It was a legitment question on a incredibly lame skill


As you run past thief, he grabs the amulet of Ravenkind from your neck.
Somewhere

This DOES not need to be in the game, it detracts from the play.

Or was it because that path wasn't meant for the public yet? I thought I wrote a fairly long and fair post.

It's something that isn't terribly well-known, and some people like an element of exploration.

FWIW, I thought your analysis was way off target, largely because you were ignoring the relative costs. You want it to be something 'big', but it isn't and won't be.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

...in that I find the thief class in general lacking across the board - and this addition I found a great move in the right direction, just not with the right "umph".

A pity.

I thought it was pretty awesome after I got over the initial dissapointment of ranking up to the top skills and finding out what they did, or didn't do. It makes sense that they wouldn't make you extremely overpowered for how cheap they are. I really like the utility of it all and the path definetly has its uses.

It was more frustrating figuring out it wasn't "full" at level 42 but still think some of the skills need tweaking. Things like the Veils not lasting long, 2-round lag, and pulling you out of shadows just seems dumb.

Part of the fun for some people (perhaps not you) is the exploration of it and the trying new things. Part of the fun for an imm putting new stuff in is seeing someone go through it for the first time.

We update the game all the time and often give things a fair amount of time and then we'll tweak them if they're too weak or too powerful. A lot of the time it'll take an imm actually playing a mortal to test something to see its power level because our testing abilities are only so good.

>Part of the fun for some people (perhaps not you) is the
>exploration of it and the trying new things. Part of the fun
>for an imm putting new stuff in is seeing someone go through
>it for the first time.

I've no problem with trying new things, I did stick it out for 40+ levels with only five-six skills didn't I? :) Knowing it wasn't "full" though would have changed my perception drastically I think - but some things I just think need adjusting as I wrote.

>We update the game all the time and often give things a fair
>amount of time and then we'll tweak them if they're too weak
>or too powerful. A lot of the time it'll take an imm actually
>playing a mortal to test something to see its power level
>because our testing abilities are only so good.

But a lot of these skills have been in the game for multiple years (6-7?) that people believe are underwhelming, right? I think the only paths that really got tweaked were traps getting effects and poisoners being limited with suggestion so people weren't stripping ST mobs of gear - changes that alleviated the situation but didn't fix the inherent problem. Thieves have to be one of the least effective hero classes...I know it's been mentioned and kicked around that they need another revamp (like Nep and Zulg have said of path changes) and maybe it will take Nep trying for a "deathful" binder to get this to happen.

Just seems pretty annoying that player feedback is so little in the equation for change - sometimes taking years before we can say "told you so". I can find posts multiple years ago of me saying how much trappers were horribly underpowered... I just figured I'd give some constructive feedback to speed the process this time around.

gr

...and make one in the hero range that gets a decent pk ratio against difficult or "skilled" targets. For everyone that thinks they're the answer against a skilled AP, I'd love to see it actually happen (especially when they can just invoke the opal to get away).

A class isn't "deathful" by any means if it can only kill easy targets - waiting on the mistake of someone also doesn't count. Even if the perfect situation comes along, let's say you land the blackjack and your one allowed chance of bind hand fails at 100% - now what?

So you have to be able to kill a buff, uber geared AP solo or else your class is underpowered? Is that the argument that you're going with? Seriously?

...then there needs to be a rock-paper-scissor effectiveness to any class (since all classes are not equal against each other). I'm going with my argument under the vocal assumption that binders are great against prepped characters - if not I'd love to hear what binders are good at besides killing sucky solo players or the blue moon when everything works perfectly.

Tell me honestly...

If you -had- managed to make yourself a buff ap, and a binder just wiped out all your effort, would you not have complained and said it wasn't reasonable?

After trying one and knowing the weakness of the class, it would take a miracle - especially with the opal completely negating the class abilities entirely since you can invoke while trussed.

Did Cabdru or Ravon ever lose it to a binder? Nope and until I see it happen, it's all hearsay on paper. I'd rather put my money on a stripping or PWK/Cleave option.

