Originally this was supposed to be a response to Incognito, on Shaltah's deaththread, but it kinda grew out of proportion. I just think it's worthy of discussion (and in my opinion, serious revision).

Let's analyse this:

I'm a Ranger, I don't want to spend one second outside of the wild. I do it when I have to and then as shortly as possible.

I'm also an Applicant Ranger, and I'm trying to get the head back. That means I HAVE to get through the entire lands and back, exposing myself to a whole lot of civilized territory. So I hurry as fast as I can to get the job done.

First obstacle is the first row of Centurions. I could fight them, but they dish out one MASSACRES pretty much every round, even though my hand-to-hand is mastered, and my predatory stance was very high. That means that I really have to starting fleeing after say five-six rounds, considering I'll have to try get passed their block, and find the right direction to flee in. This is easier as a warrior, but then you expose yourself to extra rounds of pain, which a chance of risking it for nothing.

I can win that fight, but I'll be beat up/near death, which means I need to take time to rest up, which means I totally blow any chance of getting the head back quickly. Herbs and camp will fix my health, but I have to go back some distance for that. There is a spot real close by, but considering the whole set-up, I can't get there when there's a Centurion.

Knowing the Empire, it's highly likely that they will strike me while fighting them, which adds another very real risk to the whole thing.

Then, there's the other one to kill. And when that's done, there's the second row.

This means I'm losing valueable time fighting mobs I can pass, just by paying them. Not paying them, means fighting, that's not an option, because soon I'll have my entire PK range after me, which will very likely get me killed and naked, without ever even breaching the outer defences. It's even far worse if the Lich put one of the Centurion rows there. So, what do I do, I pay them.

I can bet there's row 1 and 2, in and out. Each row demanded at least 7,9K and near the end 9,87K that's close to the 40K I mentioned. And that's just ONE PASS! Which doesn't even necessarily mean I actually manage to reach the Vanquisher.

And, since you actually have to pay the exact amount that's demanded, I have to spent time looking for how much I need, and then type pay + the exact amount, any typos means further loss of time. While I'm typing pay, other people have already typed q return, and they're out (if they're smart, that's an alias, like qr or qrt). And I'm still stuck behind the first row of Centurions. Sure, this is a matter of (milli)seconds, but every second is a lost one, if you're being chased.

Sure, many people know a way to gather 40K really fast, but for me that takes ages. At the most, I can do runs on which I can gather about 6-7K, which take somewhere about 10 minutes. On average, that's six runs to gather 40K, which means ONE HOUR, doing nothing but boring coin gathering ...

Is this harsh? I'd say extremely. Especially considering how easy it is to just walk in and out of every other Cabal's outer defences.

PS: Although I wrote this strictly from my viewpoint, this is true for pretty much every applicant(/Battlerager), as far as I can tell. Vanishing might work, if not for the common (and smart) placement of Centurions.
PPS: This is also true for any other guy. But if he's smart enough to have brought a magical means of escape, his cost is halved.
PPPS: Yes, I've played an Imperial, so I know what it looks/feels like from the other side. At the time you could gather items for coins, and after.

a) You should not be using predator's stance in that situation. No wonder you are getting hit a lot.

b) What it costs you is probably less than what it cost them to call them.

c) You have got to be kidding me to say that it is easy to walk in and out of the village outer defenses. The massive giant is a very dangerous place for people to fight.


Basically you picked a class that is particularly unsuitable for fighting centurions, and you are making about the worst possible weapon choice.

From a player's perspective, he has street cred because we learn at on his death thread that yes, we've seen him retrieve and defend and create corpses and curse at his own death.

Although I respect a desire for anyone to want to hide their characters' identities, when a vet or immortal says it's not too hard to it's more convincing when examples can be cited.

For an example, I've heard people complain left and right about raiding outlander, and I would have agreed with them until I watched a scion warrior raid without losing a third of his health, healing during the fight, nor fleeing.

Examples make a big impact.

And I've retrieved from Empire more times than I'd want to count.

I really don't have a problem with Centurions as they are now. They suck for low lvls, but really it just forces the entire cabal to get involved and take risks for the retrieval, instead of sending that lvl 27 dude over there by himself.

That said, there needs to be two entrances to the Imperial Lands. You can still have both entrances blocked with Centurions, but it'd at least have them split Centurions up a little bit, and give you a few more tactical opportunities.

The only kind of imbalance I see in this is that generally the Empire has the most lowbies available to retrieve. More than that its acceptable and appropriate roleplay for higher ranked imperials to say, hey peon go get it. So really it forces everyones higher ranks bar the Empires to get more involved in retrieval. Throw in black circles and centurion summoning traps and its a nastier place to retrieve from than most*.

Just playing devils advocate though, there's nothing I can see that needs changing except maybe the extra entrance.

*I've never retrieved from Outlander.

I really think that those of you who think Centurions are balanced are off your rocker. Centurions are a huge negative to the appeal to this game. No other cabal has a skill that can protect their cabal like this. What's worse is its given to a cabal that is notorious for gang banging.

The thing I hate the most is that once you get through them and manage to kill the Vanquisher, they can be set again to trap you in imperial lands.

