I'd like to point out that I love drow, because of the roleplay. I also like elves, which is why I'm wondering why CF goes out of the way to make these two races suck ass!

*Metal vulnerabilities are brutal, only bash is worse then mithril.
*Intelligence is probably the least important stat in the game. High Intelligence is a convenience, not a deathly attribute.
*Perm sneak can be gained from an item, and a great deal of classes get sneak anyway... Not knockin perm sneak, it rules, just saying it's not a huge pro.
*Can't get 22 wisdom (even though half-drow can), check shaman.
*This race is made for a spellcasting class, yet, no spellcasting class benefits from high dex. So the high dex (in my opinion) is wasted.
*The exp penalty is terrible.

Compare drow shaman vs dwarf shaman. Can someone explain? If the imms want to keep the number of drow down, they have succeeded. Picking drow is like shooting yourself in the foot.

>I'd like to point out that I love drow, because of the
>roleplay. I also like elves, which is why I'm wondering why CF
>goes out of the way to make these two races suck ass!

I guarantee I'm the worst player here, but I think I've found something suprisingly workable with my drow shaman. She has a fun role, and she even kills people, believe it or not.

>*Metal vulnerabilities are brutal, only bash is worse then
>mithril.

Protections really help, and you often can make people drop the weapon. I've never found mithril vulnerability to be insurmountable.

>*Intelligence is probably the least important stat in the
>game. High Intelligence is a convenience, not a deathly
>attribute.

I'm fairly certain it can mean the difference between life and death. Then again, I'm not completely informed about mechanics.

>*Perm sneak can be gained from an item, and a great deal of
>classes get sneak anyway... Not knockin perm sneak, it rules,
>just saying it's not a huge pro.

It is a huge pro, and that's probably why they want 500 exp for it.

>*Can't get 22 wisdom (even though half-drow can), check
>shaman.

Elves can learn 3 skills completely each rank. Do half-breeds?

>*This race is made for a spellcasting class, yet, no
>spellcasting class benefits from high dex. So the high dex (in
>my opinion) is wasted.

Shaman frequently fight, so I am assuming the dexterity helps. My drow has chopped people up many of times - even with a polearm, 1 on 1. More importantly, parrying and shield blocking are improved with drow. Also, you can carry a lot more trinkets.

>*The exp penalty is terrible.

Terrible, but I've had no problems ranking her at all. For such a frail creature, many of the scions, orcs and fire giants still depended on her to take blows. I would even think drow are better at it than dwarves, since they have more mana to heal, and get hit much less.

You could look at the penalties, thinking the IMMs simply hate elf/drow. But maybe it's a respect for the race that most of us don't yet appreciate. I still think Storm Giants get too much love, but guiltily, my crappy drow has killed them.

>Compare drow shaman vs dwarf shaman. Can someone explain? If
>the imms want to keep the number of drow down, they have
>succeeded. Picking drow is like shooting yourself in the
>foot.

She's never faced dwarves but she's had more success against storm giant shaman than they against her. This shouldn't happen at all if drow shaman are as inferior as you are saying.

I'd still bet my yen on drow over dwarf shaman, if the players are equally skilled. You want to get the first strike if you can, and drow are better at it because of the sneaking.

I haven't had any problems in the least, and I'm fairly incompetent at CF. I don't think it takes any skill to kill people with a drow shaman, because I've done it. I also have logs if you are curious.

>>*Perm sneak can be gained from an item, and a great deal of
>>classes get sneak anyway... Not knockin perm sneak, it rules,
>>just saying it's not a huge pro.
>
>It is a huge pro, and that's probably why they want 500 exp
>for it.

I thought they only wanted 100 exp for that part, as the halfs get it. Or maybe they're just giving them a discount to encourage more people to play the halfs.

I feel no need to comment on anything else you said, as it was all well thought out and well reasoned. I only picked that part to try and defuse negative comments on it before they started.

--Quislet,
who'd play more drow if he could get a better handle on evil RP.

