Why is it easier to conjure higher level angels than it is to conjure higher level demons? If you compare how much mana is required to conjure angels which are:

Perfect match
(forget the term)
Razor
Hooded

it's considerably less than what is required for demons. In fact, an evil conjurer with the same mana can summon an larger angel than demon.

I think this is a considerable problem because mob-level is incredibly important for determining how much damage the mob can inflict. The issue is compounded by the fact that higher level mobs are more difficult to parry / dodge / shield block... The more hits that get through defenses.. the quicker the fight. So in essence, there seems to be a disparity here. Was it intentional, and why?








This is just one small issue. I've already been over the others (my opinion fell on deaf ears). For my sake, here are the other complaints...
-Angels have more survivability
-Angels do more damage
-Angels have more useful specials
-Angels are more user-friendly

642/642hp <100%> 1074/1074mp <100%> <100%mv> 16817tnl (-5.11%) > indoor | none ca 'conjure angel' 900 A sudden blinding light eventually subsides, revealing a terrible angel! 642/642hp <100%> 74/1074mp <6%> <100%mv> 16817tnl (-5.11%) > indoor | none con angel whe Your best guess is that it is an angel. An ominous, hooded figure waits patiently nearby. A terrible angel is about the same size you are. It greets you warmly.

A hooded angel conjured by a level 36 for 900 mana. Conjuring a hooded demon (even with the edges) for 900 mana was a rare or impossible event. I only ever got hooded when I used 1200 mana. Ayalah was chaotic evil and had a hard time conjuring hooded demons.... Yet she could get hooded angels practically 100% of the time?

What have been your experiences, Rhaehen?

Well...it has been well over a year or two since I had a character that would conjure a demon, and I don't have the logs at hand right now to go back and compare calling demons vs. angels, but I know I called demons way more than angels because angels were harder for me to keep happy back then. Note that this was before edges as well.


I know with Rhaehen that the veil totally fuxxored my calling angels on high mana conjures and I almost always ended up with winged instead, and often con-ing at less than perfect match. Hearing your mana totals gives me some ideas on what might be wrong, especially with some other thigns you have posted but I would want to test it more before I spouted nonsence about it here.

I'll test if more in the future and let you know, possibly by PM if that is cool.

I can say now that of the times I went all out for a strong demon, I got hooded just like I would have if calling an angel. I haven't done it much yet, since the whole keeping them happy and not wanting them to buttrape me is still there, but I also haven't had much of a need to really go all out and pump out a strong one since even perfect match ones are right now brutalizing everything that gets in thier way.

I will say...the one that was ominous was used for ranking only, and OMG....it was impressive.

seriously is there any part of the class that you can refrain from griping about? if you take the conjuring edges it moves your sweet spot down so if your pumping the same amount of mana into the spells then your doing the overload for long term crappy servitors.

I found as an orderly evil conjie with the great evil servitors and super great demon edge i would get consistant hooded demons with like 400-500 mana, demons that were so strong i had trouble throwing enough mana to bind them sometimes.

keep in mind that angels have tiers and levels, demons only have levels.

1200 mana is prolly too much for conjuring anything.

Honestly, you really need to do one of two things here.

1) Stop playing the damned conjurer class. It's obviously causing your life misery.

2) Stop being so damned nitpicky over mechanics and just play your characters.

Have you ever considered that I am enjoying myself.

... and this is the gameplay forum? This is where mechanics are discussed. I'm not the only one who thinks angels > demons. I'm just the one pointing out some of the reasons.

I never ever got this nitpicky over any of this, christ.

If I was worried about another conjurer having a stronger angel than I did demon I'd switch to a devil and then dismiss the angel. No muss no fuss, if it fails, c word.

That's a nice idea. Here's what will most likely happen.

Conjurers generally use full mana loads into servitors which are going to be used for pvp. You will need almost full mana (in mana gear) to have a shot at dismissing the angel. Chances are very good that your dismissal will fail, and now you're tanking a high level angel for about two rounds with very little mana.

Your devil will cast maledictions on the angel. These maledictions have little or no effect. In fact, even if the maledictions did serve any purpose, the angel will shed them off anyway!

The good news is that you've got a/b/s up. That's great. What isn't so great is that you've got no offensive power, you're attacking a very hearty (and if it's an archangel) sanced mob who is rocking the hell out of you with a nasty wrath auto-attack and devastating specials (including wraths which track the wicked) and bash (which land great because of the level discrepency).

If you dump all of your mana and the angel isn't dismissed, you need to flee. This will piss your devil off. If you're hurt much, the devil canl kill you (and you've just used all of your mana into a dismissal). Being low on mana may also piss off your servitor (I think they see it as a sign of weakness).






No, your best bet is to use a huge demon and attack the other conjurer. You need to out-last them using despoil, a/b/s and resist positive. It's not a terrible fight because evil conjurers have the potential to have more health and dam redux... IBut you definately want a demon instead of a devil... and you want to be fully prepped!



For the goodie conjurer.. it's a much easier fight to win. Catch the evil conjurer without despoil, hurt them a little and watch their servitors do the rest. Hell! Just let your angel eat the devil/demon up a bit. It'll turn like that too!


Heh.

