Starting a thread to keep initial questions about Monks and Champions together.

None of the Champion skills do any real damage. Even the most defensive of the dedications has Angelswing and Flank attack, while their melee is improved with shield jab.

Sure, Champions can utilize Charge and Pugil better than the other dedicants. But do you think that alone balances them out? It seems like something is missing.

Don't get me wrong, all of their skills seem pretty unique and fun. It just seems like maybe they need another. As it is, it seems like for 1 on 1 PK, they'll turn into Wrath machines even worse than shield deds.

I mean, Maneuver will have uses in certain specific situations, sure. But fend and bat both seem useless in PK, and Marshal seems more like a group vs group skill. So that leaves.. pugil or wrath. Pugil is nice for ranking and killing mobs, but it's 2 round lag and damage is nothing special. Wrath will be the better bet more often than not, but everyone hates a wrath spamming paladin.

If a defender paladin wants to put out straight damage against someone evil, wrath will almost always outdamage angel's wing or flank attack. Those skills aren't any faster than pugil and their damage is in the same neighborhood as pugil.

So there I see champions as being in a similar boat to another defensively-themed spec. I wouldn't write fend or bat off completely either, though they aren't necessarily pure damage options.

Angelswing effectively cuts their enemy melee damage in half (2 round skill, blocks 1 full round of melee). Plus, depending weapon it has some other nifty effects that can make it worth using every now and then.

Pugil is.. damage. Nothing else.

Now, I could be wrong since I haven't really played one yet. It just struck me as odd that they were the only paladin dedicate that didn't have any unique skills that actually did damage.

But if ya'll think it's balanced as is, I guess we'll wait and see what a few folks can do with the current skillset.

>Pugil is.. damage. Nothing else.

Help pugil. :)

nt

Champions have the worst offense of every other paladin (I'm guessing on monks, cause I haven't played with them personally.. but I did rank with a couple with 2 different chars and they seemed to have much more upside).

They have a tweaked pugil, and a tweaked charge. Those are cool, but in a PK they don't really amount to that much. Every other paladin has an option I would prefer, when wrath spam isn't the answer.

Champions also have the worst melee defense of every other paladin. They might be on even terms with a 2-hander, but having played them they still seem to parry better than polearms/staffs. Maybe that was just bad luck on my part, but it wasn't bad luck that the paladin in general sucked at tanking anything. Even perfect match mobs.

They have parry, and that's it. Distance/spin are cool in theory, but in practice it doesn't seem like the boost does enough for them. At all.

I don't know how you can call them a defensive dedication when they start with truly lousy melee defense.

For ranking, and 1 on 1 PKs, fend doesn't seem much better than feint. Sure, you get an extra hit now and then. But that hit can be parried/dodged. And since fend only blocks 1 swing (per mob/PC that's aiming at you, granted) it doesn't do enough to turn a lousy tank into a decent one.

Bat seems cool, but it won't ever be a crucial element in a fight.

Maneuver and marshall are nifty as utility type skills, but again, in a 1 on 1 fight they probably won't come into play very often.


Overall, they seem hugely underpowered compared to at least shield/2hand pallys of the past, and from my 3rd person observations, even monks.

What exactly do you envision in the class that balances them out? Because I'm completely at a loss for it. I literally can't point to a single strength in this choice, over the other 3 options.

I really have to agree. It seems odd that a defensive dedication would have, well, rather pedestrian defensive abilities. But who knows, maybe you auto-fend once fend is perfected? Maybe distance/spin fire a lot with this build? Maybe a set of edges makes this even out (there are no edges for the new dedications per se)? I look forward to seeing some logs once the next batch of paladins levels up and to progressing with my own monk as well.

Help bat

This does not quite get at what Java hit on but is certainly a unique defensive ability.

Can we let humans and halfies pick primary stats for paladins now?

Can a monk use anoint weapon on their hands?

There's a reason monks get more skills than the other dedicates -- it's because fighting with your hands means forgoing a lot of standard skills.

