Let a shifter choose exact forms within his specializations. Or a bundle of forms.
Probably it is not great for players when the major part of the character design is random. A number of players actually did delete after they got "unwanted" forms.
That will require good balance between forms and also it may expose balance problems with them. But I believe that forms are more balanced now than before, so probably you can give that a try.

I understand that many are used to random forms and accept it as "by design", but here I'm asking to change the design for a better one.

Anyway, if you have good arguments against this idea can we consider and discuss them? And if they are high quality, probably we can change warriors so they will get random specs too.

A reasonable solution could be to have shifters gain a form on the first available level. They then choose to accept that form, by shifting into it, or when they level, they're assigned another randomly, excluding the first. You would basically get three chances, but if your last one wasn't what you wanted, you'd be stuck with it. Still a random element but with some choice in form.

>A reasonable solution could be to have shifters gain a form
>on the first available level. They then choose to accept that
>form, by shifting into it, or when they level, they're
>assigned another randomly, excluding the first. You would
>basically get three chances, but if your last one wasn't what
>you wanted, you'd be stuck with it. Still a random element but
>with some choice in form.

That's an interesting suggestion. Thanks.

nt

Despite what the Imms are saying, the forms are not balanced. It becomes a mission of sorts to get the perfect combo for what you are roleplaying. Its part of the excitement of an otherwise dull class. Getting that last kill to your rank, and look at the screen to find...damn I got something good.

Its like playing the lottery. I once deleted 4 shifters in a row that got Alligator. I think I even emailed the Imms after shifter number four cause I was sure it was some conspiracy, (given my high number of shifters I play).

Leave the randomness for forms...However...Make role rewards more focused. More quest forms, more 4th tier forms that suit a players role and play style should be more common.

Use ELemath for example. He had Direwolf/Eagle. His role reward was Lion. Not sure what difference that really was but it gave him the extra offensive oomph that fit the role and the player behind was happy.

Most quest forms are not overpowered at all, when compared to other classes, (AP's with charges, skilled invokers, skilled bards, etc.), yet they are so rarely given out that it seems weird.

Last couple of quest forms I have played or fought agaisnt were probably weaker or at least equal to other fourth tier forms. Yeti, Octopus, etc. But they still add something to the game and are pretty damn cool.

If more players were getting quest forms or bonus 4th tier forms for good work, then it would make things more on par with the obvious overpowered combos.

Look at the PK totals for shifters...Despite people complaining about the odd hardcore combo. AIr-Tiger, or forms with finishing oomph, most shifters dont crack 50 pk wins and have tons of losses thrown in there.

PS: Pissudin should have been given a cool form. Mantis sucks. :P

The sixth focus I will be revamping will be quest forms. You are right, as of today, they pretty much suck compared to some of the revamped forms. I did actually spruce up a couple and it's a thousand times easier with the vast set of skills I've added to make them a lot better. The other thing that has happened with all the forms on the way is I've created some formulas to make forms fit into a certain window (damage output per round, defensive ability, etc), and this is where you'll see the quest forms get the biggest boost probably.

Awesome

plz don't unnerf it too much

Makes me want to make another shifter, especially with the thought of being able to reroll a non-used form if you got something that just doesn't float your boat. I just hope, like you said up top, that it doesn't diminish the excitement of seeing what you get from the next mob you kill!

-----Abernyte

I have several, and I will format them so those who love the class can flame me in an organized fashion.

Many of their skills mimic those of other classes. Don't steal powers, but give them something unique. In that vein, shapeshifter powers seem to be more successful than the warrior spec skills they mimic: ram boneshatter, wombat charge come to mind. Bleh.

Flyto/murder is a lot more powerful on a shapeshifter than on a gating healer, particularly with A BS shifter. Fly forms are weak, you say? Compare that to a healer's kick and the ability for the shapeshifter to shift into an offensive form or damage-dealing porcupine.

Old and new forms need to be considered collectively (ram/porcupine presently presents a sick combination with a ram's new ability to boneshatter or break weapons and the old style porcupine's damage output against short weapons), and strong powers like pounce should accompany forms that are vulnerable or lack the offensive power of other similar-tier offensive forms to reduce the "this form sucks" factor.

