you feel more comfortable at lower ranks. But with the recent changes I can understand some of the negative sentiment to how lowbie ranks are being treated.

What I'm saying is, I learned alot with most of my characters, especially the early ones. I started playing CF early in the third age, slightly before warriors got weapon specs. I learned a bunch with my first character into pk range, a human warrior who I gave up on for the obvious reason that I kept on getting killed. I learned alot with my first character above rank 20, a gnome invoker who condied at rank 25, and only lived that long because a nice female cloud warrior arbiter (who's name escapes me, but who some might remember for being one of the people to cause the toning down of distance, someone help me out here?) kept on reequipping me. I learned alot with my first character above rank 30, an elf ranger who failed miserably in trying to get into Knights. And I learned alot with my first hero, a gnome thief who was lucky enough to get dragged along on a hell trip where Scarabaeus killed us all.

I also learned alot with my second hero, my first caballed character, my first leader, my first tattooed character, and plenty of others over the years. I still learn from most of my characters, even if my last character (Goronik) didn't seem to impress many people. I know you and other Imms who met her didn't care to respond to her farewell, and I know I personally felt she wasn't up to my personal standards of a good character. But even so, I still learned a bunch from playing her.

What I'm saying is, every character should be a learning experience, especially the early ones. Having a high level char under your belt gives you a greater perspective, and so do lots of other achievements you can make in game. That doesn't make the perspectives of newer players who haven't made hero irrelevant. Hopefully, we can all learn and get to be better cfers with each character we play.

I loved Goronik. I must have missed her farewell, she was one of my favorite foes. One of those people you could count on for a fight or an interesting conversation.

Oh, well, thank you much then. I really liked Obaznuk too, he was interesting and could be counted on, the same way. And you taught me a quick lesson one of the first times we fought, about the pain of disembowel. *chuckle*

Now if I could just find out what Scar thought of her. Believe me, this isn't as clear as it might seem to an outsider.

I learned alot with my first character above rank 20, a gnome invoker who condied at rank 25, and only lived that long because a nice female cloud warrior arbiter (who's name escapes me, but who some might remember for being one of the people to cause the toning down of distance, someone help me out here?)

Was it Sonia?

.

I sympathize with alot said here...but disagree with a bit too...

>I don't want to spend my time as a low level.

so rank? depending on the class I usually solo rank to 20-25 anyway.

>I want to level out of that horrible range because:
1. You can't kill or do anything interesting.

yeah you can...maybe not interesting but you can kill things. Just not big things with Uber gear

>2. You can't explore because your MV regen rates suck.

I agree..mvs really suck. I would recommend trying to explore areas you know well from past higher level chars so when you log off you get a nice MV bonus

>3. If you explore at this point you will DIE.

So don't explore, rank up and do it later. Then reap the awards of that newfound knowlege on your next char

>4. You can't get enough money to survive (feed yourself / train /
practice / heal plague, poison / buy a potion?

I call ####. Perhaps I agree with the sentiment of not being able to stock on potions, and have enough to heal up in the midst of fighting, but not enough to survive? ie: get food? Go to any major town and kill some citizens, they almost all carry some silver.

>4a. I guess there's money out there if you know it. But newbies ain't gonna find it (see 1. and 2. and 3.)

They will....in time. Though yes there is quite a bit less cash flow around than there used to be.

>5. Pk sucks at this range for a lot of classes. Too gear dependant.

Or gang dependant. and Everyones got crappy HP, so do a little bit of damage and your set with new gear.

Well I agree that the frustration factor has certainly gone up. Not just for the guys who don't know how get gold, but even for people who do.
I can't count the number of times I sat around waiting for someone to come to a spot where the ranking group was supposed to gather only to have them tell me what seems like ages later they can't come because they took 20 minutes cause they don't have coins to refresh and have to sleep or got blocked by centurions, or don't have a boat and have to get the copper first to buy the boat... These arn't even total newbies, some of them gave me the impression that they've been here longer than me.

I didn't start that long ago but it wasn't that bad when I started. I keep getting the feeling the imms are upping the ante with each progressive change, and while it might be nice to make stuff challenging for everyone involved, there's a fine line between making things difficult for the sake of keeping it interesting and just screwing newbies plain and simple.

Practicing is a good example as well. If you know when and where to do it you can still get skills/spells mastered in a relatively short period of time, but if you don't, you can't practice unless your a masochistic SOB. Where as before you had a choice whether you were a newbie or not, now you only have a choice if you know where to practice and when to do it. Since the changes as opposed to getting everything to the 100s I started getting a few key things into the 90s and started ranking again, after heroing I often realized I gained maybe 2~3% on a few skills that I'd use occasionally but wanted at 100%.

Sure, you can use them while you're ranking if you really want em badly. But not if you're a newbie. You can get away with tripping/bashing while you're ranking if you're tanking and doing consistent demolishes at 30, and it's quite obvious you're worth more than the other two groupmates combined. Good luck trying that if you're a newbie and are doing maims and devastates. If you suck already to begin with nobody's going to be patient enough to watch you work on your skills while ranking.

It's true you don't need to practice. But like the imms repeatedly state, if you're 'skilled' you don't need to practice to do well. This comes with time, lots of time, in depth knowledge of game mechanics, a calm mind that can observe situations and assess them quickly etc etc. These are not qualities the average newbie possesses. As for me, I'm not that good yet, I still like my disarms to work the first time I try them as opposed to the 4th time. I like being able to rely on my trip/bashes too.

So, while it's true that you don't need to practice, in 'practice' newbies are getting their asses kicked left and right and dropping corpses all over the place dying to 'skilled' players who may not have practiced, or might have practiced on top of everything else they have going for them for an added edge. And because of the increased difficulty of obtaining coins, they can't even quaff a return to save their life.

I've learned enough(thankfully) to roll with the recent changes, but hey, if I started playing CF a month ago as opposed to a year ago I'd probably have quit within the first two weeks.