Am I the only one who finds it a bit silly that the very first skill availible(kinda) to a shield paladin is Shield Mastery at level 10, when it is not even PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to meet the prerequisites for the skill until after level 15?

Even at level 15 its a crap shoot to see if you'll meet the prerequisites before you rank up even higher, especially for some of the dum-dum races.

Its kinda a ####-tease to have it at level 10 if it is LITTERALLY NEVER availible at level 10.

My suggestion? Switch the order of the skills.

current order:
shield mastery, shield jab, flank attack, angel wing

proposed order:
shield jab, flank attack, shield mastery, angel wing

24 isn't too late to be getting shield mastery as it goes up pretty quick even for the dumb races, and by that level you really SHOULD have the prereqs done so people who aren't aware of these issues wouldn't be teased into thinking they might actually get a skill when they dedicate themselves to the life of the shield.

I would consider moving shield mastery to 15 if it would make people happy.

I would not consider moving anything down to 10 to compensate.

I don't really see a balance/gameplay reason to move it. So if the only real reason to move it is because this guy's whining, it doesn't really seem worth the effort.

Shield deds are the only paladins that don't get a dedication skill at lvl 10.

2-hands get strike, monks get avoid, champions get bat.

Shield deds get.. nothing.

If you're cool with the way that works, fine. But it seems kind of broken as it is now. I mean, hypothetically, if you were creating shield ded's from scratch right now (as you did with monks and champions), would you give them 2 lvl 15 skills, and zero at lvl 10?

nt

However, they have and are using shield block, which is a useful skill that the other three dedications can't use if not a shield ded exclusive.

I'm more interested in how they balance, level for level, than some kind of anal-retentive sense of symmetry.

BTW, how much do I need to donate to un-suck shield bash?

Just a thought.

Shield bash rocks. You're on crack if you think it sucks.

nt

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Is there some kind of trick or variable most of us aren't familiar with?

However, you could give the skill some utilitarian use beyond lagging. It would make the skill more of a used one, if it had some use beyond being a fairly bad lagging move.

But I have no idea how.

Bash has the factors that affect it's reliability in the helpfile (size, weight, bash skill). I'd love the same courtesy being given for shield bash. As it is now, the helpfile is about 1 line long saying nothing.

It's pretty much all the same stuff.

The main thing is you aren't ever going to get reliable/total command denial out of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's trash -- it's true of most of the lagging skills in the game to varying degrees.

The art to it is more in knowing when one or two shield bashes at the right time will take advantage of someone who's overextended themselves a little too much, especially given that as a shield paladin there probably aren't as many characters you can straight out-melee as with some of the bash characters.

This whole debate's been had before. Search on dios if you want. I and others posted logs of shield bash sealing kills, being useful, etc.

Shield bash is a good skill. Really.

What factor plays a big role for making it actually cause lag?

It's more than just an extra defense, you know.

Personally, I think they should beef up shield bash and make it defender only and available at lvl 10. Shield mastery should be first available at lvl 15.

BTW, the only prereq is to have shield block at 90%. That's not really a secret, or a crap shoot. Just takes an hour or so of effort.

I said more specifically its a crap shoot if you're a dumb race, which it is. I spent much more than an hour to get 91%.

As far as newbs are concerned, it is a secret. Exactly how logical is it to offer a skill that you are COMPLETELY UNABLE TO GET.

It isn't a "crap shoot" if you're a dumb race. It just takes some time. It's no different than assassin kicks or invoker spells. I have no problem at all with the 90% shield block requirement (though I DO think it should be in the helpfiles.. if it isn't already).

But as far as getting the skill at lvl 10, I agree. It should be a lvl 15 skill, with (a mildly improved) shield bash as a defender's lvl 10 skill.

You aren't COMPLETELY UNABLE TO GET it, just very, very unlikely.

It seems to me that most of these responses, such as the one I'm replying to, are missing the point of gameplay threads.

This is a discussion to take a look at how things SHOULD BE. Not how they ARE.

People seem to be going to odd lengths to justify the current situation when it is clearly... I repeat: CLEARLY... not how it should be.

Imagine the game doesn't exist and you're sitting at the drawing board coming up with skills for your characters.

Someone proposes a skill available at level 10 with ASTRONOMICALLY LOW PROBABILITY(there happy?) of it ever being aquirable at that level, and in 99.99% of cases it won't be availible until level 15.

Which do you tell the idea man:


A) GREAT IDEA, BILL, LETS DO IT!
B) Dude, don't you think thats a little off? Why not just make it a level 15 skill and put something people will actually get at level 10 as being the level 10 skill. BTW can I get some of that crack you're smoking.

***hint: answer B or you're so dumb your game will be garbage (not just from this, but you're dumb enough the rest of it will have to be aweful)



As someone pointed out this oddity is due to the fact that the skill is antiquated, back to when you COULD have defenses at 91% at any level. Is it SO MUCH to ask that people actually just say hey, you're right, this isn't kosher anymore.

And I find arguing for a change in gameplay is best done with accuracy and facts, rather than exaggerations, especially ones in all capitals.

How about we avoid splitting hairs over likely a tenth of a percent of anyone who would play shield dedication (likely less than this, unless they practice nearly nothing just specifically to get more chance at skillgains on block), and instead look at the issue at hand.

without intimate pre-existing knowledge of the deeper levels of gameplay, there is no way for a player to know about the pre-req.

More importantly, even assuming that knowledge was availible (IE: in the help file), it would take unrealistic amounts of effort to get the skill when it is presented. More likely it would actually take rerolling a character several times while practicing nearly nothing in order to do it.

Lastly, and I believe most importantly, this fix would be easy as ####. Swap two skills in the level order. Wow.

Was that accurate enough for you, or would you like to argue some more asinine points that have little to do with the purpose of the thread: making the game make SENSE.

the requirement to 80% and then state what the prerequisite is in the helpfile.

You seem to expect changes that guarantee that everyone will be able to get it at will at whatever level the skill is shown in your skill list.

You make the point that to have a chance of getting it, you would have to practice almost no skills. (That's wrong by the way, as you need a minimum number of skills to get skills on level gains.)

The point is, what's wrong if 99% of characters can't get it, but 1% get lucky? It's not enough to make it worth engineering, but it is the sort of thing that is very nice if it ever happens.

You'd be the same person complaining if you did get 90% from imm exp & level ups, but couldn't take the skill for another few levels.

It doesn't harm you that you can't get it for several levels 99.9% of the time. So why worry about it? It covers the rare cases where someone can.

Why? Because I'm in favor of intuitive gameplay.

Try for a moment to pretend that you've not been playing for 15 years and imagine coming across this as a newb, with absolutely no explanation in the help files, and no compensation to make the dedication look as good as the others.

Would you not just throw up your hands and assume the game made no sense?

But instead of declaring it impossible, I'd ask if it is possible.

Then when someone pointed out that it was, I'd ask how.

Then I would understand why it isn't the same as having the skill available at level 15 (although in 99% of cases, it is).

Instead, you were determined to say that there's a problem and disinterested in finding out anything you hadn't considered.

Just very very unlikely.

Unlikely? Why exactly? It seems perfectly reasonable and logical to me.

Better yet, lets give assassins assassinate and stalk at level 10 with the prerequisite that they must have 91% in mountain storm kick.

Sounds dumb, right?

getting shield block to 90 by level up/imm gains. Very unlikely but possible.

I think this was probably implemented during the era when you could spam up your defenses to perfect before level 15. You're probably on to something.