Gear changes have increased the power of this popular melee class with mage powers without making them more gear dependent.

Race vulnerabilities should extend in some manner into the shapeshifter form along with their strengths so we see a bit more biodiversity in the class, just as dex changes went in to make the melee classes more inviting to non-giants. Gnomes can have very good hitpoints compared to their mage and melee counterparts, presumbaly to cover their vulnerability, but in form they presently have no vulnerability.

Shapeshifters have been called boring, but with the increase in each form's utility comes power to all focuses and the class as a whole. No other class has quite the potential to fight effectively naked PVP and or PVE, see hidden and camouflaged characters without 'that item', fly or swim, hide or camouflage.

I don't envy you this project, Z., and I appreciate your efforts, but it will be a huge undertaking unless you chant the mantra, "Not every matchup is balanced, and it is working as designed."

I hope you opt to tackle this as a huge undertaking.

Qaledus posted below about CF Shifters basically experiencing a physical form of a "totem quest". At least, that's what I got from reading that. So, how about at various stages in a shapeshifter's life, they have to answer questions given by a guildmaster? These would be automated, but depending on the answers the shapeshifter's forms would slant one way or another.

So, right out of the gate shifters would still choose their shapefoci. But, before they ever get a form, they'd answer questions pertaining to their foci.

If you were an Offense/Defense shifter, well, whenever you hit the level where you get your first form, you'd see an echo along the lines of 'You feel drawn to your guildmaster as newfound power springs from within.' Now, upon entering the guild the guildmaster would say something like:


The Shapeshifter Guildmaster says, 'You have done well thus far, apprentice.'

Casting a discerning gaze at you, the guildmaster seems to see right through to your very soul.

The Shapeshifter Guildmaster says, 'I sense your desire to hunt like the predatory beasts of the wilds. Tell me which you are more fond of: the savannah, the mountains, the forest, or the desert?'

Depending on the answer, hidden "points" would be assigned to certain sub-classes of forms within a given foci. There is still a bit of randomness. This isn't something I'd want people to just crunch down into specific formulas for certain form combos. However, I think it would help close the gap between total randomness and total control.

*shrug*

Didn't say I really like this idea. But it's an idea nonetheless.

My first was my favorite, by far. Jahzul, a Scarab, who was an old-school kind of shifter with the Lion and Cat forms (I was really too new to know what a badass combo that was, or how to use it well). Despite my n00bness at the time, that was a hell of a lot of fun.

Then I had Avmenseur, an elf Trouper with the manta and the jaguar. Manta was cool, but the jag was such a steaming pile of #### (especially compared to my fond lion memories), that I never used it. Ultimately, I deleted out of boredom.

Then I had some felar shifter in Outlander a few years ago. I think I was unhappy with every damned form he got. I was hoping for lion/hyena or something, iirc, and I don't think I ended up with either. I deleted promptly with a feeling of "bleh."

Ilrahsek was my last attempt, and ended up with pretty cool forms. Ram/Dillo could be tough. I would have taken lion, tiger, porcupine or mongoose over it any day, though.

Basically, 75% of my time playing shifters resulted in me disliking what I had to work with. Sure, I made-do as much as possible, but I really was more dissapointed with the class than anything else.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Switching gears here. Has anyone ever played a team-style FPS game? My current example would be Team Fortress 2. Now, each class in that game is fun and I've tried them all. It was only after trying each one and becoming proficient that I tried the "Random" class selection button, and I think it stuck me with a Medic. Ok, no problem, I can work with that even though I'm not too keen on the class, when compared to something like the Spy or Pyro. But as soon as the Medic died I picked a different class (not the random one). There is really no consequence in a game like that for picking a random option. In CF, the consequence is a ton of time down the drain if you don't get what you want.

I know, from reading this thread, that the Staff stance is to stay random. Some players want it to not be random. Why can't both be allowed? In truth, it really is a test of the balance of the class. I mean, if it were balanced, one combo would not be favored over another because each would be equally likely to succeed, right?

