I have been playing with Defense Shifters for some time, I have heroed about 4 and played about 17. After that, I pose the following questions:

1. Why is it that we are suppose to specialize in defense, and our first and second form can barely take blows at all?

2. Spin off from first question, how come we have stupid horrible forms like Armadillo as a 4th tier form? I mean seriously, it is horrible. Same for tortoise for third tier, horrible.

Reason why Armadillo is horrible
A. You can't harm something while retracted, which is where you get the most defense and even then, HITS add up and very quick when ranking or fighting just about anyone.

B. It has a low ARMOR Class, almost as much as my third tier sand lizard or hare, or toirtose.

C. No regenerate, not even Minor or Major Regeneration.

D. Basically it is a form that cannot be true defensive unless you are with others.

* I would espect more from a final form, also the Armadillo is not the only one.

I do not mean to come off as bitching, but these are things that have always bugged me.

I had dillo/ram with my Scion Advisor, Ilrahsek, and pwned with it.

Also, Krivohan (an Advisor around Urden's heyday) had dillo/lion and was even more devastating with it.

Mind you, this is PRIOR to all the nifty boosts the class got, and I still liked it.

That really REALLY wanted the armadillo. She ended up with the porcupine, and almost deleted because of it.

The armadillo gave her what she was hoping for out of a defensive form. She wanted to be truly, 100% defensive. The porcupine is a great form, but it wasn't what she was hoping for.

The point? The armadillo is useful, there are players out there that like it. Will it ever kill anyone solo? Of course not. But if you're picking a defensive form because you want to be a solo-PK monster, well... good luck.

I'm really curious what you actually expect out of a defensive form though, because I don't think you've actually said it yet. It's a defensive form. So what are you hoping for?

This thread has made me consider declaring an 'armadillo day', in which anyone who rolled up a defense shifter could pray and be guaranteed armadillo as their last defense form, just to see what the response would be.

How easy is it to do that with the way code is written now?

If the answer is very, would you consider it a reward available for, let's say, a shifter who wrote a role around their lifelong aspirations and struggles to obtain X form, and then RP'ed it to the max their whole life? I imagine this being similar in difficulty to getting a race or class change, in that it's something that COULD be done, but isn't necessarily going to.

It's fairly easy to set a new/different form on a shifter -- this is how quest forms are awarded, for example.

If the answer is very, would you consider it a reward available for, let's say, a shifter who wrote a role around their lifelong aspirations and struggles to obtain X form, and then RP'ed it to the max their whole life?

Sure. I've done something along these lines before.

Your chances are better if:

A) I really believe you want X form because it fits your role and not because X is the best form and

B) You're on this early in life and not waiting to see what form you get first.

In the past I've only done this for characters who potentially could have drawn the form they were looking for -- that is to say, I've never given out armadillo to an offense/water shifter.

I also don't think I've done this since the days when there were basically only 2-3 final forms for each foci. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it now, but it was easier to sell me on this back when, for example, you were a water shifter, you really wanted manta ray, you were putting a ton of RP and effort into it, and really you had about a half and half chance of already having drawn manta ray. (I want to say the last couple times someone came to me for something like this, they had in fact already drawn the form they were hoping for.)

In the modern age, factor into all of this that I'm kind of a on-again-off-again deadbeat dad if you're hoping for intervention from me specifically. You might hit a week when I'm playing a lot; you might hit a week where I'm working a lot and don't have the time or energy to play.

I did this with Padwei, actually.

.

I ended up with the polar bear I think it was for my third tier defense form. It was alright, reduced damage and dished out a little. But it couldn't tank without a bard or healer there to keep it alive. Makes it a very pointless form for being ...defensive.

I think my last form was the Pachyderm. Once again, good damage reduction and a little bit of damage output, but couldn't do #### unless I had a bard or healer there to keep me alive. Didn't matter who I had with me to dish out damage while ranking, these forms remained utterly useless and I more often relied on my utility forms to make me any use to groups.

Is for the lower tier pure damage redux based defensive forms. These forms are not exactly stellar at mob killing, could either their damage output be beefed up a lil (not the wombat), or perhaps give them like a 50hp form bonus at the lower ranks hp gear is not as easy to come across beside the cloaks of desert fun.

also the tortoise should really be amphibious even if it has to use a draw breath like skill.

Turtles, sure. Tortoises aren't amphibious at all :P

Response pulled from the Shifter board when someone was complaining about anaconda, that works perfectly for this conversation.