Show up in your affects list? (also when you use it while asleep, you don't get a pecho but it still activates/deactivates)

Can it give a small bonus to dex? +2 dex or something?

1) Just FYI, Dedicate helpfile refers to "monk dedication" and "champion dedication", but that doesn't actually work. Help monk, help champion, help hand dedication, help <staff or polearm> dedication are the only options that do.

2) The Champion dedication comments about having improved success with generally all staff/polearm skills, but does not mention slice. It work better and was forgotten to be mentioned, or just no improvement?

3) Fend helpfile reminded me of thrust somewhat while reading...re-reading the thrust helpfile, made me think (in general) why wouldn't it be functional with a staff as well? Less damaging, but you'd think still doable. In specific, I assume paladins don't get the skill do to it primarily being a spear attack vs. polearm attack?

Definately have more questions, but in the spirit of things, probably ones best suited to learning by trying the sub-classes, rather than spoon-feeding.

>1) Just FYI, Dedicate helpfile refers to "monk dedication"
>and "champion dedication", but that doesn't actually work.
>Help monk, help champion, help hand dedication, help <staff or
>polearm> dedication are the only options that do.

Okay, I'll play around with that a little.

>2) The Champion dedication comments about having improved
>success with generally all staff/polearm skills, but does not
>mention slice. It work better and was forgotten to be
>mentioned, or just no improvement?

Valg's notes that I was working from in writing that helpfile mention those specific skills, and examining slice, that's correct -- it is not improved for champions. That being said, it works pretty well for paladins in general.

If I can find time today I'll try to update the pugil and charge helpfiles with some specifics about how they're different.

>3) Fend helpfile reminded me of thrust somewhat while
>reading...re-reading the thrust helpfile, made me think (in
>general) why wouldn't it be functional with a staff as well?
>Less damaging, but you'd think still doable. In specific, I
>assume paladins don't get the skill do to it primarily being a
>spear attack vs. polearm attack?

That's my understanding of why that choice was made.

I know this could be too soon yet, but was there or is there consideration for monks learning dual wield for only their hand use? (I would imagine if that were possible, there could be a code so that they still couldn't use weapons to prevent that abuse)

Or maybe their skills down the road help in that regard?

How about a selectable primary stat for humans and halfies?

I'd always wanted a way to play a monk without having to fit it into a warrior or assassin's build and gladly invite the challenge to play a good aligned character as such.

Right now though I think it might be fun to learn what happens on the other side of the fence when fighting AGAINST these classes than I I think i would be to actually play one and figure it out for myself. My next character after my current will almost for sure be a paladin, however.

I love the changes you guys have made (even if ancestral curse did screw over Rouqwet a lil bit lol) and continue to make, and have the utmost respect for the staff for the keeping the game fresh and interesting. I see CF only going to bigger and better places in the future. Anybody who disagrees can suck a ####.

Long live Carrion Fields.

Monks make no mention of parrying with their hands - will they be parrying like the other hand-to-hand classes?

Giants seem to be losing out on some of the power gained in the new classes, although I'm aware their size helps with distance, is there any advantage beyond physical resist that is going to make them shine in either role over an elf? Like more natural damage with their hands? Or more brutal attack skills?

Will fortitude/temperance supplications mess with the offense/defense of these monks/champions to the same degree they do with shield/two-handed deds? What about veterans insight, and non-parry skills?

Avoid looks like 'mystic dodge', so will things like the wolf-kin cloak enhance it? You mention dodge crippling skills work, but obvious -dex skills have less effect. So will quicken/haste boost it as greatly as dodge?

Sorry for the myriad of questions, there's just a lot of new mechanics to understand behind all these skills. I'm sure you guys will balance things up fine but it's nice to have an idea of what's going to be at least fair and what is going to plain suck in race/dedication combos. What's your general feel on the three main race choices - storm, elf and human - and these two new dedications?

>Monks make no mention of parrying with their hands - will
>they be parrying like the other hand-to-hand classes?

No; however, see the helpfile on Avoid. Actually, I see you mention it below.

