CF is a free game. Yes, I have a free game too, but we are earning enough money to advert outself. Classic free-2-pay model.

I suggest to consider that here, in CF, and I will explain why.

First, it will give CF another 1-2k$ monthly, with time - up to 10-20k$ monthly, maybe more. It will be enough for a good advert and beating other MUDs.

What will do premium accounts?

First of all, rating. For many players rating is important, and many would like to see themself on top. All characters that you are playing will give you scores (and it can't be affected from outside - for example, immexp will not affect it). Imm profiles won't participate in rating, too.

Second,only players with premium accounts will be able to play certain races or classes. For example, without premium you can play humans only (harsh) or humans, gnomes and svirfs. You want to become evil? Become premium! I expect howling from other players here. But guys, if you love this game, consider it donations.

Third, access to rare races. When you gain enough points on your premium account, you will be able to play mino. Ten times more - you will be able to play a draconian, for example.

Quest forms for mages - same way (and it will be way more fair than it is now, by my opinion, when some favorite players are getting everything and rest - never). Such things must be not imm-dependant, but effort- and time-investement dependant.

There may be a lot more of micro-rewards for premium account, which I didn't mention, and even much more you can imagine yourself.

Will players pay for that? Surely. Will I pay for that? Of course.

What is a reasonable price for premium account? Usually it's 10/15$ monthly. It's not a lot, but at the same time it will help CF greately.

I wouldn't play if people could get an advantage by spending money, and I say that as someone who could take complete advantage of it.

I wouldn't want you to come back later and think that only a couple IMPs thought this was a terrible idea as written.

It's an arms-race model. Between any two players of comparable skill, the advantage will go to the guy with the quest form(s) he got by opening his wallet. The present system rewards roleplay, not personal wealth.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

"The present system rewards roleplay, not personal wealth"

I would argue the first half of that statement is not overly accurate. The present system rewards creative writing and to a lesser extent roleplay.

I mean the most common small rewards are role XP. the most common big rewards are role contest prizes... neither of which have anything to do with role play in the game.

That means that foreign people, like myself, who are limited by language barrier, have no chance to get a quest form. It's unfair already, because my skill in pk/rp isn't worse, but there are limits that I (and many other not not native english people) can't get past.

on the forums so I can post anonymously! I hate not being able to say "good job" to a good foe because I don't want to create a wasted/useless account.

nt

In-game benefits wasn't a great part to add to this idea.

But, the other stuff, I'd pay for it. Something like maybe tracking my characters, I don't know, obviously needs fleshing out a bit more.

Ultimately though, the biggest problem with this is the cynicism of the pbase for money that goes into CF. I can just see the posts now that questions IMM integrity. You already see those posts right now, so this would just add one more bullet to the lame gun.

And right now, if I were an IMM, I can handle the criticism. But if the pbase starts accusing them of tampering with money or not using money right, that's going to cause problems at the Staff level too.

I think this is just a tough idea to work out and at a very, very bad time where IMM vs. player relations seem worse than usual.

Just imho, it would be perfect to add premium and get rid of the whiny bitches.

As a co-founder of a game company, I know both sides - and a player (here) and a game administrator. There are always whining player, who will be whine and blame the admin stuff despite anything, no matter what you do. But most funny, that they will keep playing and keep paying.

I am completely on the imms side in this holy war, just don't understand why don't they block those drama queens. Ten players is not pbase - just those people are usually most active players.

Cf is what it is....cf. For all the bitching and moaning, most of us like the mud how it is for the most part.

Pay for benifets will NEVER happen.

They added the PBF some time ago for people that wish to see their characters special stats sheets by donating.

They don't do it on active characters because it would tear from the rp of the game, nomatter how you look at it.

Not to mention that they couldn't do that if they wanted to, with the copyrights on a lot of the areas, and the source code.

Our code is a ROM derivative, which is why charging for its use is not permitted by its license. (This does not stop other, less scrupulous MUDs from doing so, but that is a story for a different day.)

Our areas were written for Carrion Fields, and belong to our LLC. We try to honor the writers' wishes where possible, but ultimately, if we decide that an area needs to be altered/removed/expanded, we don't require the writer's permission.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Leave the rare high-quality exceptions who are still entirely free, like CF, out of it.

Be grateful it can be enjoyed without any forced payment.

n/t

.

.

Restriction for races/classes would be a good stimul to buy premium, but it's not necessary.

Ratings + points + vip symbol on the forum near your nickname + something else - it might be enoguh.

