You get one "quick flyto" per hour, then subsequent "flytos" have slightly more lag. Not "drastically more", but more than the initial quick one.

Too nerfy? Not needed in the first place?

If we were to add a check to the balance system, let's change hunter's aerial shot in this manner.

- Remove the cool-down timer on aerial shot.
- Let aerial shot work on flying and landbound targets, but alter the chance of hitting the target by terrain type (from bad to best: swamp, forest, mountain, hill/city, tundra/desert, plains/roads).
- Increase splat-damage
- Give me Werebane as my next leader weapon.

The main problem with those shifters is the annoyance factor.
They can relatevely easy follow you and, thus, don't let you relax/explore/get hurt/etc. And you can't fight them back until they decide to jump on you.
So you're hunted while you can't really hunt them back. I would dare to call it "broken". There are similar issues with hide/camo/duo classes, but at least they have to find you and be in the same area and sometimes you can detect them.

> I
>would dare to call it "broken". There are similar issues with
>hide/camo/duo classes, but at least they have to find you and
>be in the same area and sometimes you can detect them.

Style of gameplay you don't enjoy does not always equal broken.

But while I'm enjoying it I realize that it's broken. And you?
If you take an ordinary shifter (off/def, etc) and compare it with an air/offense shifter you will notice one important difference. The second one is almost like the first one plus ability to quickly find enemies plus ability to pick fights.
Similar advantages usually are given to stealth classes but for a price. They are limited in other aspects. For example, warriors usually own thieves/assassin in melee.
This is not the case for air shifters. They get these two powerful PK advantages (find and pick) relatively cheap. Most of shifters usually use one of their forms as primary in PK, so air shifters don't really suffer from having only one primary melee form.
That's the reason why almost every PK oriented shifter in hero range has an air form. You may think that's a coincidence, but I assure you it is not :)
Hell, I even had an air/utility as an exploration shifter (not for PK) just because it's too convenient.

I think offense/defense or utility/something is much better than offense/air if you plan to mostly play at hero and care about raiding cabals or getting your item back.

I don't deny that air is really good, but it's not like we haven't seen a large number of PK successful shifters built on other templates as well. Only water really seems to fall down to me because so little of cabal war depends on water.

>I think offense/defense or utility/something is much better
>than offense/air if you plan to mostly play at hero and care
>about raiding cabals or getting your item back.

Air/offense is the best for getting your item back. They just can't catch you. I suggest you to try one.
For raiding, off/def could be better, yes. But in groups air/off do just fine, and they can scout for opposition and their disposition.

>If you take an ordinary shifter (off/def, etc) and compare it
>with an air/offense shifter you will notice one important
>difference. The second one is almost like the first one plus
>ability to quickly find enemies plus ability to pick fights.
>Similar advantages usually are given to stealth classes but
>for a price.

You don't feel like the air/off shifter "pays a price" for the ability to quickly locate people? How about "spending an entire shapefocus"? I agree losing the one focus doesn't totally nerf them since most people only use one form to PK anyway, but they do give up a lot of utility.

That said, I would probably still take air as a focus if I were going to play a shifter. Just because I hate walking all over the place to find people to fight.

Some air forms aren't balanced. Falcons, for instance outmeleed my orc even indoors.

I don't have a problem with shifters that have flyto. I do have a problem with shifters that flyto and do mangles with the weird weapon code that shifters have (exotic or something) so you can't parry or dodge it effectively.

Either you're so small and manoeuverable that you can fly indoors and fight or you're so big that you fly and still deal mangles. It should be either or, or some kind of trade off.

I'm kind of fine with the fact that a falcon can outmelee your orc, as long as it takes a long time. A mongoose could too, but you're not likely to die to a mongoose.

What I was trying to tone down was the "inescapability" factor that "fast flyto" gives air shifters against opponents who can't magically transport themselves and/or have a sub-optimal link.

Maybe it's not a huge deal.

I would rather air shifters get one flyto every so many hours and give some of them lagging skills. The scout plus escape ability would still make them worth playing but not as one trick as they are currently.

>I would rather air shifters get one flyto every so many hours
>and give some of them lagging skills.

Yep, but I'd like it to be the rule and not the exception.

Shifters already get there butts kicked by others. You try and play a shifter verses villagers, or anyone. They get owned, and it's not even close all the way up to hero, and that depends on the form you get at hero and how many wands you can find for them to even stand a chance. Then, if you do find wants and do have an ok form to fight, you still have to fight villagers who do nothing more than one move, or two tops and rely on their deathblows to do anythign. Then, if it gets to bad for the villager, he just thirst and air/whatever shifter gets completely destroyed unless that shifter is a scion, and can despoil for many more hps. Why nerf the one good skill an air shifter gets, or make it a round of lag? Getting completely tooled leveling up by all the level sitting villagers, and finally IF they actually make it to hero they get a nice skill.

Come on, really? Shifters need something because they can't lag anyone unless you have that specific form, dire wolf, wasp, ect...

Just my opinion.

To ignore that is to intentionally cast a blind eye toward a major perq of the class.

Air forms should not do well in combat versus any build, any cabal.

The shifters most likely to fight ragers are given some tools to make it work. Wands, obviously, but ridiculous scion hp doesn't hurt either. Or a bond mate. Also remember that ragers don't always have powers. And, when they lack them, they're worse off than most people are.