They get quiet movement, which while useful, is vastly inferior to permasneak.

>I thought they only wanted 100 exp for that part, as the halfs
>get it. Or maybe they're just giving them a discount to
>encourage more people to play the halfs.

I think it's different. If you make half-breeds pink, you can see which way they went. But if you make elves/drow pink, they still sneak. Not that it matters, since I can never manage to chase people down, anyhow.

>I feel no need to comment on anything else you said, as it was
>all well thought out and well reasoned. I only picked that
>part to try and defuse negative comments on it before they
>started.

Nice of you to look out for me. ;)

>--Quislet,
>who'd play more drow if he could get a better handle on evil
>RP.

Well I doubt anyone truly understands evil. There are so many facets to it, and that's why I like exploring it. You only need a quick overview of the drow mentality, and from there you can add your own flair. There are many conceptual approaches you can take and I'd be happy to suggest a few or talk about them with you.

This isn't an attempt to refute the above post, but it reminded me of a point I've been meaning to make.

>I'd still bet my yen on drow over dwarf shaman, if the players
>are equally skilled.

If a dark-elf shaman and a dwarf shaman were facing off in some kind of Thunderdome-esque two-man-enta-one-man-leave steel cage match, I might well bet on the dwarf shaman. Both characters have unique strengths, but I can make a pretty compelling argument that the dwarf's might well prove better in a shaman vs. shaman duel.

However, there are many other fights and situations in which I would bet that a dark-elf shaman would perform better than a dwarf shaman.

There's a popular misconception (not shared by everyone, I'm glad to note) that if character A tends to beat B, then A must be better than B. If B can wipe the floor with X, Y, and Z and A has a hard time with X and Y, that might not be the case.

I love DROW... as most anyone can tell you!!!

:-D

The simple fact is, I've played CF since '94 and the Imms have done a FANTASTIC job balancing it all, race, class, whatever.

It's my opinion that the biggest factor over whether or not you think a race is good is whether or not you can play that race.

For example, a felar assassin can tear up most anyone at certain ranks with little effort from the player... as you gain ranks, you need to start using some strategy, and something other than "throw throw throw" or "trip trip trip"... (*remembers a poem from awhile back*) Whether or not you as the player can employ said tactics will determine whether or not you think the class 'sucks'...

Remember, just because you don't know how to use a race to its fullest potential, doesn't mean the race sucks.

I'm not saying you suck as a player, I'm just saying maybe a Drow isn't for you. They take more patience than the average race (at least in the beginning) and you need to have a better-than-average ability to flee/avoid combat, but in the end, there is a reason they have a 500exp penalty and it pays off.

Went something like this

Ode to Tikar

Roses are bash
violets are trip
bash bash bash
trip trip trip

I think it was removed for obvious reasons
but I still thought it was funny.

It was hilarious, but I think it was...

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Bash Bash Bash,
Trip Trip Trip.

hahaha

Roses are trip
Violets are bash
trip, trip, trip
bash, bash, bash

I don't know if you've played CF for five days or five years. It doesn't really matter. It's clear that you do not understand the dynamics of the game well enough yet to make intelligent comments about its balance.

Play a fire giant anti-paladin for a week. You might think it's better than d-elf a-p; maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I can't see any reason to say: dark elves may not be anti-paladins, but that doesn't mean they're going to be the 'best' at it, either. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and force you to play a dark elf if you think they suck.

If after a week of fire a-p you still have no idea about why a dark-elf has some noteworthy advantages over it (regardless of whether you think those advantages are persuasive enough to play d-elf) you may want to take up a different game, such as checkers.

I'll post a message on this board. =)

hehe
You guys are brutal.

It's just SOME of us get our less than warm and fuzzy posts removed, whereas others do not.

>It's just SOME of us get our less than warm and fuzzy posts removed,
>whereas others do not.

My harsh stuff seems to stick around. Maybe it's my lack of swearing, or my occasional apology, or that I don't usually make personal attacks, or maybe just someone likes me. I think I was an ass when it came to posts to Sebeok about thief skills, but it's still there.