Though it's half effective than in-game premium.

>Restriction for races/classes would be a good stimul to buy
>premium, but it's not necessary.
>
>Ratings + points + vip symbol on the forum near your nickname
>+ something else - it might be enoguh.
>
>Though it's half effective than in-game premium.

And doing that wouldn't make it 100% out of the game. Never going to happen.

Donations for possible aesthetic/stupid changes forum related for donations - Sure.

But actually changing CF, the game aspect? No, #### that.

I'd still donate, sure, but I'd end up quitting at some point, where as of now I'd continue to play even if there were only 10 players.


Die you and your silly idea.



<3 mah cf

Something like that I have expected from so-called PRO and vets.
Not even surprised, I love you too :)

Horrible doesn't even begin to describe it.

We have something akin to this in the form of PBFs.

The criteria for any "reward" you have to pay for is this:

It can't give you any game-play advantage whatsoever, including unlocking gear, races, classes, alignments, areas, enhancing abilities, etc.

PBFs fit the bill because they're purchased after the character is already dead.

I will say that any game where people pay for perks I flat out refuse to play. They just suck and it's not fun for casual players to try and compete against people buying perks.

PBF's are a nice way to make donations. I buy a couple now and again for characters outside my own just to support the game, but I don't care if other players ever do. It's not really about money.

And PBF's do give a game play advantage. To a small degree. The difference is, PBF's are available to everyone who wants to read them. So there is no person specific perk to them.

Terrible Idea.
Just terrible.

I'd beat any player who are buying any perks, and I know other vets who would do the same.

And if inept is buying perks... he will be loser still with a lot of perks.

If there is someone who is skilled and bought some good perks... I'd buy more and beat him anyways.

But the problem is... I didn't offer to BUY perks. I offered to make account, on which, during the playing characters, you are earning special points - earning, not buying. Premium only would give you that possibility. When you played enough, you can use those points to buy whatever you can for your character.

>If there is someone who is skilled and bought some good
>perks... I'd buy more and beat him anyways.

This is the classic wallet-slap fight pay for perks games. You'd have to buy more perks in order to compete. Of two equally skilled players, the one with the advantage wins. In other words, you can buy yourself a better position and are in par with players that are actually more skilled than you are.

>But the problem is... I didn't offer to BUY perks. I offered
>to make account, on which, during the playing characters, you
>are earning special points - earning, not buying. Premium only
>would give you that possibility. When you played enough, you
>can use those points to buy whatever you can for your
>character.

You can already earn edge points in the game, even without the special account.

Not going to happen.

Okay, you want to keep it free.

Remove race/class restrictions. What's bad in premium accounts, which will give out-of-game benefits, only a status things?

Not to those with the biggest paycheck.

Or not deserved.

All the time I see that those rewards are often too subjective and, sometimes, goes directly to immchars or vet-only players (I disagree: I'm a vet player and never had such reward, rxcpet for probslby ten failed lich quests, half of which had correct items).

By the way, many would say that this reward system brought this kind of revolution, if you are not aware of, that caused playerbase soaring.

So, fair rewards would be better in any aspect, and it would neutralize those rumors or this negative.

.

But, as a whole, rewards are earned, not bought. Conspiracy theories will always exist.

NT

Putting money into the equation only makes games like these worse.

>Will players pay for that? Surely. Will I pay for that? Of
>course.

Some might pay it, but I'd leave CF for good. CF staff and team marketing hasn't done all they can to promote CF in terms of free marketing. For example, I haven't still seen the flash client CF put up to Kongregate and other flash gaming sites in order to get more players. I've suggested it before, Stunna put it in the list of things to do but nothing has happened in that front yet. Furthermore, CF's website is still incomplete. There's still more that can be done in order to promote CF that doesn't require fund gathering, so I don't think that CF would have to go pay for perks route in order in order to get more players.

Why would you leave?
Please check answer to Amberion so I won't copypaste it.

I copypasted your questions to Amberion.

Why would you stop?

I don't think it's a right thing to do. Since I don't want to pay a monthly fee for games and don't like to be in disadvantage because someone else chooses to pay for it. I don't like pay for perks business model.

Don't you wish to support the game that you are playing for 10-15 years?

By having a compulsory expense like this? No. Furthermore, I haven't played 10-15 years. I started in 2004 and have been quite inactive, playing only casually, for a few years now.

Or are you so poor that you don't have extra 15$/month?

No.

Do you have a feeling of gratefulness at all?