Anyways, I am just taking a logical poke at the whole thing. I really have no interest in the class, other than to kill them in-game because 9/10ths seem to be gear hording assclowns who think gnomish RP means no punctuation and retard-speak.

I read most of the thread and there's definitely a distinct difference between the thinking of the staff and a small portion of the playerbase. That's cool, and understandable.

Personally, I like the unpredictibility of the shifter class, and love the suspense in seeing what form I get next... HOWEVER...

Maybe to appease the grievers, you can create some kind of "metamorphasis edge" where the shifter can exchange a form for another one, BUT this new form is weaker than if you had received the form originally. The form would look the same, but they'd be 10-15% less effective than normal (Dodging/parrying/dam redux/regen/hit/dam/etc).

So, if you REALLY REALLY want a form, you can have it - but at a price.

>I read most of the thread and there's definitely a distinct
>difference between the thinking of the staff and a small
>portion of the playerbase. That's cool, and understandable.

Not a small potion of the playerbase but the majority of the playerbase.

>So, if you REALLY REALLY want a form, you can have it - but at
>a price.

I, personally, don't like half-steps like that. If you're trying to cure something you admit that the problem exists. If you admit the problem exists, why don't cure it all?

IMM's want the forms to be random. I want the forms to be random. Neither of us think it's a problem.

If you want to be able to pick your own form, I'm just suggesting a option to allow you to do it... but you have to pay the price.

You can think of it as your char trying to change what the gods gave him - and since mortals are not as good as gods, they cannot create the perfect form either.

This would also minimize "powergaming" combos in that the form you pick is not that "perfect" form, but a slightly lesser version.

Powergaming combos make sense only when forms are not balanced.
Else people would just choose what fits their style/cabal/RP/goals and I don't think that all will chooose the same.

If you predict powergaming than you admit that forms aren't balanced and there are winning combos. If this is really a case then it's a problem that requires attention.

>If you predict powergaming than you admit that forms aren't
>balanced and there are winning combos. If this is really a
>case then it's a problem that requires attention.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think it's possible to create a situation in which all combinations are equally good. There will always be some variance in combo synergy.

Let's pretend tiger + falcon is good, falcon + armadillo is bad, tiger + armadillo is bad, and armadillo + lion is good.

If tiger and falcon as a combo is "too good", how do you weaken that without making another problem worse?

It's not easy to make things balanced. Nor I expect all combinations be equally good. But I believe that some good balance point is reachable. Let me use warriors as an example again. In different times in the warriors' history there always were some balance problems, swords specs are too strong! Hand specs are too weak!!! Gnomes suck!!! But they weren't extremely huge, people would still play various specs and various combos. In practical sense, the warrior class is "balanced" well enough, right now you can play nearly all race/spec combinations though probably some of them are still stronger. I hope to see that this can be said about shifters forms in future (it's actually irrelevant to the whole randomness issue). Can it be done easily? No, but it's still possible.

>Let's pretend tiger + falcon is good, falcon + armadillo is
>bad, tiger + armadillo is bad, and armadillo + lion is good.
>
>If tiger and falcon as a combo is "too good", how do you
>weaken that without making another problem worse?

If there is no obvious decision (lower damroll) that probably some underlying features can be changed.
Just a quick example out of my head (not that I really propose to do it):
make air and offense forms to consume a lot of movements for special strikes and give armadillo movement regen.
Let us say you can't rake or pounce with <50% moves and flyto takes about 20-30% of moves. This way you can downgrade falcon+tiger because you still can flyto/murder but can't pounce and improve armadillo+tiger.

Let me re-phrase. I used the word "powergame" in a pk-context. There are always going to be "fly-to/murder" chars that want the fastest flying forms combined with pouncing tigers (or whatever you think your perfect combo is). It's not so much the forms being balanced. People will always grieve that one form is better than another. Really, it's our playerbase that not balanced.

> It's not so much the forms being balanced. People will
>always grieve that one form is better than another. Really,
>it's our playerbase that not balanced.

