I often see sentences like:
- I hate my elven hp!
- high int warriors doen't have enough hp!
- I'm not a giant, gimmi +200hp legacy!
- my crappy elven/arial health!
- etc

I'm in helpful mood today and when I see something like this again in Twist's warrior farewell (and he's an implementor), I feel an urge to reveal the truth }(

High int warriors have less hp than dumb con-based races, true, but the difference isn't huge at all. In most cases, it can be just ignored.

For example (numbers are rough):
arial warrior hp gains per level: 12-16 = 14 avr
duergar warrior hp gains per level: 14-18 = 16 avr
That makes freaking +100hp for a duergar at hero.
Also, keep in mind, that most of high int races use 1 prac per skill and dumb races usually use 2 pracs and sometimes gain less pracs per level. So, in general, high int races have more spare trains and can train hp, thus effectively reducing base hp difference against dumb races.

So, next time you plan to cry about elven hps, just ask yourself, do those +100hp really make any huge difference at hero where dressed warriors can break 1000hp relatively easy?

The only exception is dwarves. Their hp gains are insine :)

I've played elf warrior. I easily had ~1100 hp, so I've never worried or cried about low hp. Though I felt some difference with hp at low/middle ranks. I remember Twist posted about same hp amount somewhere in his goodbyes.

Also elves have a lot less bad match ups against different race/class combos.

For example:
1. Bard =) as elf I just lolled, as giant I have to worry.
2. Spells of necro, ap. As elf it's easy, as giant you will be slept for sure.

and so on.

...is that the low hp iron/mithril vuln is absolutely brutal 15-35.

After that, I actually like high dex/high int warriors over giants etc.

When Isildur made the statement that Arials are not Elves, and Duergars are not Felar/Dwarves, he was trying to make a point that seemingly small differences in stats can make a large difference, especially when you get to the extremes.

Elves and Drow have 16con, Arials have 18. The difference is definitely noticable, having played both types of warriors. Arials also have inherent flight, and a bit more dex, as far as survivability goes.

Duergar do have 22con, but 22 to 23 con is a bit of a jump, and obviously 25 con is nuts, but you view dwarves as a 'special case' and that's fine.

The real issue here is that you should be comparing 16 con vs above average con in general, in addition to the pluses and negatives of the races in question.


Just look at elven race survivability:

- Easily exploited metal vulns
- 16 con, very low gains
- Obvious alignment, provoking PKs with no interaction first
- Medium size, perfect for giant bashing
- Huge xp penalties creating harsher ranges

+ High dex (but realistically felar, elf, half-elf, human = 23, drow, wood-elf, half-drow = 24, arial = 25, so it's not exceptional)
+ High int, skills better on average, STSF possibility
+ Sneak?


Let's be reasonable. We know the races are balanced based on every factor involved, not just hp gains. Your post appears to be saying that since arials seem to survive about the same as duergar on average, elves have no right to complain about hp. I agree more or less on the survivability (in large part because duergar are a big target, while arials you don't know may be an ally), but your argument is rather nonsensical.

Elves still have survivability issues, especially when going through the early-mid ranks. Whether or not this is balanced is another question (Personally I feel that elf/drow penalties are a little harsh for purely RP reasons).

So first, that means it's not a myth. It's a fact.

Second, things like physical resist make a huge difference on a giant. Several other races resist magical damage, but elves and arials don't - and you can't dodge a geyser or a pillar of lightning. This means they're more vulnerable to indirect (non-melee) damage AND not resistant to melee. Something shared only by felar and humans. Add into this that their hp is lower, and you've got a greater fear of invokers spells and similar mage mechanics than a dumb race.

Third, the difference is most noteable when they're equipped. Where an elf might be trying to stack on some extra hp gear, other races won't bother. Yet they still nearly always have that extra 150-200 hp on the elves and arials. Look at all the logs of smart races at their max hp. Look at all the logs of dumb races at their max. Ignore base hp and just look at how their stats and race effect their equipment decisions. Even if an elf or arial decides to focus on hp a bit more - they are always behind the dumber races. That extra hp has as much effect on their decisions to equip as it does on their final hp when it's all washed.

