Purpose of This Post

I wish to raise a point about the current layout of certain mage abilities that, in my view, are misplaced. I'm interested in knowing what the rest of you think.


Topic: Which is the truest of mages, between shapeshifters and conjurers?

Here are my issues:

1) Conjurers are the masters of divination, and retained locate object because the power of the spell belongs firmly in their realm. Yet, certain other mage classes (shapeshifters and transmuters) have kept the same version of the spell, and there is no good reason why. It makes their lives easier...that's fine. Still, the lives of necromancers and invokers got harder as a result (this is debatable...however I'd take old locate over gravesight and elemental attunement any day of the week). The result? Lots of shapeshifters still horde lots of gear.

2) Spellcraft. If any of the mage classes seem undeserving of this ability, it's shapeshifters. Conjurers, actually, could totally benefit from it. Would it unbalance things...? Hell if I know, because I've never seen it in action on a conjurer.

3) Prime stat being charisma for conjurers. Now this is particularly bothersome for me, because the class contradicts itself in its own damned helpfile, and that same contradiction carries over into the class's spell-set. Let me explain where I am seeing this...

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Conjurer Helpfile

The Conjurer uses magic to bind extra-planar beings into service, using
the powers of these beings to accomplish their goals. The beings conjured
can provide the Conjurer with information, protection, transport, or
offensive strength. Each Conjurer may be versed in the creation of circles
of protection should their bindings fail.

The primary stat of the Conjurer is Charisma, as bargaining with beings
of superior strength and intellect may be quite challenging. The Conjurer
must choose his interplanar allies wisely, for all services may require
a hidden cost.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I could see charisma as being the prime stat for good-aligned conjurers. However, it makes no sense to me for evils. Really, it makes no sense whatsoever because of the binding spells...I mean, why the #### would I be bargaining with something that I am going to enslave so it does whatever I say? That's like...

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"Now Timmy, I want you to eat your vegetables. Once you do that, I'll get you a scoop of ice cream," says Dolores (conjurer), Timmy's mother, as she smiles warmly to her son.

Timmy, being a petulant 7-year-old (challegha demon) narrows his gaze, and Dolores knows it's going to be a battle of wills. With that newly-developed condescending tone, Timmy announces, "No! I ate my chicken nuggets, Ma'! I want the ice cream!"

No stranger to meal-time warfare, Dolores takes on a somewhat more stern tone, but begins to lay on the charm even more thickly, "You did eat them all up! I'm so proud of you! But..." now she places a hand on his shoulder, an act both comforting and oddly menacing to Timmy, "...you told your father that you would eat the vegetables, and you should keep your word. I promise that ice cream will be worth it."

The realization of defeat slowly dawning, Timmy gradually brings his fork to bear on the meager pile of squash and carrots. But, he thinks it's a good deal because he's still getting what he wants.

For reasons unknown, after Dolores sees that she has won this battle, she lunges for Timmy's throat with the freakish speed of a crack-head chasing a run-away rock. Seizing the boy by the scruff, she pulls his head back and, with her other hand, begins to stuff the vegetables into his awe-struck mouth. Apparently the bargaining was just a sick game played by a sadistic home-maker. Timmy's last thought before he blacks out from the trauma is, "As soon as you turn your back, bitch..."


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Hopefully we can drop this "bargaining pretense" and just admit that conjurers are true mages who rely on their intelligence and their ability to enslave, for good or ill.

Discuss!!

Currently, intelligence is an important stat for conjurers. However, it's not the most important stat.

I think what it comes down to for me is that charisma is a less narrowly defined stat than your version of it. It's the ability to persuade, presence, looks to some degree, force of personality, ability to read people, empathy, and "social smarts." Generally in life the person in the room with the best chance of getting you to do what they want is not the smartest person in the room. Exhibit A: An individual or two in the CF community (not involved in this conversation) who are clearly very smart, yet, manage to ask for what they want in a way that makes you want to disagree.

Being able to draw a circle or cast a binding correctly is intelligence. Being able to give commands to a challegha demon that it wants to obey rather than find a way to pervert and/or kill you is charisma.

Well spoken.

I got nothin'.



Give em spellcraft anyway!

:7 <----- CHR

>1) Conjurers are the masters of divination, and retained
>locate object because the power of the spell belongs
>firmly in their realm. Yet, certain other mage classes
>(shapeshifters and transmuters) have kept the same version of
>the spell, and there is no good reason why. It makes their
>lives easier...that's fine. Still, the lives of necromancers
>and invokers got harder as a result (this is
>debatable...however I'd take old locate over gravesight and
>elemental attunement any day of the week). The result? Lots of
>shapeshifters still horde lots of gear.

