I've been playing conjurers forever and I've analyzed my failings with the class and come to a number of conclusions. These generalities have allowed me to make better and better conjurers with every attempt, but I've always fallen short of what I feel is acceptable.


What I term as acceptable is the ability to play the class without killing myself. That's all I want. If this were possible, for anyone, I think the class would be much more popular. So here's the problem: Why can't I stay alive?

When I'm ranking it seems easy to keep servitor morale up: I'm killing challenging mobs at a regular rate, I'm not getting hurt and I'm not fleeing.

In PvP the majority of time is spent looking for a target. From what I've seen, if you're pvping, the servitor steadily loses morale for three reasons: because it's not killing / consuming. You're taking damage, and you're fleeing.

I think the class is too challenging because the -morale actions far outweigh the +morale actions. I think everyone agrees that it's normal for a PC to flee, get hurt and hunt. I don't think anyone could argue that these actions should spell out certain death for conjurers. The only rationale I've heard is that it's in the "RP" of demons to betray... Is it appropriate to argue "RP" when talking about gameplay? I think fun trumps believability.

All of this when there's no informational feedback to the conjurer. There are no numbers, no descriptions and no HINTS as to when or where +morale or -morale happens. The only information we have is that two demons loot items, and two demons eat corpses. As a player it is impossible to know for certain if these actions actually coincide with +morale. There are dozens of unanswered questions...

How does a demon lose morale?
*** if I flee?
*** if I am hurt?
*** if it gets hurt?
*** if a tick happens?
*** if I'm low on mana?
*** if it's in a certain environment?
How does a demon gain morale?
***How do mors-gravis demons gain morale?
***Does the level of the mob I'm killing effect morale gains?
***Do demons lose morale for fighting evil mobs?
***Does level of wand / weapon matter for harmentia and morosa +morale?
How much morale does a demon lose for every negative morale action?
***How much for fleeing?
***How much for getting hurt?
***How much for idling?
How much morale does a demon gain for every positive morale action?
***How much per corpse?
***How much per looted item?
***How much per mob kill?
At what morale point does a demon turn?
***Does it depend on outside factors like my health and mana?
***Does it depend on my binding?
How do we know what morale a demon is at?


Finally, just to reiterate my request.. I want to use demons without dying to them. Would this imply that I spend every waking tick killing difficult mobs of the opposite alignment without fleeing and without taking damage while allowing my demon to loot wands or weapons? Is that seriously what we're expected to do on TOP of all of the other #### hoops?

TLDR version:
This class is complicated balance-wise. It's my opinion that the +morale and -morale mechanic for demons is out of whack, and players aren't given enough feedback about their servitors.

Demons don't like it when you #### around and they aren't seeing action. Demons don't like it when you show weakness by fleeing. Demons (well, all or near all servitors) don't like to be very hurt.

This is all you really need to know to have a good run with demons. If that's not satisfying to you personally, play a different class. :)

>This is all you really need to know to have a good run with
>demons. If that's not satisfying to you personally, play a
>different class. :)

This is an insufficient explanation, because I can come up with many many many counterexamples where demons act contrary...

For example: why are demons killing me when they're summoned (happy), kill hoards of high level mobs (eating every corpse), and never once getting touched (and me never once fleeing). I have 23 charisma and Student of Vice. The mobs we were killing were evil.

You asked, I answered, you don't like or don't believe my answer.

That's fine, but I may refer you back to this the next time you post a question and everyone ignores it.

Alright, I'll trust you. Let's see what happens.

Okay, having just played (and deleted) an evil conjurer who used a lot of demons...here are my questions:

1. If a demon arrives "mad" (i.e. strains against the circle) is it guaranteed that he'll attack you when the binding wears off, or can he be made "happy enough" during the bound period that he'll just stop following you or return to the abyss once the binding expires?

2. If a demon does not arrive "mad", is it guaranteed that he will not attack you once the binding wears off? Or can he be made sufficiently pissy during the bound period that he'll jump you once he's not magically prevented from doing so?

2. When you say "seeing action", does level of the mob matter? Alignment of the mob? Does the mob actually have to die, or does the demon's morale improve just from beating on it?

3. For demons that do "special things" (e.g. eat corpses, loot weapons, loot magical items), are they made "especially happy" by doing these things over and above the boost they get just from "seeing action"?

Side question:

Is it a new thing that one can conjure elementals/demons that consider at less than "perfect match"? The last conjurer I played before this one was a goodie, and I don't recall ever getting a servitor that considered at less than "perfect match". Is this a function of the veil?

Overall thoughts on lowbie conjie pk:

Total feast or famine. There were some fights where I absolutely destroyed people, and some fights where I got absolutely destroyed. I found that the margin of error on a level 27 non-decked mage without any damage reduction was too narrow for someone of my skill to manage.

These are questions I have as well.

>1. If a demon arrives "mad" (i.e. strains against the circle)
>is it guaranteed that he'll attack you when the binding
>wears off, or can he be made "happy enough" during the bound
>period that he'll just stop following you or return to the
>abyss once the binding expires?

He can be made happy enough to just go home.

>2. If a demon does not arrive "mad", is it guaranteed
>that he will not attack you once the binding wears off?
> Or can he be made sufficiently pissy during the bound period
>that he'll jump you once he's not magically prevented from
>doing so?

He can be made angry enough to not just go home.

>2. When you say "seeing action", does level of the mob matter?
> Alignment of the mob? Does the mob actually have to die, or
>does the demon's morale improve just from beating on it?

Demons are made most happy by attacking the stuff they like to auto-attack, which varies by demon type.