Thieves just don't rank well, no one asks them to do anything and they are the weakest class at hero, binder's ability to kill most folks outright when everything goes off aside. Those that hero, tend to be either caballed, permaing or masochists.

wtf... just admit that thieves catch people with their pants down and AP's prime weakness is getting caught with their pants down. Hell, all the binder has to do is give up cheap shot for grease weapon instead of using sleeping disarm and it gets even easier.

Sorry man, but you're wrong - Iltch was in range of Ravon for quite a long time. Granted he would full-sac Iltch for his failed attempts and played with him more than he should have, but it never happened.

I guess this can just be one of those areas that I disagree with the vocal group against me. I'd love to see a Cabdru/Ravon lose it to a binder, I just don't see it happening.

Also, due to Ravon not having any reason to use anything but an overpowered lightning control.

Seriously though. Grease weapon. You won't even have to land the binds, just jack them with iron grip down. It'll work eventually even if they're tossing out oblits with it in normal melee.


"I have to admit I hate pretty much all of these ideas. :)" - Nepenthe, on New Ranger Skills

I think you completely missed my point.

You complained that a binder can't mess these uber-chars up.

My point was that if they could, and you had an uber-ap that got messed up by a binder, I think you'd have complained that it shouldn't be so easy for one class to mess up an uber-char, particularly as you were a serial ap player for quite some time.

If a class is specifically designed to beat prepped-up characters, I'm fine with that - it requires a blue moon, but they are absolutely horrible if anything fails like blackjack or bind hands/feet....and underpowered in too many ways. Thieves in general actually.

Uber characters need some way to go down - spamming cleave and PWK isn't my idea of what the only options should be (actually I hate those random skills). Binders in my opinion should be a fair option but I'm saying right now, they have no chance. When all you need to do is "wear opal;invoke <something>" to get out from a class that has no other options *at all*, it's not right.

Either fix binders and thieves so they're not useless at hero against what they're meant for (aka binders against prepped chars) or make them better in general against everything so they're not useless when that blue moon doesn't arrive.

After playing one, if I played another AP...I would *much* rather fear a lot of other classes than a binder thief. I can understand why Ravon was full-saccing Iltch since he didn't want the blue moon but I'd much rather fear some cleave/PWK nut.

My opinion isn't widely shared though and some of this is becoming detrimental to being productive at all.....I'll just wait for someone to prove me wrong then (or in a few years yell "told you so" like I did with trappers :))

>
>Did Cabdru or Ravon ever lose it to a binder? Nope and until I
>see it happen, it's all hearsay on paper. I'd rather put my
>money on a stripping or PWK/Cleave option.

... against everything but an undead or dragon-sized PC.

As far as I know there's no way to be a dragon-sized PC, except in CF urban legend.

Enlarged giant is another story, but that's not such a big issue unless you're a svirf or (conditionally) Battle.

About mummies and liches, though:

Are binders more or less totally negated by these classes, or can you offer some cryptic hint as to otherwise?

Thanks.

K

More or less, yeah. You could still run up to them and steal from them, but that's about all I can think of.

.

260 hours for 50 pks with a rating of "Hides Behind Allies". Sorry but I fought Iltch - 90% of it was the proccing gear which is the problem with most thieves.

I had a lot of decent solo kills. And uh..I don't understand your argument where a class has to be able to compete completely gearless to be considered decent? Maybe you should consider only playing shapeshifters?

How does one come across all that prog gear though? Isn't that a great part of being a thief?

But she did what you asked.

50 pks is fine for someone who didn't have third attack or grand nocturne, considering how ####ing *long* it takes to kill people as a binder. It still would have been one of the few things to kill Cabdru for instance.

For reference, I was a pure thug thief at the time going for bind legs, but even if I got that skill the prog gear and permanent flight was a problem yes, there was no good way to apply earthbind AND backstab her before she figured out what was going on and jacked me.

Nevertheless, I'm not stupid enough not to assume that binder thief pissed plenty of people off and killed off plenty of people who weren't going to die otherwise. I'm pretty sure without the progging gear it just meant she needed more binds to land, and she took arial on purpose precisely to die less and learn the binds faster.

gr

The hours and pks were at 51 purely, not anything before. Read your own PBF - if you want your special 84, then add another 160 hours.