You're surprisingly confident for someone who doesn't really know what he's talking about. :P

You're ignoring the fact that there are edges that make it very easy to dispel servitors. I hope all that mana you put in the angel will make up the fact that you just completely failed to account for mana to anchor it.

You're taking the devil specifically for it to keep a/b/s up on you. With just the devil around you have as much or more damage reduction than the goodie conjurer coming after you even without knowing a/b/s, you just need some source of shield and prot vs. align, neither of which are terribly hard to put up in a heated combat situation, and more than likely you have stoneskin but let's pretend you're too afraid of the potentially nasty debuffs. There are still stoneskin a conjurer can get without the debuff problem.

Also, devils commune on entire groups. I didn't get into fights with other conjurers to know for sure but it's possible they hit the servitors and conjurer. Even if not, a devil communing on an angel can do some obscene damage just between unholy word and hellfire, probably more than the angel is doing to you because you have resist positive on top of all the dam redux listed above. You're also not getting bashed if you have a devil. Something you wouldn't know since you're too hellbent on using a demon.

Oh, also familiars can tank now, but you're too ####ing stupid to remember that's a viable tactic, up to and including hitting the angel so you don't have to tank it depending on the familiar in question. Then you hit the angel-wielding conjurer yourself. Sort of a square-peg-round-hole solution, but it's not likely to fail since the familiar isn't getting lagged. Familiar edges are the first edges every conjurer should take regardless of their familiar, something I learned the hard way.

And dismiss will work eventually, period. Even if it doesn't it's entirely likely you'll get away.

And let's not even talk about sending a gaunt when the goodie conjurer just finished conjuring a huge servitor and is sleeping to bind it. The evil conjurer is way more likely to end this hypothetical matchup before it even begins like this, with no edges, than what you're complaining about.


This isn't even accounting for either lash or the exotic skills both conjurers may or may not have perfected. Batter and swing change the dynamics dramatically if your character is 200+ hours old.

...of being an AP or Necro, unprepared, against a Terrible Angel, I'd typically always rather go against one of them than a damned demon. Rethink this!

You don't know what you're talking about. For example, the terrible angel isn't even the best of angels.

I'm sure a lot has changed over the years, but I still have a scar on my pride from when my nearly-2k-hp master necro was two-rounded by a terrible angel that was sitting on the aryth ocean unbound.

Being an arial didn't help.


Still, angels are bitches compared to demons. I've fought both, a lot.

Although I haven't tried playing an evil conjurer before, I have played quite a few goodie conjurers. From my observations, Conjuration power levels are as follows:

MANA LEVEL
900+ Lesser Archangel/Transplendant Archon
600+ Terrible Angel/Radiant Archon
400+ Radiant Angel/Blazing Archon
Less Winged Angel/Luminous Archon

With that in mind, there are other factors involved. In a previous post from Daevren, he mentioned that when you put extra mana into a conjuration, it either goes all to increasing the level of NPC, OR all goes into increasing duration. Other factors to consider are:

Density of the Veil:
A thick veil drains away the extra mana you put into conjuring, so a 600 mana conjuration might only contribute 500 mana, and result in a radiant angel instead of a terrible angel, while a thin veil contributes extra mana. So an 800 mana conjuration might result in a lesser archangel instead of a terrible angel.

Remaining factors to consider:
Conjurer's level
Conjurer's Charisma
Conjurer's alignment vs. alingment of NPC
Conjurer's ethos vs. ethos of NPC


Based on what I've seen from watching other people play neutral or evil conjurer and conjuring demons and devils, I would say all these factors are equal across the board (only differnce being that the CLASS of demon conjured is not based on mana output, whereas the class of angel conjured IS based on mana output).

>Although I haven't tried playing an evil conjurer before, I
>have played quite a few goodie conjurers. From my
>observations, Conjuration power levels are as follows:
>
>MANA LEVEL
>900+ Lesser Archangel/Transplendant Archon
>600+ Terrible Angel/Radiant Archon
>400+ Radiant Angel/Blazing Archon
>Less Winged Angel/Luminous Archon
>
>With that in mind, there are other factors involved. In a
>previous post from Daevren, he mentioned that when you put
>extra mana into a conjuration, it either goes all to
>increasing the level of NPC, OR all goes into increasing
>duration. Other factors to consider are:
>
>Density of the Veil:
>A thick veil drains away the extra mana you put into
>conjuring, so a 600 mana conjuration might only contribute 500
>mana, and result in a radiant angel instead of a terrible
>angel, while a thin veil contributes extra mana. So an 800
>mana conjuration might result in a lesser archangel instead of
>a terrible angel.
>
>Remaining factors to consider:
>Conjurer's level
>Conjurer's Charisma
>Conjurer's alignment vs. alingment of NPC
>Conjurer's ethos vs. ethos of NPC
>
>
>Based on what I've seen from watching other people play
>neutral or evil conjurer and conjuring demons and devils, I
>would say all these factors are equal across the board (only
>differnce being that the CLASS of demon conjured is not based
>on mana output, whereas the class of angel conjured IS based
>on mana output).
>

Everything the same, I feel like it's easier to conjure a high level angel.

You're wrong. Nothing else really to say.

>You're wrong. Nothing else really to say.


Make a level 27 evil conjurer. Put 300 mana into conjuring a demon or angel. The angel tends to be higher level when considered.

This is my observation.