Because nobody has come up with a good replacement that fits.

>2) Spellcraft. If any of the mage classes seem undeserving of
>this ability, it's shapeshifters.

Just because you cast spells on yourself, you should lose the benefit?

>Conjurers, actually, could
>totally benefit from it. Would it unbalance things...? Hell if
>I know, because I've never seen it in action on a conjurer.

But they have a different mechanism (mana pumping) to gain more powerful spells.

>3) Prime stat being charisma for conjurers. Now this is
>particularly bothersome for me, because the class contradicts
>itself in its own damned helpfile, and that same contradiction
>carries over into the class's spell-set. Let me explain where
>I am seeing this...

Just because you use magic to bind, doesn't mean it's the be-all end-all of binding. You notice that those creatures you bind can still turn on you EVEN though your magic has bound them. So I disagree that intelligence is their prime stat.

>>1) Conjurers are the masters of divination, and retained
>>locate object because the power of the spell belongs
>>firmly in their realm. Yet, certain other mage classes
>>(shapeshifters and transmuters) have kept the same version
>of
>>the spell, and there is no good reason why. It makes their
>>lives easier...that's fine. Still, the lives of necromancers
>>and invokers got harder as a result (this is
>>debatable...however I'd take old locate over gravesight and
>>elemental attunement any day of the week). The result? Lots
>of
>>shapeshifters still horde lots of gear.
>
>Because nobody has come up with a good replacement that fits.


You could remove it completely from shapeshifters. They are the epitome of self-based magic...divination is the antithesis of that, and is all about "reaching outside the self."


>>2) Spellcraft. If any of the mage classes seem undeserving
>of
>>this ability, it's shapeshifters.
>
>Just because you cast spells on yourself, you should lose the
>benefit?

Eh, if it doesn't help their main method of doing things (forms), they could live without it. Just up the duration of their spells across the board to compensate. Still, you're probably right. They could keep it just fine. However, I bet they spend less of their lives using the "cast" command than conjurers, and conjurers are denied this...that's what doesn't make sense.

>>Conjurers, actually, could
>>totally benefit from it. Would it unbalance things...? Hell
>if
>>I know, because I've never seen it in action on a conjurer.
>
>But they have a different mechanism (mana pumping) to gain
>more powerful spells.


Sure, that's true. What about things other than conjurations though? It'd make sense for it to affect flash, magic missile...uh...other stuff?


>>3) Prime stat being charisma for conjurers. Now this is
>>particularly bothersome for me, because the class
>contradicts
>>itself in its own damned helpfile, and that same
>contradiction
>>carries over into the class's spell-set. Let me explain
>where
>>I am seeing this...
>
>Just because you use magic to bind, doesn't mean it's the
>be-all end-all of binding. You notice that those creatures
>you bind can still turn on you EVEN though your magic has
>bound them. So I disagree that intelligence is their prime
>stat.


Maybe there could be two methods here. One, your usual binding, and two, some kind of skill called uh...persuade! Yeah, PERSUADE!! One might want to persuade very intelligent servitors, because they know an attempt at binding them might be taken very badly (and it'd be less likely to succeed). Lesser beings, like some demons and all elementals, it might just be better to bind. The main thing is that CHR just cannot govern all of it, because I mean, when a servitor is pissed at you it's your binding and your circles keeping him in check.

>>>2) Spellcraft. If any of the mage classes seem undeserving
>>of
>>>this ability, it's shapeshifters.
>>
>>Just because you cast spells on yourself, you should lose
>the
>>benefit?
>
>Eh, if it doesn't help their main method of doing things
>(forms), they could live without it. Just up the duration of
>their spells across the board to compensate. Still, you're
>probably right. They could keep it just fine. However, I bet
>they spend less of their lives using the "cast" command than
>conjurers, and conjurers are denied this...that's what doesn't
>make sense.

It actually does help with their main method of doing things...especially when one of the big tactics against them is dispel magic. You're damn right I want my stoneskin, fly, haste, etc to be as high level as possible (spellcraft) so it has a better chance of sticking, than be guaranteed to be stuck with a level 51 haste at best, knowing I'm going to fight someone with a level 59 dispel potentially.

>>>Conjurers, actually, could
>>>totally benefit from it. Would it unbalance things...? Hell
>>if
>>>I know, because I've never seen it in action on a conjurer.
>>
>>But they have a different mechanism (mana pumping) to gain
>>more powerful spells.
>
>
>Sure, that's true. What about things other than conjurations
>though? It'd make sense for it to affect flash, magic
>missile...uh...other stuff?

Giving it to conjurers for flash & magic missile...meh, I'm not overly excited about it (much less the coding to explicitly remove it from the rest of their spellbook)