Sheesh

"I have to admit I hate pretty much all of these ideas. :)" - Nepenthe, on New Ranger Skills

~

.

Sorry, but I really read this as:

"Someone proved me wrong, so I'm going to move the goalposts again."

I wouldn't be in favor of 'full pathing' that concept.

In my opinion (in retrospect -- if it had been clear to me at the time I would've said something, of course) the single biggest mistake the thief revamp team made was trying to shoehorn everything into vaguely equal 'full paths'.

I mean, here's the one class that relatively can pick and choose skills. It's part of its uniqueness. What would be the problem with making, say, traps a half-size path? That way you don't end up trying to make knockout trap (or whatever) overpowered to compensate for their weaknesses, and you don't end up shoehorning combat steal and shield block into the path for seemingly no reason.

I didn't read your initial post. But if you're questioning that skill, I'd like to know why?

Seems pretty cool to me.

Alot of things could be cool in the lines of making it more realisitic,

Thinking realisticly, yes as you ran any shmuck that was beating you down could in theory grab your necklace and tear it from your fleeing neck. From a gameplay perspective that feels like the slippery slope to the deficate command.

Sure that skill is not going to make or break the game, really I don't think it'd win you many fights. In Time + Rp + PK + rank + gear + prep equation that is CF however, I feel like its one more annoying ass thing that the game just does not need.

I mean hell, just give everyone cloud of wasps and annoy everyone at once and be done with it.

I don't want to upset you, but.

That skill is okay. Let me tell you, a mace spec of mine trashed like five pieces of someone's gear once. It sucks for the said character.

There are a lot of things that suck for said characters.

I don't know why this skill is not in that category.

You can't give -everyone- cloud of wasps, but -everyone- kind of has something JUST like it already.

As someone who looks in terms of power/PK, thieves are generally terrible. Sure they can rob your ass blind and make life a living hell, but that is their entire purpose.

I like that dynamic. I like the fact that if I can't see 'em, I'm scared of them. Not because they will kill me, but because they are going to steal the things that make me "invincible".

That's their niche!

First off, let me say. I'm more annoyed that this even made it into the game, than just flat out angry. And, while my tone is always sharp, I don't think you could piss me off half as bad as someone I just won't mention.

Back to the topic athand,

None of those skills are automatic, you have to give something else up to get a chance to use them.

Dent, no damage, wastes two rounds. Deflect, ditto.

Weaponbreaker, no damage, but definatly a legitment combat move as those 2 rounds of no commands could still pump out enough damage to kill them.

Cloud of wasps, great skill from the rangers perspective, but again not automatic takes 2 rounds and mana and fails quite often even in prime terrain.

Poisons/Traps, require not only preps, but usually about 3 seperate commands to get rolling

Binders, probably the most annoying. But they have to get pretty lucky for all bindings to go down and no one come across and rescue

PWK, you can save against and again you can beat said necro down because its not a automatic skill

So your right, sort of. Everyone has a skill like that, just thug thieves get a automatic partingblow style dent.

Along these lines if we're going to go with it I'm going to unswear off playing thieves as soon as you add off the realism aspect of not being able to strip off the armor of unconcious foes.

For the same reason you can yank off someones chain as they run past, you should be able to strip off some tiamats five color while they're jacked. Lets do it people.

As Kernagor runs past you, you drop and deftly cut a precise slice around his belt and through the back of his pants.
Kernagor's pants fall to his knees.
Kernagor, unbalanced, trips over himself.
Kernagor's clumsiness grazes him.

nt

Briefly, and this goes for your prays in-game, you may safely assume that the staff is tired of dealing with your lack of impulse control.

As for the skill, that's what it's supposed to do. Thieves are supposed to be good at relieving you of it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I'm pretty tired of this crap.

You wonder why people are leaving this mud, maybe it has to do with how this game circulates more on wasting massive amounts of time and less about being fun.

I think from a personal perspective, my reason for leaving would be crap like this.

First off, what do my prays have to do with this?

Second, I brought up a skill on the Gameplay forum.

Thirdly, I think your taking this as some sort of personal assult.