If you are dreading getting forms with no attacks, why do you pick defense? I'd say the one focus that is definitely a support class is defense. Defense forms (especially the majors) aren't really intended to kill much of anything, hence the massive defensive abilities. Your complaints about the one way anacondas have to win a fight ties in here. They were never intended to run around killing any/everything. I don't see how whittling your opponent down for 30 minutes is that much better than not being able to kill them at all. Why not grab one or two allies and kill them in 5? Defense shifters probably get about as many kills as a healer...and I'm fine with that.

I'm well aware I managed to misinterpret what a final defense form was supposed to be all about.

No need to rub it in.

I've seen some really successful-in-PK defensive shifters, even ones whose success was in no small part because they were defensive shifters, but the key is: they also had another focus, and knew when to use both.

For example: big group vs. group raid or fight. They go in as an armadillo and try to tank, re-"grabbing" some opponents with intercept. Then once everyone's doing a pretty good job of focusing on people they can actually hurt, they're a ram and picking off the weakest guy.

Or: They charge someone as ram and pick a fight that isn't particularly smart. It starts going bad, they turn into an armadillo, and easily escape. Eventually, they pull something like this and catch their enemy at just the right moment that they get a kill instead of having to run away.

Case in point: current porcu-lion-o-pine.

First of all The Immortals whom replied to this is Full of ####, with all do respect. This was the reason I left my old mud, immortals cannot take criticism and too busy trying to justify #### up things. I never said I wanted defense to be able to kill thing, those are your words. Secondly, Armadillo sucks ass and everyone knows except for the Immortals for some reason. If three players and NO not IMMORTAL ALTS, say Armadillo deserves to be a 4th Tier form and they are good with it. Then I will stop my bitching. Fact is, if you are a 4th tier defense form. It is no way a third tier air form or third tier defense form should be able to out tank blows then you. Also, 1st tier and 2nd tier defense forms cannot take #### and you damn well know it. I had a level 23 oppossum, that got it's ass kick by a zombie in the crypt, first level I mind you. Perhaps, you all should get off your high horse a little bit, and look into these things. I am not mad, I am just frustrated when people defend flawed things.


(calms down and breathes)

Armadillo is a great form for some things, blah for other things. For example, it's probably the best form against invokers and bards, and isn't unusually vulnerable to any class. By comparison, a mongoose is better against warriors but really lousy against invokers. Also an armadillo isn't especially weak against any class. As an armadillo you really should be able to escape from any two people in almost any situation (barring certain deadly gangs which would doom anyone).

Which defensive forms do you actually like? Are you using it with a/b/s? Remember that people like Daevryn always have a/b/s available (though they don't think you need it). An armadillo with a/b/s will never die except by energy drain or automatic death.

Don't get me started on that, immortals knows all the a/b/s locations and we have to actually explored gathillion areas to find them. But that is a another thread. But, then they will come back and say; only certain immortals know and we have to look like everyone else. Like they don't have Imm friends. lol

Only immortal I trust is Enlilth (no sarcasm), I think he is probably the most upfront immortal I have experienced.

You ask for understanding... and then you say no answer is good enough for you.

Just be up front about that in the first place next time so I won't waste my time.

What I was asking for is honesty and being up front. Not for you to defend a system simply because the immortals created it. You know damn well Armadillo kiss ass, yet you defend it. You know damn well it does not deserve to be a 4th tier defense form and if so, it needs to be tweaked. Players in this MUD just want honesty, and if you know something is not right. Drop the pride, I say.

>You know damn well Armadillo kiss ass, yet you defend it.
>You know damn well it does not deserve to be a 4th tier
>defense form and if so, it needs to be tweaked.

Dude, Armadillo is good.

While I disagree with you, I respect your opinion and because you were respectful about your opinion. You are NOT a piece of ####

I have played at least 6-7 armadillo shifters. The form can be a massive blah in some circumstances. If you are into solo exploring or had your heart set on a crocodile, regenerative form, you will probably be a bit annoyed with it. Throw a sandlizard into the combination and it does the job well for some people.

I think the best defensive forms for my play style are those with damage reduction. The armadillo should possibly be given a deterrant type special attack, maybe a poison ability or riposte (that fires randomly when weapons bounce off its hide). That would make it a bit more interesting instead of a 50 round beating dummy.

It is easily the best form for raiding. I have messed up large groups of people in 4 on 4 fights, simply by wanding up, and taking blows for my group mates or distracting cabal inners so raiders get round after round of damage. Throw a offensive form into the fray and you can catch people off guard.