You seem to be trivialising 100hp, but the fact that the difference is always MORE than that combined with the inherent strengths/weaknesses of a class, means it is a much bigger advantage than you're making out. I'm not sure what you stand to gain by making this argument, but you are pushing the boundaries of fact by suggesting there's not a lot of difference. An extra 10-15% hp at hero is pretty damn sweet.

So first, that means it's not a myth. It's a fact.

They have less hp, true. However the myth "they have low hp" is wrong.

Second, things like physical resist make a huge difference on
a giant. Several other races resist magical damage, but elves
and arials don't - and you can't dodge a geyser or a pillar of
lightning. This means they're more vulnerable to indirect
(non-melee) damage AND not resistant to melee. Something
shared only by felar and humans. Add into this that their hp
is lower, and you've got a greater fear of invokers spells and
similar mage mechanics than a dumb race.

High int races are more resistant against spells. They have better saves. Try to spell up an elf and a fire giant and you will see the difference. We also have mental damage in the game.
And again, my post is about hps, not about resistances of other balance issues.

Third, the difference is most noteable when they're equipped.
Where an elf might be trying to stack on some extra hp gear,
other races won't bother.

Elven who believe in myth may try to stack some extra hp gear. More smart people dress like warriors. I didn't dress for hp with my last arial warrior because I have a clue.

Yet they still nearly always have
that extra 150-200 hp on the elves and arials.

If you manage your stats well, that will not happen. Dressed for hp elf warrior will have the same amount of hp or even more than dressed for other stats fire giant.
If they both wear the same set of eq, the hp difference will be about 100. So, please, stop talking about 200, because this number is baseless and just wrong. I'm not sure why you try to confuse people with lies.

Look at all the
logs of smart races at their max hp. Look at all the logs of
dumb races at their max. Ignore base hp and just look at how
their stats and race effect their equipment decisions. Even if
an elf or arial decides to focus on hp a bit more - they are
always behind the dumber races. That extra hp has as much
effect on their decisions to equip as it does on their final
hp when it's all washed.

I'm looking through logs of my last arial warrior and don't see that. I have somewhat less hp but the difference is not huge (100 or less) and that's it.
Or you mean logs of people who believe in the myth?


You seem to be trivialising 100hp

Moreover, I come with math and arguments where you come with just baseless words trying to replace arguments with emotions and beliefs.

but the fact that the difference is always MORE than that combined with the inherent
strengths/weaknesses of a class

the fact is the difference is as much as I said. But the myth is that the difference is always MORE.

means it is a much bigger
advantage than you're making out. I'm not sure what you stand
to gain by making this argument, but you are pushing the
boundaries of fact by suggesting there's not a lot of
difference. An extra 10-15% hp at hero is pretty damn sweet.

Extra 100hp is good, but not great. Other factors play more significant role. They are:
- high dex, high int for quick races
- size, high str and often good dex for dumb races.
- resistances vs vulnirabilities
- extra cost (pre hero)
- inherits
- eq choices
- etc

What I mean under "100hp isn't huge difference"?
For example, assuming everything else is equal, I will take higher int over 100hp every time. And I will take higher dex over 100hp every time. In fact, I would probably take any of perks like high stat, resistance, etc over 100hp.

I take a random snapshot of eq/hp for my two last warriors.
Both are well dressed.


arial warrior rager, 1102 hp

Xubetok is using:
<worn on finger>    a bloodstone ring
<worn on finger>    a bloodstone ring
<worn around neck>  (Humming) a fine stole of white ermine
<worn around neck>  (Glowing) a brooch set with blue stones
<worn on body>      (Glowing) (Humming) a suit of darkened platemail
<worn on head>      a circlet of dark metal
<worn on face>      a steel avian mask
<worn on legs>      (Glowing) (Humming) a pair of darkened leggings
<worn on claws>     a pair of mithril-reinforced talons
<worn on hands>     a pair of steel-trimmed gauntlets
<worn on arms>      (Glowing) (Humming) the sleeves of Harrapia
<worn on wings>     a pair of silver-tipped feathered ribbons
<worn about waist>  a girth of lobster plates
<worn around wrist> a studded leather bracer
<worn around wrist> a wide copper bracelet
<mainhand wielded>  (Humming) a sharp coral-bladed dagger
<offhand wielded>   (Glowing) (Humming) the dagger of Yog-Sothoth

duergar warrior emperor, 1185hp. (He also completed one of +hp quests)