I'm not assulting you personally, I'm not really pissing on anything at all.
I'm asking why the ability to steal things right off of a players body when already having the ability to rob from their inventory as they flee AND parting block AND see what direction they flee in for flee/knife spam.
Just how is this edge/skill anything more than a I'm going to be a jerk skill?

First off, what do my prays have to do with this?

The common thread is that you seem incapable or uninterested in doing anything better than screaming at the top of your lungs until someone pays attention to you. Among the staff, I am not alone by a long shot in being sick of dealing with you.

Second, I brought up a skill on the Gameplay forum.

You did. If you can do this without the now-deleted pile of ranting nonsense, that would be preferred.

As for the skill, "it irritates you" isn't sufficient justification for changing it. Gear is not some birthright of your character that you can never lose. Thieves, by design, have a number of skills designed to separate you from it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The common thread is that you seem incapable or uninterested in doing anything better than screaming at the top of your lungs until someone pays attention to you. Among the staff, I am not alone by a long shot in being sick of dealing with you.


Awesome, so what your really saying. Is you've finally vaguely legitment reason after years of tailor my threads and ####ing with me in game, have found a reason to shut up the last of the vocal older players.

I seriously wonder why I haven't devoted my logs to Eithis's sad but somewhat determined plan to out every CF secret. In light of above garbage.

gr

They take #### too personally.

>I'm pretty tired of this crap.

I'm guessing that in general the staff is tired of situations where someone immediately reposts something, almost verbatim, after it's deleted.

>You wonder why people are leaving this mud, maybe it has to do
>with how this game circulates more on wasting massive amounts
>of time and less about being fun.

I bet it was fun for the thief. Now he doesn't have to waste the time of killing the vampire in Barovia for an amulet. Because he has yours.

>I'm asking why the ability to steal things right off of a
>players body when already having the ability to rob from their
>inventory as they flee AND parting block AND see what
>direction they flee in for flee/knife spam.

This is like asking why necromancers get pwk when they also have sleep, and scourge, and blind, and course. Why? Why not?

The entire thief class is predicated around their ability to get "stuff" from you without actually killing you. Why is this any different? Warriors can dirt/disarm you. Orcs can grapple weapon. Warriors can strip. Invokers can destroy (certain) worn gear with stone shatter.

>Just how is this edge/skill anything more than a I'm going to
>be a jerk skill?

Is a jerk move to want someone's gear and take it? If so, then most everyone who plays this game is a jerk, because much of it revolves around killing people and taking their shinies.

Basically, the general issue is this:

You really like a fairly narrow band of kinds of characters. That's fine.

You have a fairly myopic view of the game, in the sense of you really really dislike anything that ####s with that kind of character, or forces them to fight in a way that isn't the ideal for them. Or kills them. Or takes their necklace. If people attack your characters in a smart way and don't just line up to die, that pisses you off too.

That's also fine, in the sense that while I would consider you to be wrong, it wouldn't specifically offend us or anything.

What becomes not fine is when you freak out and basically make yourself look like an ass over it, forums or otherwise. Which, in case you didn't notice, is what you're doing. Even if you think you're right, the manner in which you're choosing to convey your message does you no credit.

Your right, I did react like an ass. I won't deny that, I was genuinely annoyed at the fact that this skill was added to the game.

Its certainly not the loss of my l33t ravenkind amulet god knows that vampire is supar tough and all. (sic)

My response was probably more based on a thief who's a griefier with a skill that makes it easier for him to be a griefer, coupled with imm rewards. *gag*

Griefers with griefer skills aside. It sometimes strikes me like someone upstairs in imm land is sitting around thinking, how can I make something thats annoying, really annoying. So as to consume other players time to a even greater level while granting, even less reward. Oh I've got it, deficate!

*Edit* Oh, and the cherry on my sunday was yet another personal attack on me, by an imm Valg no less.
Thanks Valg, I <3 player/char assassination its hawt ####, is that the new standard?

>Your right, I did react like an ass. I won't deny that, I was
>genuinely annoyed at the fact that this skill was added to the
>game.

You know that skill is over 6 years old, right?

