It seems that good old days of permalag-bearcharge came back.
We see cloud giant rangers bearcharging 5 ragers in a row to death, but what is even funnier, we see a human ranger doing the same (enlarged).
Is is supposed to be this way? Even one-size difference made it lethal for a victim. Normally, you can't really be prepared for a ranger all the time (because you can see him), so the only realistic way to avoid permalag is to stay #### out of woods...
This is probably a gameplay issue. And soon it will be a wide knowledge which of ranger subclasses can do that effectively.
May it be discussed/reconsidered/explained? }(

Insert whine here.

Nepenthe's reply was 'Bearcharge has always been that good.'

Now it's just becoming obvious that mountaineer and beastmaster have nothing to do with it. Turns out he was right.

A side-effect of this means that cloud giant just officially became the best race for ranger bar-none (seeing as how fire giants are nerfed to hell, either you take bedouin, or caverndweller, both blow ass at bearcharge or don't get it, or you play evil human/felar) until you run into folks with bash protection and/or concealed (plus edges plus a decently high skill percentage) and rangers still have the tools to deal with concealed when snare is in play.

Now let's just see if bearcharge goes through the same phase and tweaking that Crashing did. (where either it fires less often period now, or the opposing str check was fixed.)

Let's be honest, the way Bearcharge is currently, you can have greeting the avalanche at 36, and add in whispers for good measure starting at 22, all provided you catch your opponent in the forest. This gets easier and easier to do the higher in level you get, so long as you prey on ranking groups and people farming preps, as well as people dumb enough to keep walking through wilderness spots when perfectly fine alternate routes are available. Add in the easiness of practicing talismans and wilderness fam (especially wild fam relative to other defenses) and voila. Ragers are especially hit hard by this perfect storm of ownage because they have no counters for it and every conceivable ranger can swat away deathblows with ease unless they really #### up. Savages get mace as a weapon skill, making life harder for the current crop of ragers once the playerbase figures out how to stop gearing for metal items or more Outlander and Nexan druids pop up.

The imms will have to be very careful with what happens with this in how it gets tweaked because savages and beastmasters really *have* nothing else, they'll end up as bad as hunters or animists neither of which really have any way of keeping folks from fleeing after the initial ambush and snare lag wears off. Aimed shot torso/head still misses like a mofo no matter what and logs show it.

Hard counters for this are enlarge, potentially Greeting the Avalanche, potentially chargeset, concealed, and bash protection classes.

That all being said, it's not like the Rager cabal didn't sorely need the assbeating it's getting from the permalaggers avoiding DB prepless with the numbers it has.

Come to think of it wood-elf dagger would have a ball today... but I doubt most folks have the finesse or desire to play Firhindil 2.0 with a TAN!!!11

You probably shouldn't post. You're kind of like Ahtieli without the subtlety. :)

.

.

Bard Repertoire Clarifications:
http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=23735&mesg_id=23735&page=

That the imms knew what they were doing when they prevented cloud giants from choosing the explorer expertise.

I think it is balanced as is for every ranger build except maybe cloud mountain/beast. I would not want to face that dude in the mountains as a melee class.

>It seems that good old days of permalag-bearcharge came
>back.

They were never gone. :P

One size difference isn't a death sentence (though it can kill you sometimes, just as bash can.) Two is pretty hard to deal with.

And, of course, I like others defer to you on game mechanics issues like this.

But that said, I played a(n enlarged) cloud ranger for almost 1000 hours and I never got the results neo-rangers are getting with respect to bearcharge. The most lag I'd get out of it was trip. I could post a couple logs where you can see I'm only getting 1.9 rounds lag, but that doesn't prove anything either (except there aren't any logs where I'm perma-lagging someone 2 sizes or more smaller than I).

Can you help reconcile my experiences with what you're describing?

I played probably 6 or 8 rangers that all got to hero range before the revamp and bearcharge was always a beast. Always.

I've had 2 since the revamp and the arial mountaineer constantly lagged people longer than it lagged me. Constantly.

:)

Bearcharge has always been one of the deadliest skills in the game.

OK. This part I agree with (neo, post-revamp rangers often permalag with bearcharge):

>I've had 2 since the revamp and the arial mountaineer
>constantly lagged people longer than it lagged me.
>Constantly.




But this part, I think I need to see a couple logs of a PRE-revamp ranger actually permalagging someone two sizes smaller than them:

>I played probably 6 or 8 rangers that all got to hero range
>before the revamp and bearcharge was always a beast. Always.
>


Like I said, I can point to a bunch of logs showing pre-revamp bearcharge on someone 2 sizes smaller is 1.9 rounds, max (starring my own rangers). But no proof that it often resulted in permalag. If you can point out a few logs demonstrating that bearcharge was always as powerful as it is now, I'd be overly satisfied!

Waaaaay before revamp. He played a gnome invoker master named Diarmuid and was getting wtf pwned by bearcharge permalag all over the place and bitching about how OP it was...and it was never changed.

I was a lone cloud rager ranger (pre-village specs) and I also defended against 4 masters and 3 imperials and only Zomersies survived and he only just got away. Bearcharge, Bloodthirst and a 82 132 hit dam with dualwielding axes!

-----Abernyte

P.S. Then a few of them worked out shield of earth's validity :<

It's too easy to permalag people into oblivion. Rangers get to pick when they fight so it makes all those matchups too one sided. I'd rather see them lose bearcharge completely and just give them bash.

Cheers,
Jhyrb