For various reasons high level stuff that dies is probably best, but some kind of fighting is better than just sitting around.

>3. For demons that do "special things" (e.g. eat corpses, loot
>weapons, loot magical items), are they made "especially happy"
>by doing these things over and above the boost they get just
>from "seeing action"?

Doing their stuff makes them happier.

>Side question:
>
>Is it a new thing that one can conjure elementals/demons that
>consider at less than "perfect match"? The last
>conjurer I played before this one was a goodie, and I don't
>recall ever getting a servitor that considered at less
>than "perfect match". Is this a function of the veil?

The answer to that last question is yes, which hopefully answers the rest.

Okay, having just played (and deleted) an evil conjurer who used a lot of demons...here are my questions:

My response is based on playing a conjurer with 23 charisma, less than that will affect durations on servitors and other mood-related things.

1. If a demon arrives "mad" (i.e. strains against the circle) is it guaranteed that he'll attack you when the binding wears off, or can he be made "happy enough" during the bound period that he'll just stop following you or return to the abyss once the binding expires?

It is guaranteed to attack you after the binding wears off. If you put nothing extra into the summoning, then the window will only be a half second or so before it returns to the abyss.

2. If a demon does not arrive "mad", is it guaranteed that he will not attack you once the binding wears off? Or can he be made sufficiently pissy during the bound period that he'll jump you once he's not magically prevented from doing so?

If it does not arrive "mad", it can still turn "mad" by sitting around, running around with low health, it taking too much of a beating, or you not pleasing it in the manner that the demon requires.

2. When you say "seeing action", does level of the mob matter? Alignment of the mob? Does the mob actually have to die, or does the demon's morale improve just from beating on it?

This question really doesn't apply.. "seeing action" is somewhat of a poor explanation that I wouldn't give more than a few cents credit to.

The only case where this applies solely is to the mors-gravis demon (which I tend to refrain from calling, unless I feel like going kamakazee).

All other demons have noticeable habits that "please" them. The level of mobs, equipment make a difference but it doesn't mean you cannot please a demon that eats corpses happy by going on a darsylon killing spree.

3. For demons that do "special things" (e.g. eat corpses, loot weapons, loot magical items), are they made "especially happy" by doing these things over and above the boost they get just from "seeing action"?

See my previous response.. I wouldn't really worry about this "seeing action" crap. hehe

Side question:

Is it a new thing that one can conjure elementals/demons that consider at less than "perfect match"? The last conjurer I played before this one was a goodie, and I don't recall ever getting a servitor that considered at less than "perfect match". Is this a function of the veil?

This is a function of the veil, basically.

Overall thoughts on lowbie conjie pk:

Total feast or famine. There were some fights where I absolutely destroyed people, and some fights where I got absolutely destroyed. I found that the margin of error on a level 27 non-decked mage without any damage reduction was too narrow for someone of my skill to manage.

Well, by 27 you can at least start using some protection vs good preps, and even some aura. If you have a grabbing familiar, you could potentially have some stone skin.

The concept is that at level 27, if you have a low pk range, you can be knocking warriors around that really don't have much in the way of defense, and your demons will own them.

Put a bit more extra mana on binding than you put on summoning the thing. That should keep the bind long enough for the servitor to disappear before the bindings are broken.

But hopefully Daevryn can correct me if I'm wrong.

Depending on the scenario, more mana on the bind might save you or it might not.

If I was allowed to read the morale code so that I knew what the rules of this class were...I'd be all set.

As is, we're expected to discover the rules of the class. It's analagous to discovering the nature of the atom... Except this is a game, and I'm no Rutherford or Thompson.

Too many variables. Not enough data! = no good conclusion.

How about a comprehensive description of the morale code in a helpfile?

as long as you get through the binding process without them going ape #### you should have no problem at all controlling all but the mors-gravis demon. The real tricky ones are devils since if they aren't happy they don't add a lot to the fight which just makes it harder to get them goin again.

The expectation that you need tro engage against tough enemies is where your logic is flawed when it comes to demons, they just love them some mindless destruction and ripping the arms off of a little girl is just as satisfying as knee capping a giant to them as long as they are inflicting suffering.

Demons are happy killing low level mobs? Can you prove this?

The more I read your posts the more I feel like you have played tons of conjies with a blindfold on. three types of demons it certainly works for. Demons are really as easy to manage as a goodie manages an archon or angel as long as you get through the initial bind without failing twice.

What you are saying is contrary to observations which can be reproduced. Who is wearing the blind-fold?

As a player I tend to be hunting virtually the entire time i am logged in. That means that as soon as I conjure I feed my demons, ie go to goblin village and let them grab up a dozen weapons or eat a village full of corpses, this takes like 2 ticks, you can even have your familiar do it while your conjuring and just walk through after. Then as you are teleporting around anytime you land near a weak mob that might please your demon take the half second and off them. In this way your always making mr demon happy. I don't sit around for any longer then it takes me to heal up so in that way I always kept my demons happy just constantly feeding them low level stuff.

Now devils were the tricky part, if I could gear up over 1k hp it wasn't a big deal but under that and the ratio of resting to fighting just made them difficult to manage for me and keep hunting.

so at the end of the day if you don't want your demons to be mad feed them. Feed them often, like every couple of ticks and you will be fine.

I had a tribunal conjurer who used almost exclusively demons (and having both the demon conjuring edges was sooooooooo nasty to get hooded demons with only 400 mana in conjuration) aside from when they got super pissed due to failed bindings i had a demon turn on me once ever so there you have it. (devils on the other hand did not fit my hit and go tactics and ice devils were almost a sure death sentance for me)