When Empire takes an item I feel like quitting. It's actually depressing. I'll log in, feeling excited to play my character, and see Empire has the item and just want to quit immediately.

I love the challenge of trying to get an item back from other cabals when there are those that can harm me. But, with Empire its usually just too dire. I'd give it a go a heck of a lot more if Centurions weren't part of the game.

For a game that has a forum dedicated marketing I find it silly that you would have an aspect of the game that is so unappealing. I can deal with dying. I can deal with getting looted. I can even deal with losing all my stuff because the game crashes just after I die.
I really hate dealing with Centurions and they make me not want to play the game. I find them that unfair. And, I am not the only one.

I have to deal with centurions, and I think they are easy to handle.

Especially given that every time you kill them and leave, it costs imperials to replace them.

Having played from both sides of the coin, I'm gonna say I have no problems with the Centurion power. Yes, they can be a hassle and annoying, more so for some than others, but

1.Applicants can't retrieve anyway.

2.They make retrievals more exciting if you're up for it. Heck, some of my proudest pks were against imperials at centurions!

3.There are ways to getting around them (paying), and if you don't have the means or are a char that will never pay,

4.Nobody is going to blame you and ask you to make a suicidal attempt to retrieve against a whole range of Imperials.

And if there are no in-range Imperials but you're too young to beat them up,

5.See 3 (and it's not too expensive yet) and

6.Chars in other cabals at that age can't beat them up either. Chars at such a young age should not be able to kill 2 big mean cents so easily either.

7.There is no secret about cents..you can consider them, you know they block attempts at fleeing but that it's still possible..they are npcs and automated, so if you die to them, it's really your own fault (I'm saying this having died to them a few times myself :)).

> 1.Applicants can't retrieve anyway.

Doesn't mean I can't get them near death though! :D Something I did regularly.

> 7.There is no secret about cents..you can consider them,

Unless they're clearly of a much higher level, considering them is worthless, imo. Even with good defences, they can really get to you. With Shaltah, I've had them at 'perfect match' all the time (perhaps 'few kills' at the earliest attempt), and they sure could kill me fast, if I let them. And that's using a mastered weapon and very close to mastered defences. Generally speaking, they just don't fight like any other non-mage mobs that are at perfect match.

> you know they block attempts at fleeing but that it's still possible..they are npcs and automated, so if you die to them, it's really your own fault (I'm saying this having died to them a few times myself :)).

Any semi-smart Imperial, especially if he has a way of making you not see him, can make any Centurion a death-trap real fast. Combined with the high likelihood of a mob-death, this seriously blows. Especially knowing the Imperials reputation (although I know it's not always deserved).



Basically, it's a matter of fun. I've always enjoyed retrievals, no matter the Cabal I'm targetting, once your defences are good enough, it's fun to do, even alone. Against the Empire, I hate it. Basically I think the concept of the Empire is something you either love or hate, with no in-between. Let's just say I'm a supporter of the nay-camp.

All I can do is state my opinion and pretty much avoid having anything to do with the Empire. It's a damn shame, but what can you do.


Thanks for the replies (that includes the other imms)!

There is usually no point in trying to retrieve against a Lich plus one or two other imperials waiting to summon you. Go about your business until they log off or at least leave the imperial lands!

>I'm also an Applicant Ranger, and I'm trying to get the head
>back. That means I HAVE to get through the entire lands and
>back, exposing myself to a whole lot of civilized territory.
>So I hurry as fast as I can to get the job done.

Some characters will be better at dealing with Centurions than others. The character you describe is about the worst imaginable for it, so of course it's going to be something you struggle with.

>I'm a Ranger, I don't want to spend one second outside of the
>wild. I do it when I have to and then as shortly as possible.
>I'm also an Applicant Ranger, and I'm trying to get the head
>back. That means I HAVE to get through the entire lands and
>back, exposing myself to a whole lot of civilized territory.
>So I hurry as fast as I can to get the job done.

This is a path you intentionally picked, and thus, I really don't have a problem with it. If you'd picked outlander as your cabal, the flipside is that I as a civilized guy has to run right through your strengths to get my item back. Overall I see that piece as balanced.


>First obstacle is the first row of Centurions.

<clipping a bunch of arguments about Centurions>

>I can bet there's row 1 and 2, in and out. Each row demanded
>at least 7,9K and near the end 9,87K that's close to the 40K I
>mentioned. And that's just ONE PASS! Which doesn't even
>necessarily mean I actually manage to reach the Vanquisher.

<clipping a bunch of arguments about how much it costs to pay centurions, and how hard it is for you to get money>

At most you're going to have 3 sets of Centurions to deal with, and depending on placement, some of those you can actually get around without paying or fighting. The only thing you mention that I'm inclined to look at is how much it costs to pay.

>Is this harsh? I'd say extremely. Especially considering how
>easy it is to just walk in and out of every other Cabal's
>outer defences.

I don't think it's harsh at all. Difficult, sometimes. How many times do you actually have to deal with Centurions (Here is a hint, it is not 100%)? How many of those people have full/useful powers to defend? Not really that many, especially as an applicant.