Here are some berserkers who were most deadly to "skilled" shifters (solo): Woldrun, Bartis, Malakhi, Ignacio, Djabree. Malakhi's still alive and Ignacio has no PBF. But let's look at the others' solo deaths:

Woldrun:

Jan 28, 2009|Lv 51|Feanwyyn Weald|vs 1: Ospinkin (100%,KB)
Apr 2, 2009 |Lv 51|The Ruins of Ostalagiah|vs 1: Ospinkin (100%,KB)

Bartis:

May 4, 2009 |Lv 46|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Ikanu (100%,KB)
May 8, 2009 |Lv 50|The Ruins of Ostalagiah|vs 1: Dierj (100%,KB)
May 8, 2009 |Lv 50|Hamsah Mu'tazz|vs 1: Caztor (100%,KB)
May 21, 2009|Lv 51|Temple of Loch Grynmear|vs 1: Tameron (100%,KB)
May 31, 2009|Lv 51|High Lord's Keep|vs 1: Dierj (100%,KB)

Djabree:

May 18, 2008|Lv 46|Galadon|vs 1: Gedyon (100%,KB)
Jun 12, 2008|Lv 49|Silverwood|vs 1: Nitch (100%,KB)
Jul 4, 2008 |Lv 51|Domain of Eternal Night|vs 1: Kharnial (100%,KB)

Also let's not forget that Woldrun and Djabree were played by two of the best warrior-players around. So one could argue they're not really representative of "average berserker" toughness.

Another thing to consider is that ragers really match up well in the "solo fight" situation. They're arguably more screwed (compared to non-ragers) when it's, say, three shifters after them instead of just one.

is one of the best warrior players around?

I dunno. Since he started churning out high quality warriors?

Hunsobo, Woldrun, Iltanthal and Feilinal isn't a bad resume.

How about one of the "better" warrior players, instead?

I mean seriously, are you kidding me? You are comparing the battleragers verses those VERY FEW who make it into scion. There are many many more shifters out there who aren't in scion, and you compare them to those?

I have no care for any villager. There is no reason why they should ever not have there head with the amount of warriors they have. The few times they dont have there head, it's not like they couldn't just walk up and easily get it again. Then, they get there resistance, spellbane, and some get the deathblow. You cannot compare a scion shapeshifter to the village. That's just the very, very small few who actually make it into scion.

Not every warrior is a berserker. Not every shifter is in Scion. However, most evil shifters worth a damn will eventually get into Scion if they're trying to.

Also, you'll notice that two of the shifters who solo-killed Djabree were not Scion.

As for raiding...uh...play a rager. They kind of get the shaft. Especially when Empire takes the head.

Especially the notion of "Play Battle for a while, especially higher level Battle, then get back to us."

So there!

I've racked up massively positive PK ratios as slow-levelling shifters. Yes, including fighting Battle.

Shifter isn't a great class for me, so if I can do it, probably a lot of people can do it. (But don't, because a lot of the serial shifter players are powerlevel-and-see-what-forms-I-get compulsive gambler junkies.)

I'm not sure where you find and multikill newbies to get that massively positive PK ratio as a slow-levelling shifter.
I'm really curious because I don't remember if I ever died with any of my characters to a low/middle level shifter. Especially as a battle.
Anything below a top tier form isn't really scary. Maybe not bad for killing newbies though.

>I'm not sure where you find and multikill newbies to get that
>massively positive PK ratio as a slow-levelling shifter.
>I'm really curious because I don't remember if I ever died
>with any of my characters to a low/middle level shifter.
>Especially as a battle.

I've killed players better than you are that way. No offense.

But I'm not interested in hunting for logs or trying to provide examples, because there's always going to be a reason why you think it doesn't really count.

>I've killed players better than you are that way. No
>offense.

No offense, but I think it happened in your dreams.
Or you making the last hit while a victim is bashed by four giant warriors.

>But I'm not interested in hunting for logs or trying to
>provide examples, because there's always going to be a reason
>why you think it doesn't really count.

I understand that hunting for logs is inconvenient, especially if they very likely going to ruin the whole mental construction.

You crossed the line here pal. You just flat out called the guy a liar. I've had my issues with the staff, and some have lied, but so far Nep never has, and I seriously doubt this is where he'd start.

Something's happened to you over the last year. Not sure what it is, but you're much, much more bitter than before. You never add anything to the conversation anymore, you only chime in to be a asshole. If you want to be an asshole, you need to balance it with a somewhat equal measure of positive contribution.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

I have had kills with the hedgehog everytime I have had it (3 hedge hogs for 5 kills and its a first level defense form)

The wombat is also a nasty form to pk with in the low ranks.

Forms I wish I had in the mid ranks include the skyflash, wolf, badger.

Most mages don't take the time to gear at the mid ranks is what really kills them, preping... all you really need is protection/stoneskin maybe aura or shield, Especially at the very low ranks with a form that can charge your set.

There's one with cutoff or pounce in the forests. Lynx maybe? I almost died to that as a mid-ranked non-shifter.

Is the lack of controls and the amount of preparation time.

If you don't have controls, enlivening everything you need to survive/compete, just makes it very grueling. I believe it is possible to have a successful PK ratio in the mid-ranks. Especially with the handful of aura/shield/protection preps available prior to level 30.

You've used up your stupid quota. GTFO.