No. I do appreciate the effort the Imms make to make CF a good game, but I don't feel grateful. They are volunteers who do this because they want to.

Added: if you are so poor, well, with a free account you will be able to play free races and classes, so it would be free for you.

Like I said, I don't like pay for perks business model. In addition, CF would be violating the DIKU license if it went pay for perks or pay for play.

Putting the flash client on some game sites?


That's an awesome idea. Heck, if I had found CF that way(and I definitely used to check Kongregate at minimum) I'd have stuck with it.

Regardless of whether it's a good idea or not, CF can't do that.

Go check out the Diku, Merc, and ROM licenses and you'll see why.

.

I'm not going to get into a huge argument over all this because you can find pages upon pages upon pages of discussion on the subject at mudconnect.com. Suffice to say though that most of the MUD community, including the people who wrote these licenses, disagree with you.

Providing premium accounts (on the MUD, not the website) and making players pay for functionality and features is basically too large a step towards making CF a commercial, for-profit game.

Would CF get in trouble for doing it? No. Is there probably a legal loophole to keep them safe? Probably. That said, I believe the IMPs have stated previously that this will never happen and that even if they wanted to, they intend to respect the wishes of the Diku/Merc/ROM creators by not charging players in return for the functionality provided by CF.

Though obviously it has been stated that no in-game benefits are to come, there might be something to a "premium" account.

Player ratings is an interesting idea. I'm not sure how exactly that would be formulated, but it might be worth discussing. You could have top "explorer" characters based on exploration points across characters and "killers" based on pk, and "socializers" based on imp xp or something like that to cover the different types of players.

A "premium" account might get a couple free pbfs a month, or something of that nature. Probably slightly more pbfs than a premium account would cost if you just bought pbfs with it, you know as an incentive to pay every month or whatever instead of just when you feel like it.

You could also give "premium" accounts the ability to moderate slightly on the forums using a rating system, or to post anonymously where they otherwise wouldn't be able to (revive the battlefield maybe). That sort of thing.

I think there are plenty of out of game stuff that players might be willing to throw 5$ a month to get at instead of just whenever they want to buy their own pbf.

We have done, and will continue to do, everything we can to keep a level playing field. What you are suggesting eliminates the very core of what we are trying to keep here.

And, obviously, it is a wrong way, because playerbase is growing short.

I do not blame you, free game - it is great... If it's not dead.

If in 15 years you didn't successed, perhaps you need to review the situation and think of something more popular.

Players are playing. They are having fun. Why it must be free?

Some part of the game will be free for anyone, I inspire you to make premium content.

Turn into a commercial project. Launch good advert. Revive the half-dead game, and don't be affraid - you will not lose players. Vice versa, you will see that players are grateful when we will be buying premium and will be helping the game.

Here, donations won't work that way (and they aren't working).

... They're not in it to gain a super huge playerbase. They're in it to create the game THEY want. If these changes happened, I would stop playing CF, as would most likely 90% of the players currently playing. Just my guess, because that wouldn't be CF.

Why would you stop?
Don't you wish to support the game that you are playing for 10-15 years?
Or are you so poor that you don't have extra 15$/month?

Do you have a feeling of gratefulness at all?

Added: if you are so poor, well, with a free account you will be able to play free races and classes, so it would be free for you.

Cf is free, and yes, most of us have been playing for close to 15 years, and were all grown up now, and we have kids and familiys and house payments and whatnot. Some of us don't have extra cash, and it would be pretty gay to cripple the players that play this free game for their enjoyment and release by letting the rich kids with moms credit card buy up all the quest forms and mino slots.

Its a horrible idea. It won't fix anything, and i bet more than 85% of the players would immediately quit if people paying money got more advantages than people that didn't.

If you want to play a game where you have to pay to be badass, you're in the wrong place pal. The skilled players here earn their right to kick ass, with hours of hard work and dedication. There is no quick substitute, and I know several players that have only been playing a couple years or more that are easily on par with the rest of the players.

You want to be Elite? Quit looking for an easy way out and put the work in.

"we have kids and familiys and house payments and whatnot"

Well, I feel sorry for you if you don't have extra ten bucks once per month to support your favorite game.

About 85%, excuse me, but I have different statistic. you are taking it from the top of your head, and I have precise numbers. Yes, some would leave (and probably way to go), but others will remain. And more will come.

Just do the math, it's not hard.

It takes time to be good at CF and now we would have to pay for it too? #### that.

Take dates, take microsoft calc (c) and sum all PBF's per month.

Now, some numbers.