No, I'm not saying any of that is why your stuff gets removed, all I know is that I didn't do it. What I am saying is for anyone who wants to write something harsh: keeping it civil greatly increases the chances of people being able to read it.

--Quislet

It is much like the contrast between the poll of "strongest" classes and "most fun" classes. If there were no trade-offs to playing a drow, they would indeed not be balanced.

No message

1) We're aware of the quantitative factors.
2) There's a reason we don't have them posted on the website.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I'd like to point out that I love drow, because of the roleplay. I also like elves, which is why I'm wondering why CF goes out of the way to make these two races suck ass!

Because they don't?

They're consistently both among our 5 or 6 most popular races.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

:Uh.Because they don't?

:They're consistently both among our 5 or 6 most popular races.



I guarantee drow aps/assassins are popular among first time players as well. (Doesn't mean they're comparable to the alternatives)

The fact is the 'idea' of the race is popular but the mechanics of them compared to the other races completely blow.


Cheers.
Jhyrbian.

The fact is the 'idea' of the race is popular but the mechanics of them compared to the other races completely blow.

I don't think that's accurate either. It might have been a few years ago, but they've gained from a number of recent changes, especially when we revised mana gains about a year ago. They're a very solid pick for at least three of their classes (invoker, healer, transmuter), and decent angles for several others.

I think a dark-elf shaman would play very differently than a dwarf shaman, but there's a lot to be said for a deep mana pool, fast regen, and sneak. It might not be enough to offset the resilience of a dwarf, but that might depend on player style.

As fighting classes, they stack up well against magi/communers in general- mithril isn't a big concern there, especially given their dodge/etc, and they don't have elemental vulnerabilities that an invoker/conjurer/etc. can punish them with. And being smart never hurts- a lot of players underestimate the value of mental stats.

I haven't seen too much of how they play out as APs since the (rather significant) changes went in recently, but the gap between duergar/fire APs and the rest of that pack closed as well. I wouldn't say they're my top choice, but they aren't my bottom one either. Another immortal approached me recently to discuss the possibility that they might even be too good in a certain level range, but we're taking a wait-and-see approach there.

I admit a year ago I would have been singing a different tune. But I've seen a lot more, especially through some tough dark-elf characters that played to their strengths.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

::I don't think that's accurate either. It might have been a few years ago, but they've gained from a number of recent changes, especially when we revised mana gains about a year ago. They're a very solid pick for at least three of their classes (invoker, healer, transmuter), and decent angles for several others.



Nice picks for the three classes. Two of which have class enabled dam-reduction and the other a class that doesn't often stand toe to toe with people without wands comming out the ying yang.


::As fighting classes, they stack up well against magi/communers in general- mithril isn't a big concern there, especially given their dodge/etc, and they don't have elemental vulnerabilities that an invoker/conjurer/etc. can punish them with. And being smart never hurts- a lot of players underestimate the value of mental stats.

Yeah, but mithril weapons are a dime a dozen and it's not the dodging people are complaining about, because that's just fine and dandy. But when's the last time you saw someone dodge a backstab, ambush, pincer, flurry, jab, doublethrust, etc. Sure being smart helps but it just seems to me that with drow warriorish classes being smart is on par with being forced to avoid(ie: hide like a bitch from) alot of things.

::I haven't seen too much of how they play out as APs since the (rather significant) changes went in recently, but the gap between duergar/fire APs and the rest of that pack closed as well. I wouldn't say they're my top choice, but they aren't my bottom one either. Another immortal approached me recently to discuss the possibility that they might even be too good in a certain level range, but we're taking a wait-and-see approach there.

No idea on that one, i tend to avoid classes that require hours of prep searching.

::I admit a year ago I would have been singing a different tune. But I've seen a lot more, especially through some tough dark-elf characters that played to their strengths.


I don't know any of these tough dark-elf characters you're talking about. So we'll leave it at that.


Cheers.

Jhyrbian.