You can walk way from most fights. You have no real weakness to anything, except energy drain and necros. (Despite the high saves, they still get tooled in that aspect)

SOme of the toughest mobs in the game can best be killed by a dillo with a bard support/healer support with group mates dishing out damage and taking turns resting.

Problem with dillo is there are some more interesting alternatives to it currently in game. The pachyderm form is much better and can actually defeat most people if they stand toe to toe with it (prepped) .. After the tweaking that is. The crocodile and its ability to have damage reduction (signifigant) plus massive regen, makes it a better alternative for most people.

I agree armadillo can be rather depressing, but at the same time it does have use and when exploited, it is in a class of its own.

If you go offense form and are getting beat on, you can shift to it, and pretty much walk away, knowing you will survive. Not many forms can say that. Shift to a bird form to fly away, you will eat a few rounds of damage. Revert, cast word, you will eat some damage, etc. Armadillo and you will eat a few scratches before you walk away.

I once rolled 3 armadillos in a row. I deleted all of them. I was trying for a mongoose.

Its all your playstyle.

You keep saying "he know damn well armadillo sucks". Daevryn keeps saying the contrary. Namely that he doesn't think it sucks. You can continue to believe that deep down inside he really knows it sucks and is just maintaining a pretense out of pride (which would be stupid since Zulg was the one who balanced all the forms), or you can take him at his word and believe that he honestly disagrees with you.

Here's my take on things. I wouldn't want armadillo if I were a defense shifter. Why? Because I don't want to have to rely on other people. If I were the kind of person who was into that, though, for instance if I really wanted to explore places, then I might be more high on the armadillo form. It is not the right form for every person. It is the right form for some people. You are not one of those people. Get enough points to take roll the bones. Voila, problem solved.

>Here's my take on things. I wouldn't want armadillo if I were
>a defense shifter. Why? Because I don't want to have to rely
>on other people. If I were the kind of person who was into
>that, though, for instance if I really wanted to explore
>places, then I might be more high on the armadillo form. It
>is not the right form for every person. It is the right form
>for some people.

This really cuts to the heart of it.

For some tasks and some play styles armadillo is inferior to other final defense forms.

For other tasks or play styles it is superior to other final defense forms.

For some not insignificant tasks, it is by far the best form of any focus, including quest forms.

If it's not a good form for you, it's not a good form for you (although you, being the OP and not Isildur, deleted so fast there's no way you can fairly say). But it is not a trash form overall.

I am done bitching, because I already rolled my next defense shifter and pray I do not get a armadillo. Thank you for your input, and if any took offense to my posts. Dont, it is just the way I talk and the way I post. I am not angry, just frustrated I lost 49 hours of my life for that for the 15th time.

Did you not consider taking the edge? Or was it no longer an option?

Well, I would have taken it if I knew the Armadillo sucked as it did. Trust me, I would not have just thrown away 49 hours of my life.

>1. Why is it that we are suppose to specialize in defense, and
>our first and second form can barely take blows at all?

I haven't had this problem. Probably you're expecting to tank something tougher than you actually can, especially while you're still not very good with the form.

>2. Spin off from first question, how come we have stupid
>horrible forms like Armadillo as a 4th tier form? I mean
>seriously, it is horrible. Same for tortoise for third tier,
>horrible.

I like both of those forms, but I may want them for different things than you do.

>B. It has a low ARMOR Class, almost as much as my third tier
>sand lizard or hare, or toirtose.

Armor class? Who cares? You might as well be complaining that it doesn't have enough of the letter Q in its name. Neither of these things is important in any meaningful way.

>D. Basically it is a form that cannot be true defensive unless
>you are with others.

You're wrong. It's incredibly hard to kill an armadillo given a decent player. It's just so, so easy for it to walk away.

Or did you want it to kill people? Well, it doesn't do that. It's defensive. :P

>
>You're wrong. It's incredibly hard to kill an armadillo given
>a decent player. It's just so, so easy for it to walk away.

Incredibly hard is all dependent on how many people you bring. Dispel magic and bash/trip works wonders for Armadillo. That being said you are right it is very easy for it to walk away... Question is how far are you gonna get with that super awesome movement speed? One room? Two?

Zulgh took out movement speed, yo!

which for the dillo is significant

NT

Oh don't get me on my soap box talking about how some 3rd tier air forms out perform 4th tier defense forms in defense.