To ask a question I asked on, you know, to the right people ...

Are there any plans on removing/totally revisiting Whitecloak Encampment?

After the entire non-original area clean-up from a while back, it's still the biggest thorn in CF's side. The Whitecloak way of life just does not seem to fit in with the way things work, at Thera.

FWIW

A revamp of it has been mostly done for a while, just waiting on a few things.

Whenever that is. Thanks

Figures, soon as I figure out the nuances of that area after all these years. Heh.

It's a shame that the area is going but I can definately understand from an originality and copyright perspective why it is.

Not many people really got the concept but there is a matter of intrigue and disguise that makes maneuvering around the area much more reasonable. It definately sticks with the theme of the RJ storyline but not so much with CF.

Maybe I'll get a chance to rewrite it using the same neat progs/code that Sebeok put into making the area unique.

I also owe him a beer for how difficult it was to make that happen!

To make the chars good aligned? I mean, even as far as the books go they aren't really lightwalking characters. I'd even be hardpressed to find any reason why any mob that autoattacks good characters could be considered good.

From a CF alignment perspective? Yes. From an RP perspective, no. Whitecloaks, to me, were extremest Marans. Their motto was you are either "with them, or against them."

If you recall from the books(and it's been a loooong time since I've read the books), anything that was 'different' than their Order was what made them perceive others as 'evil.'

So in CF, giant and demihumans are percieved as evil immediately. As I stated, there are ways to easily navigate the area based on the above information. Unfortunately, you have to have read the books or know something about the "Whitecloak Order" to understand this.

I don't want to get into too much depth on it because the area is still in game. I'm not really sure how in depth the staff goes into area design at this stage of the game.

All of my neutral and good characters are whitecloak addicts. Addicts. Once I get to a certain level, whitecloaks is one of the first places I go when ghostly, and when a bit older or hero it's a prime spot for a myriad of purposes. I'll be very sad if the re-write does away with everything rather than simply make it more cosmetically theran rather than jordan.

I also tend to spend a ton of time in the area with my characters, especially neutrals. I appreciate the balance of risk and reward. People who are familiar with the current Whitecloaks area will probably appreciate many of the details in the revamped area. But the changes aren't simply cosmetic - there is a cost to perceiving the entire outside world as your enemy.

Let us just say that the wheel of time turns....

And smack down all kinds of different goodies because I perceive them as evil, I'll get hit by align change. I think that the goodness of whitecloaks is self-perceived, but in CF sense, they shouldn't have a golden aura.

Why should you not get away with it? Outlanders and Battle do for example.

Eh.... not really.

There is really not that much difference between someone who relentlessly hunts mages (including goodies) because in their mind they are evil and someone who relentlessly hunts all non-humans because they think they are evil.

The only difference is funstick and history of cf.

What I'm telling you is that the "good-aligned" version of that character is at constant risk of becoming neutral and probably deleting shortly thereafter.

And look at what Trewyn's title was.

Trewyn the Forsaken Leader of Battle, (to save you some time)
Trewyn the Forsaken of the Light (the title I got after I gave up the leader spot)

Trewyn was an elf. Trewyn was made neutral for killing a LOT of goodies at one time in a MASSIVE raid on the fortress (which at the time had a mage cabal in it). Granted the villagers with Trewyn did a good portion of the killing, as commander and leader of the strike, and the one who declared war on the fortress, all souls fall on Trewyn. Trewyn lost his specs. Con died about two and a half weeks later before the imms got around to doing a quest to get them back.

I'm not arguing with Daevryn, I'm merely accenting his point. There is a risk involved and it's embedded in Battle History. I'm sure there are others besides Trewyn who were of the light and became neutral because of unremorseful killing of goodie magi.

"It must be done for the greater good, for this misguided soul won't listen to reason and give up his vile ways. And each time I punish him, I express the pain and regret that his necessary punishment inflicts on my psyche, and I renew my vow to destroy that evil which has deceived him into following this path."

To demonstrate you are good, you need to make it clear that you are killing this other good-hearted person out of duty, that you have exhausted all other means available, and that you regret the necessity.

nt

It's also worth noting that the whitecloaks aren't out combing the countryside, and they WARN YOU when you get too close that "bad things" will happen if you keep going.

It's also worth noting that many of them are neutral.

Also, that they're not "heroes of the land". It's conceivable that they could just be grunts who are "following orders". I see someone in the camp who's not part of my army, so I attack. That doesn't make them non-good.

The really dastardly ones (High Inquisitor, Spymaster, etc.) are in fact neutral. (I could see a good case for them being evil instead, but I'm not too upset about them being neutral.)

If someone comes into my house uninvited, and won't leave when I tell them to, I'll probably attack.

Even if it's the Pope himself (especially if it's the Pope).

Certainly doesn't make me evil. At least, I hope.

Point being.. you can't say just because someone attacks you, they're evil. YOU are the one that's coming into THEIR base uninvited, after all.

>From a CF alignment perspective? Yes. From an RP
>perspective, no. Whitecloaks, to me, were extremest Marans.
>Their motto was you are either "with them, or against them."


Yeah, I wouldn't call that good. Either in the books or CF. I think in every situation where a specific group becomes so narrow minded about how their ideology works, they've fallen from the true spirit of the religion or ideas.

I think that no matter how you slice it, Whitecloaks are neutral bordering evil more than they are good.


Murdering a doctor who does abortions a godly act?

Makes the question kind of faulty.

If someone who thinks they're doing good by killing a doctor, it isn't murder.

Let's say you see some guy punting babies off an overpass onto I-95. You have a gun, and shoot him in the face to make him stop. Is it murder? Nope. You killed him to save the babies.

So did the guy who killed the abortion-happy doctor.

Neither are murderers. Both are saints, who acted in defense of the helpless children.




And no, I don't believe any of that #### I wrote. But you have to look at things from more than your own narrow-minded perspective.

I know my example probably wasn't the best, but you know what I'm talking about.

If you went there with an intent to kill the guy and had planned the whole thing ahead, then it's a murder. A Maran who goes to a fight with an intent to kill a duergar and succeeds is a murderer, alignment be damned. But, to get back to the topic, how is that guy punting babies off an overpass a goodie?

I'm just saying, it depends on perspective.

Just out of curiosity.. is a soldier who goes to war considered a murderer in your eyes? Sure as hell isn't in mine. Just because you kill someone on purpose doesn't mean you've done something wrong. Some people just plain need to die.

>I'm just saying, it depends on perspective.

Right and wrong, maybe. Murder, however, is a fairly well defined legal term.

>Just out of curiosity.. is a soldier who goes to war
>considered a murderer in your eyes? Sure as hell isn't in
>mine.

That depends on what he does there. Shooting unarmed civilians counts as murder in my book. Shooting enemy troops in battle, in a sense, is self defence as they are out there to get you as well.

Just because you kill someone on purpose doesn't mean
>you've done something wrong. Some people just plain need to
>die.

A murder is a murder. Right and wrong can be judged separately.

Wrote off the area the moment they were autoattacked by good aligned mobs. Very few people seem to go there, and I bet fewer still even have a clue what you're talking about with the progs/code that Sebeok did.

Which makes it more of a tragedy, than just a shame.

...I'd be happy to see it go to have one less auto-death by teleport area. It's bad enough the new Dragon Tower is insta-pop.

I liked the area though for the ghost request...sadly I never got to do that much more. Could never find that forest-green gear guy reliably and I could never figure out a way to get around without getting attacked.

Hints or flat out spoilers would be nice once it's gone.