Grottimgesh is using:
<worn on finger>    a bloodstone ring
<worn on finger>    a bloodstone ring 
<worn around neck>  (Humming) a long blue cloak embroidered with a black dragon
<worn around neck>  (Humming) a blood-encrusted mithril badge
<worn on body>      (Glowing) (Humming) a suit of darkened platemail
<worn on head>      a circlet of dark metal
<worn on face>      (Invis) (Glowing) (Humming) the Death Mask of ar-Ghazi
<worn on legs>      Leggings from the Scales of Tiamat
<worn on feet>      a pair of spike-toed boots
<worn on hands>     a pair of darkened mithril gauntlets studded with small spikes
<worn on arms>      some darkened mithril sleeves set with large spikes
<worn about body>   (Humming) the hide of the great dire wolf
<worn about waist>  (Glowing) a belt of flaming demon scales
<worn around wrist> the Bracelet of Charms
<worn around wrist> a glass eye bracelet
<wielded>           a long sword named 'HumanSunder'
<dual wield>        (Glowing) (Humming) the crystalline eldritch sword named 'Spirit Breaker'

The hp difference is only bothersome up to about level 30 or so. Where I might level sit a giant warrior in the thirties for a while, I'd rush an elf to hero.

The elf races, specifically, all have a very common and very hard to cover vulnerability. I think this is part of why they feel so frail (besides having the lowest base hp).

However, Vulnirability is another matter. Other races have their own problems as well (tell duergars about vulnirabilities or giants about fiends).
I just warn people not to confuse the fact they suck with their hps }(
After all, elves have great int, good dodge, auto-sneak, some cool elf-only eq. They needed some drawbacks other than just having -100hp at hero.

You went from a post about high int races whining about their HP at hero, to suggesting that the Imms nerf elves.

As Nep brought up, you can't look at stats alone and make an argument. You need consider inherent abilities, vulnerabilities, resistances and any 100% skills that they don't need to bother mastering (sort of a big deal for those low-int races for anyone who doesn't wish to spend time spam practicing them up).

While the elves have great int, good dex, and can sneak. Duergar have pretty good str, dex, and con, not to mention get detect hidden and 100% berserk off the bat, oh and resist poison and magic.

Anyhow, not trying to start a flame war about which race is better, just hoping you'll focus on more of the positives of other races, or even more on the negatives that help balance out the high int races. Look at gnomes for example: vuln_blunt. Need I say more?

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Gnomes, for example, have possibly the best set of stats in the game overall, but also have negligible resistances, no inherents, arguably the worst vuln in the game, and being small is, overall, probably worse for more things than it's good.

Storm giants have (in my opinion, based on years of playing, watching fights, working on the code, etc.) the worst set of stats ofa ny race, but also no vulnerabilities, the best set of resistances/immunities on any chooseable race (in other words, excluding the undead), a decent inherent, a handy utility ability in permanent water breathing, and the benefits of giant size.

If you look at just stats, one of those races is clearly better. If you look at just racial perks, one of those races is clearly better. The truth, as always, depends on what you're trying to do with the race, the style of the player, and so on.

You went from a post about high int races whining about their
HP at hero, to suggesting that the Imms nerf elves.

I don't see any suggestion from me to nerf elves. You have good imagination.

As Nep brought up, you can't look at stats alone and make an
argument.

My original post was about "hp myth". I repeat, I'm only talking about common misbelief that low con races have very low hp. They have just fine hp. Less than high con races, but nothing that much as many people believe.
Not sure why you bring balance issues here. I didn't plan to talk about balance at all. I suggest you to read what I write, not what you think I wrote.