> This is a path you intentionally picked, and thus, I really don't have a problem with it. If you'd picked outlander as your cabal, the flipside is that I as a civilized guy has to run right through your strengths to get my item back. Overall I see that piece as balanced.

Yup, definitely agreed.

> At most you're going to have 3 sets of Centurions to deal with, and depending on placement, some of those you can actually get around without paying or fighting. The only thing you mention that I'm inclined to look at is how much it costs to pay.

That would be very cool

> I don't think it's harsh at all. Difficult, sometimes. How many times do you actually have to deal with Centurions (Here is a hint, it is not 100%)?

I'd say it was about seven out of ten, I could expect to find the double Centurion rows.

> How many of those people have full/useful powers to defend? Not really that many, especially as an applicant.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

The main thing with fighting Centurions is not the damage output, it's nasty but ah well. What's far more dangerous is the block thing and the very cowardly PK tactics it encourages. If applied wisely, it means you can get someone mob-killed with very little, or close to none, risk to yourself. In a Cabal war related environment, I think that's lame. Mostly because there's no avoiding it, you simply HAVE to face the music.

PS: Just trying to get a discussion going about things that I think might be handled differently. I can accept the fact that I don't like the Empire much :P.

(everything else snipped)

You talked about once you kill the first Centurion, you have to go a long ways to get somewhere to camp/herb. I submit that you need to learn more about the areas around Balator and Imperial Lands, as this is not true. The spot you are talking about where Centurions are most normally placed (Entrance to Balator, just south of Imperial Lands) has a spot that is wooded that is very easy to get to, provided you take the right path to the Centurions in the first place. (Hint - it's not to walk north from Hamsah through Balator.)

In some cases, it is not cowardice that causes imperials to fight at centurions. It might be that they are avoiding being summoned, or that they know that their enemy is going to run away from them.

The thing is, I don't think that lowbies being sent to retrieve is all that good a thing, and higher level characters can normally kill cents pretty easily.

I'm thinking you could very likely have to deal with more than three sets.

You show up and get stopped at the entrance to Balator. Set #1.

You kill them and move into Imperial lands. Before you get to the point at which the roads branch, you hit another pair. Set #2.

While you're killing the Vanquisher, other Imperials call additional sets to replace the two you killed. Sets #3 and #4.

Seems like you could expect to potentially fight one set of centurions for *every Empire character logged in*.

Even though they can't place two sets in the same area at the same time, they can place another set as soon as you kill the first. They'd just have to time it correctly.

What mitigates this, somewhat, is the fact that Imperials have to *pay* out of their donations to call those centurions. So, while it may cost the attacker 40k gold to pay his way past them all, it probably cost the Imperials more just to call them.

The response to that, though, is that it doesn't take a hero as long to gather the cost of a pair of centurions as it takes for a mid-30s guy to gather the gold to pay them.

On at least one occasion I was stuck behind centurions, and it took the combined efforts of three mid-30s warriors (two apps and one rager) to take them down. I'm not sure who called them- might have been Ahtieli, in which case they may have been juiced w/ some cabal-specific edge. Just saying: they hit pretty hard.

>I'm thinking you could very likely have to deal with more
>than three sets.
>
>You show up and get stopped at the entrance to Balator. Set
>#1.
>
>You kill them and move into Imperial lands. Before you get to
>the point at which the roads branch, you hit another pair.
>Set #2.
>
>While you're killing the Vanquisher, other Imperials call
>additional sets to replace the two you killed. Sets #3 and
>#4.

This is what I've seen happen the majority of the time. You'll go through one set at the northernmost room in Balator, one in Imperial Lands, and then one more in each of those places on your way out if the Empire folks logged on think it's going to be useful.

>On at least one occasion I was stuck behind centurions, and it
>took the combined efforts of three mid-30s warriors (two apps
>and one rager) to take them down. I'm not sure who called
>them- might have been Ahtieli, in which case they may have
>been juiced w/ some cabal-specific edge. Just saying: they
>hit pretty hard.

This is true; it takes a much tougher character to deal with Centurions than to deal with any cabal outerguard for the most part. That being said, to me, Centurions (and their implications upon raiding) are sort of the signature power of Empire and should be pretty powerful in the right situations, which I think they are.

Would you consider changing centurions so they only stop people in the PK range of the person that called them? Maybe also add an edge that allows imperials to have "old school" centurions that stop everyone. Or you could make it so deadfalls or beast call work on any player too :)

Definitely not.

Being able to keep an item from, say, a level 25 warrior with no one in range is, to my mind, THE major ability of Centurions.

>Would you consider changing centurions so they only stop
>people in the PK range of the person that called them? Maybe
>also add an edge that allows imperials to have "old school"
>centurions that stop everyone. Or you could make it so
>deadfalls or beast call work on any player too :)

Outlanders already have a power to make raiding hard for lowbie out-of-pk chars.

and a decent set of spell saves makes it very hard to land it.

You have no idea if any of them are awake or not. That works for any range.

Generally this won't be the case for the majority of their enemies but just pointing that out.