>Giants seem to be losing out on some of the power gained in
>the new classes, although I'm aware their size helps with
>distance, is there any advantage beyond physical resist that
>is going to make them shine in either role over an elf? Like
>more natural damage with their hands? Or more brutal attack
>skills?

I don't think so, although, I honestly still think storm paladin is pretty great even for even of these. Some of them have wis-dependent skills, but I don't think that's much worse than, say, the benefits a two-hand paladin gets from a high dex, which a storm giant also doesn't especially have.

To put it another way, I think storm defender is pretty great, and if you're any of the three dedicates which probably will get hit a bit more, I think the storm package of solid con + size + great resistances/vulns/immunties package is really compelling.

>Will fortitude/temperance supplications mess with the
>offense/defense of these monks/champions to the same degree
>they do with shield/two-handed deds?

Yup.

>What about veterans
>insight, and non-parry skills?

It's not useful for spin/distance, though Champions still parry of course. I don't know if it's a factor in avoid or not.

>Avoid looks like 'mystic dodge', so will things like the
>wolf-kin cloak enhance it?

Nope.

>You mention dodge crippling skills
>work, but obvious -dex skills have less effect.

Yep. They care about things like dex and weight, but not to the degree that dodge cares about them.

>So will
>quicken/haste boost it as greatly as dodge?

I don't know about as greatly, but it's helpful.

>Sorry for the myriad of questions, there's just a lot of new
>mechanics to understand behind all these skills. I'm sure you
>guys will balance things up fine but it's nice to have an idea
>of what's going to be at least fair and what is going to plain
>suck in race/dedication combos. What's your general feel on
>the three main race choices - storm, elf and human - and these
>two new dedications?

Hey, don't forget about dwarves!

I think all of those are decent choices for all three for different reasons. For example, I think I'd expect to see less giants for monks because as great as the general goodness of storm giant feels for them, I think they'll also be very mana intensive and my storm paladins have always struggled much more with mana than my humans and elves. Conversely, while the elf has good dex/wisdom and tends to recover mana the fastest, you've also got swiftstrike wasted since you won't parry, and I don't know if all of that makes up for the lower HP / high penalty / iron vuln for me. Human feels pretty great as a low-penalty balance between the two.

Champions I'd expect to skew more towards storm/human over elf, but that's more a gut feeling at the moment than anything concrete. Certainly the elf's good wisdom/charisma serves them well there.

That Elves would shine as Champions, and Storms as monks. I'm really curious how decent avoid will work though, considering that is 100% of the defense of a Monk now (assuming they're using their hand to hand goodness).

Will avoid be a kind of uber-defense, or is it comparable to that Paladin just having dodge now (as opposed to parry/shield block)? Cause for an Elf, that sounds like a recipe for a real quick beatdown.

It's pretty good, but it also burns mana to use. Granted, crusade can be a help there, but in my experience storm paladins have always struggled with mana in such a bad way compared to even, say, dwarf paladins. Having to burn mana just to not get hit by everyone as one sounds painful. On the other hand, maybe it'll turn out that the storm monk is an awesome tank in a lot of situations and just doesn't have a lot of staying power since he burns his candle at both ends.

In some ways it's superior to, say, using parry and shield block. In other ways it's probably inferior. How it'll shake out is hard to gauge at this point.

Just remembered that both unarmed def and ironhands decrease the chance of each being parried, as that was always a huge disadvantage to hand-to-hand. Does this go for monks in some way too? Or is it included in a skill I'm not noticing right now?

Also, anticipate looks crazily awesome. That's going to drive some people insane :D

In general I think they're parried normally.

Although, you might have missed something about transcend.

nt

nt

Granted, it's one of the most badass weapons in the game. And only Paladins can use it. But a Paladin shouldn't be THAT intent on finding it, really. Especially considering how many people die on the average Defiance attempt.

I have never been able to really capitalize on getting defiance because to do so just seems so ill focused. Probably something I should throw out the window to acquire, but wish there was a way that Defiance could seek out an individual instead...

... unfortunately, that would be a ####storm on the boards I imagine.

.