You need consider inherent abilities,
vulnerabilities, resistances and any 100% skills that they
don't need to bother mastering (sort of a big deal for those
low-int races for anyone who doesn't wish to spend time spam
practicing them up).

Since I'm talking about hp, why should I consider all that stuff?

While the elves have great int, good dex, and can sneak.
Duergar have pretty good str, dex, and con, not to mention get
detect hidden and 100% berserk off the bat, oh and resist
poison and magic.

Since I'm talking about hp, why you bring it here? Just make another topic and discuss resistances, abilities, etc.
Nep said that elves feel frail not just because of hp, but because of their vulnirability. I agreed.
My point is that if you suck with an elf warrior, don't blame your hp gains. They are good enough.
And while they have bad vulnirability, they also have some really cool perks and with recent dex changes I don't consider them underpowered or whatever. Duergars have even worse vulnirability, but do just fine with their race specific advantages.

Anyhow, not trying to start a flame war about which race is
better, just hoping you'll focus on more of the positives of
other races, or even more on the negatives that help balance
out the high int races. Look at gnomes for example:
vuln_blunt. Need I say more?

I hope you're not trying to start a flame war, so just keep yourself within the topic subject: hp gains for low and high con races.
Leave all that balance stuff for other threads.

>I don't see any suggestion from me to nerf elves. You have
>good imagination.

I can see how your post could be read that way. When I first read it I thought I picked that up too, but on rereading it I decided that's not what you meant.

Just for what it's worth.

>Duergars have even worse
>vulnirability, but do just fine with their race specific
>advantages.

I disagree a bit there. I think they're both pretty bad, but in different ways.

On one hand, spells/powers/communes/etc. that can take advantage of an iron vulnerability are extremely rare.

On the other hand, iron weapons (including at the high end) are a lot lot lot more common than holy, light, and whitesteel put together -- especially depending on the weapon type.

>I disagree a bit there. I think they're both pretty bad, but
>in different ways.
>
>On one hand, spells/powers/communes/etc. that can take
>advantage of an iron vulnerability are extremely rare.
>
>On the other hand, iron weapons (including at the high end)
>are a lot lot lot more common than holy, light, and whitesteel
>put together -- especially depending on the weapon type.

It's too easy to exploit wrath vulnirability at hero, plus it's hard to cover. And we also have marans with their weapons as a bonus.
Iron vulnirability is bad too (and practically impossible to cover), but speaking about warriors... elves are high dex creatures and usually good tanks, so they simply dodge those iron weapons. Sure, there is direct damage but that is only a part of damage coming to you. I would be scared more about wrathing weapons as a cloud giant, for example, than an elf about iron weapons.
Just my two cents.
Elven/drow vulnirability doesn't scare me. While I agree that it's bad, I also believe that it's not easy to exploit if an elf has a clue. Go and dodge it. Or if you can't dodge, go and disarm it. Whatever.

And I don't even mention what race is a warrior who holds the "PK wins" record of CF }(

Just saying....

.

I'm sure when you logon your character, all your sleeks and possible usable preps are in the corpses on Eastern, except for that prot v. metal prep.

But seriously, really? I can grab that prot v. metal prep easy as pie as long as its' a certain time in game, and I only know of two resist postive pieces of gear or preps. The gear I'd have to pk for and the prep is usually not high on my list's of things to grab.

>But seriously, really? I can grab that prot v. metal prep
>easy as pie as long as its' a certain time in game

Well, true, but that has a drawback that can get you killed -- especially if you're one of the elf races.

I'd usually rather take my chances with the damage.

The other thing is, I'm 90% sure resist metals and vuln iron/mithril is a wash, whereas a resist positive duergar just goes straight to resistant.

Nobody is perfect, especially on the internet. You needn't be so defensive about my response, I was only trying to help.

My arial warriors without soul of the mountain have had roughly 250 hp less than my fire giant warriors.

My dwarf warriors have never made it to hero and gotten then big boots for the last 10 lvls, but already at lvl 25 I've had roughly 150hp more than my arials.

My arials land at around 1000-1100hp at 51 with decent gear, (not geared for hp) and my giants for around 1300-1400hp (not geared for hp)

So, to the math.