Registration per player costs about 1,5$ in med-quality browser-based games. In poor, hardcore, or text games it would be something like 3$.

Registration of *active* player (that will stay to play) costs: 15$ in a poor game, 8-10$ in good, but hardcore game (I think MUD games may be here), 5-7$ i extra-class game.

Registration cost per active-paying player is something like 50-70$ in a poor game, 40-49$ in hardcore game, 30-39$ in med class game, and 25-30$ in a superior game.

I don't know costs for banners on mud-sites, but I don't think it's much less than anywhere else.

Advert in a good, commercial game is about 50k$ monthly, in superior game with wide PB - about 100-200k$ / month. Extrapolate it to CF.

And now, look at your microsoft calc (c).

Do you still think it's enough for a good advert?

It's all about enjoyment.

And the donation system is really a 100% 'your choice' system only.

I do not suggest to make money a goal. I suggest to make something that would provide enough sources for a good edvertisement, that's all.

Though I see nothing wrong if imms would get paid for their amazing work, that they are doing FOR FREE FOR ALL THOSE YEARS.

Just imagine that YOU are working for someone for 15 years. For free.
But you will never do it, because youre not even ready to pay ten sorry bucks per month for the one of the best entertainements in your... life.

Both for the IMMS and the players. The IMMs on CF are not the staff of a commercial game publisher.

Why you think that spending money on in-game advantages would fix anything is beyond me. Even if the game would grow bigger, it wouldn't be CF anymore and where is the fun in that?

How is spending $200 or more a fair advantage? In the end there would be a huge gap between those that can/want-to pay and those that do not (wish to).

I have plenty of bills and regular expanses to pay. I have to work and do a whole of shores in and around the house. And, when I finally have some free time, you now force me to pay for that as well!? Not going to happen, no way.

.

I will sure as hell NOT play a game where someone can have an OOC advantage on me because they PAYED for it.

I'd gladly pay 10$/month to play CF. (Which when I think about it I should make a habbit to donate 10$/month.)

BUYING advantages in CF would kill off 90% of the playersbase.

I've played CF totally for 5 years. (I started out 10 years ago and played for a year, then came back 4 years ago and have played since.) And I think that I'm on par with those who have played for 10+ years by now. All that hard work and then you have to PAY to stay on top?

What I love about CF is that all start out at the same spot, only your skill level/knowledge is what gives you an edge. I've played a lot of other games where one can pay for advantages. (I played Navyfields for quite some time) And that style is just bleh! That's why I've left all of those games. (Only one I miss is EVE-online.)

Don't you start to twist words on me again eh.

... The other VIP stuff, like having a VIP account where I can track my chars, links to my past chars etc would be real cool and something I'd pay for, that's for sure.

"I will sure as hell NOT play a game where someone can have an OOC advantage on me because they PAYED for it."

Never did say that (except for the race/class restriction probably, but hey - aren't they are all balanced and equal? :)

What I did say - preimoum would unlock some alternative possibilities + OOC possibilities (rating, rofum powers, etc etc etc).

In other words, everyone who got the premium would be on the same terms. Those, who are playing for free at the beginning won't even notice the difference. Should he become hardcore player, he will not mind paying for premium.

But ultimately, it's a thing I WANT to do. The moment it becomes something I NEED to do, is the moment that I stop doing it. There are plenty of other things that NEED to be done, like making sure I get my bills paid, keeping my health in check and keeping in touch with my social contacts.

I want to contribute to CF as best, and as constructively as I can, but I will not let it rule my life. No way.

From what you say, it sounds like you take this game way too serious, maybe you want to step back a little.

>And, obviously, it is a wrong way, because playerbase is
>growing short.

Not singling out you specifically, but "I hate X about CF, and X is clearly why player counts are dropping" is the forum argument I'm most tired of, especially since no one's ideas of what X is are compatible.

I wasn't speaking of something particular. I was talking about whole strategy. Facts are on my side: I rememer online 100, and now it's 7 sometimes.

You can't deny - you DO something wrong, otherwise you would have more players.

But I understand that you are not ready for such global changes in CF life. Though it would be good, premium accounts are a common thing and easily accepted by players. Perhaps after next 15 years you will come to this yourself :)

I didn't write a very long post, but somehow you missed the point.

~

I happily donate my dollars to CF in the hopes just to keep the world of Thera turning. This place is practically my second family, but If I ever though some A**clown was killing me because he was better paid then me I definately would go bub-bye. The whole idea of CF having purchasable rewards turns my stomach.