>My response was probably more based on a thief who's a
>griefier with a skill that makes it easier for him to be a
>griefer, coupled with imm rewards. *gag*

I suggest to you that whichever thief it is you're cheesed off at probably doesn't think of himself as a griefer, and, most likely, other players have no less valid reasons to think of you as a griefer.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Six years ago it could steal stuff off peoples bodies?

I've fought my fair share of thugs, and that has Definatly never happened.

>Six years ago it could steal stuff off peoples bodies?

Correct. It's that old and unchanged since its introduction.

I hope this is a 1% chance, that will never end up anywhere but in this post.

Because no one I've talked too has heard of it, and I can't find a log with anything close to this in it.

But you can see the code, and I can't.

I've seen logs of it posted in the past, for what it's worth. They're there in the Dio's archive somewhere for the digging I'm sure.

But I don't seem to remember ever losing anything worn, only inventory pieces.

EDIT -LOG FROM AUGUST 2007-:
<47%-582hp 4m 326mv 9245tnl (44.17%) civilized> w

People near you:

(PK) Karzol A Ruined Wall of the City

Rakur The Ruined Streets of Anguish



<47%-582hp 4m 326mv 9245tnl (44.17%) civilized> Merinan steps out of the shadows.

Merinan drives his dagger into your side!

Merinan's knifing *** DEMOLISHES *** you!

You yell 'Help! Merinan knifed me!'

No way! You are still fighting!

Merinan's freezing bite MASSACRES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!



**

As you run past Merinan, he grabs an axe with a blade of opal from your belongings.

** God damn it.



The Breaching of the Walls of the Ostalagiah Ruins

You climb atop the pile of rubble and ash which once stood as the

western wall of Ostalagiah. It served its purpose well, but not well

enough. It now stands in ruins, smoldering remains of what was once a

mighty city. After many years of war the united fronts finally destroyed

the wall, through which a flood of dwarven, elven and human soldiers came.

After freeing the slaves, ransacking the city and turning the walls to

rubble, the united front turned around and headed back to their respective

homelands to the north. While that ancient war is over, the sight of

distant burning fires and a village settled to the west of here gives one

reason to believe that it is not the only war that occurs throughout these

ruined buildings.





You flee from combat!

This log is the first I've ever heard of it. I figured it was an edge or something.

Nope. Vanilla Payment of the Coward. It's so old, Agathocles wrote the code for it! (I can tell this because his coding style is distinctive.)

gr

Part of the original design from 2000, and the only alteration in the code I'm seeing has to do with the Arena. It merely doesn't trigger very often.

Now that I'm reading it, it doesn't look to go off as often as intended-- one of the skill checks looks botched (penalty from the thief's perspective for increasing skill). I'll get a second opinion and work from there.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yeah, that's screwed up. The skill currently works less well (mostly -- some parts of it were right, but most were backwards) as your skill improves.

No wonder the rarer steals have almost never been seen -- the skill itself works a lot less than designed.

FNCR!

That it irritates me that you are so disrespectful to someone who devotes a lot of time and energy to making this game fun. Maybe my efforts aren't currently making it fun specifically for you, but that still isn't really any reason to 'grief' me for who I choose to reward.

What becomes not fine is when you freak out and basically make yourself look like an ass over it, forums or otherwise. Which, in case you didn't notice, is what you're doing. Even if you think you're right, the manner in which you're choosing to convey your message does you no credit.


I want to say something about this now. I really thinking removing topics with a playerbase like we have isn't necessary.

Someone very notable once said that it is better to let ppl talk in the open than not. Because if it's better to have in the open the terrible ideas than to have in closed doors.

The above is paraphrased.

I would have been happier looking like an ass.

Which I still might look like an ass, but now I look like a possible ass who was attacked by the immortals for seemingly no reason.

I won't deny my post was somewhat of an attack, infact I didn't really see it as a attack on Raihyn at the time anyway.
I won't discuss said character, I tried to avoid posting anything about him, etc etc.

Whatever at this point, the holes are dug, both mine and theirs.

>Which I still might look like an ass, but now I look like a
>possible ass who was attacked by the immortals for seemingly
>no reason.

Uh... I can't imagine anyone but you thinks it's for seemingly no reason.

I'm just saying.