Arials do get avg 14hp/lvl, and avg 20 hp the last 10 lvls. =760

Giants get avg 17hp/lvl, and avg 23 hp the last 10 lvls. =910

Dwarves get avg 20hp/lvl and avg 26 the last 10 lvls. =1060
Dwaves also start with more hp than arials, can't remember how much but it was quite the difference, like 30-40hp difference?

I'm not home so I can't look through my loggs. Otherwise I could compare my lvl 30 dwarf warriors base hp with my lvl 30 arials base hps. All I remember was that I was totally amazed with the difference.

I think the numbers are fairly correct, these are pulled from my memory but I can check my loggs when I get home. :D

My arial warriors without soul of the mountain have had
roughly 250 hp less than my fire giant warriors.

Then you're doing something wrong.

My dwarf warriors have never made it to hero and gotten then
big boots for the last 10 lvls, but already at lvl 25 I've had
roughly 150hp more than my arials.

I haven't played a dwarf lately, but I believe they get 20-24 hp per level. I can be wrong though. Anyway, they have huge boost.


My arials land at around 1000-1100hp at 51 with decent gear,
(not geared for hp) and my giants for around 1300-1400hp (not
geared for hp)

That's impossible. Under normal circumstances.


So, to the math.

Look, your math is simply wrong :)

Arials do get avg 14hp/lvl, and avg 20 hp the last 10 lvls. =760

arials get 14hp per level and ~21-25hp for the last 10. = 790 + start base hp (+20)

Giants get avg 17hp/lvl, and avg 23 hp the last 10 lvls. =910

I don't have exact numbers for giants, but probably only fire giants gain more than 16 hp per level. Though I'm not sure they reach 17hp per level rate. And they get a bit more than 23hp per level for the last 10 levels. Anyway, fire giants roughly get +150hp compared to arials.
Now, they gain only 2 pracs per level and have low int. Arial warriors may train hp more. Consider this: 3 pracs vs 2 pracs = +5 trains at hero. 1 prac per skill against 2 pracs per skill = + some more trains. If you manage your stats well, you can train hp 5-7 times for an arial. Thus making hp difference about 100 or even less.

Dwarves get avg 20hp/lvl and avg 26 the last 10 lvls. =1060
Dwaves also start with more hp than arials, can't remember how
much but it was quite the difference, like 30-40hp
difference?

Dwarves are exceptional.

Eh. Arial isn't elf, and duergar isn't felar/dwarf. Also consider that warriors get a boost for the last 10 ranks, and it seems to be bigger for races with high con.

I'd have to do the math, but I believe the most common high-int warrior races also have further to go (from where they start at character creation) to reach max stats. So, while they're spending 1 prac/skill instead of 2, they're also spending a few more trains on their stats.

Eh. Arial isn't elf, and duergar isn't felar/dwarf.

Also, day is not night and red isn't green. However, it doesn't bring any new arguments and, probably, is irrelevant to my original point.
Duergar has 22 con and felar has 23. I don't have felar experience but I expect it to gain something like 14-19hp.
So, generally speaking in extreme cases, like elf vs felar or fire gint you probably will end with +150hp but prac/train advantage may bring it back to +100 or below.

The only exception: dwarves. They have significant boost to hp gains.

Also consider that warriors get a boost for the last 10 ranks, and
it seems to be bigger for races with high con.

From my experience, this gain is about +9hp, it's not a straightforward constant addition, but rather constant-based increase for parameters of normal distribution. Whatever.
It can be slightly less for low con races, but the difference is really small.

I'd have to do the math, but I believe the most common
high-int warrior races also have further to go (from where
they start at character creation) to reach max stats. So,
while they're spending 1 prac/skill instead of 2, they're also
spending a few more trains on their stats.

Do the math, I'm lazy :)
Without digging deeply into it:
It can be somewhat even for avr high int and avr high con races if you train your stats fully, but in extreme cases extra prac/trains make difference. For example, fire giants usually have problems with spare trains and elves/gnomes will have a lot of spares.
Keep in mind, that you don't really have to train int/wis to max, because they go up with age.