This is also true. I've seen many a player draw a form that had recently seen big improvements and delete immediately because of the form's bad buzz.

(Not that that's exactly an argument for randomness, it's just commentary.)

I've always wanted to play an explorer type shifter. Now, there are two things that I consider essential for the the character I want to play, but neither are guaranteed, so I haven't played it. I simply refuse to roll 5 consecutive shifters in the hopes I get one of the form combinations that will allow me to explore the stuff I want to explore in a way that doesn't make me want to rip my head off.

Being able to rechoose a final form would certainly be a step in the right direction, but I would certainly prefer to be able to choose my forms. As Nefla, I was really hoping to get forage are run with my lesser utility forms, but ended up with neither. I got poison with a lower tier form, and cobra with my final, so that was a waste. I got hide, which, while somewhat useful, was really dissapointing because I had enemies that would almost all have detect hidden when they were in town, and out of town, I have chamo.

I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the character, or the forms, but sans forage, playing an outlander shifter wasn't nearly as easy as I'd have liked, and without run I couldn't get back to defend fast enough most of the time (even the cheetah, while fast, wasn't *run* fast).

Any, I'd certainly vote for choosable forms. I'd compare the current situation to random legacy warrior. Sometimes you get hosed by getting trapping with a dagger spec. Sometimes you want to explore and really think having whispers would help, but you don't get it and instead have to either suck it up, or reroll. Sure, you might pick swords and hands with your human str warrior spec for utility and a good mix of offense and utility, but if your legacies come in balance of the sisters and flow of shadows.... well you are going to feel a little cheated that you didn't get to pick.

I've rambled. I'm done.

I rolled two shifters and didn't get anything that would suit my particular play style. I said ah hell, one more try, and still ended up with forms that didn't suit my particular needs or goals, and promptly deleted...again.

There seriously needs to be some sort of capability of rechoosing your final form. Until that happens, the random suckiness is just too much of a waste of time. Without actually looking at number of hours to reach hero with shifters, I'd say it takes roughly 70-80 hours. Sorry, but to some people that only get the opportunity to play an hour or two every other day, sometimes less, that's a lot of weeks.

We were given hints that there might be some capability of at least rechoosing your final form, but nothing has come to fruition. What gives?

I appreciate all the work and effort put into shifters thus far, but it needs that extra boost.

>We were given hints that there might be some capability of at
>least rechoosing your final form, but nothing has come to
>fruition. What gives?

You were also given flat-out declarations that water and air shifters would be revamped as offense/utility/defense, and that hasn't happened yet either. Relax.

Zulg spent December Santa Zulg-ing instead.

Even in posting responses it seems...

Yeah, sure, you can say sit back and relax all you want. You're an Imm and probably haven't spent three characters worth of time trying to get suitable forms. Hell, if you wanted, you could roll up a shifter, hit one of the other implementor's up on IM, and ask what your forms are before you ever even start. You aren't in the same position as the players are in this respect, so to say relax, isn't really a fair or justifiable response. But thanks for trying to make me look like an ass, despite my efforts to say I do greatly appreciate the effort put forth on this shapeshifter overhaul.

That said, why should this option wait? Obviously it is something which seems to be intentionally implemented at some point or another. I don't think an option like this would be available if the staff truly believe that, even post revamp, the forms are balanced across the board. They aren't. I just got finished playing my third one. I am not just blowing smoke up people's asses here. It is a well known fact that there are inferior forms. And maybe inferior isn't even the right choice of word. It's a matter of player preference and player suitability. When the forms are completely random, you are forced as a player, to adjust to something you may not even want to play. You may be forced to adjust to a particular play style that doesn't fit your role. The list goes on.

So why not make this option available ahead of schedule, and give current or aspiring shapeshifters something to look forward to?

I admit that I was consumed by the allure of the shapeshifter revamp, thinking that the forms were going to be well rounded and well balanced. But after playing them, I've realized I don't like to be forced to play a certain way. I know that I, and probably others, would rather enjoy playing a shapeshifter, than putting up with being a shapeshifter. The class is cool. It's unique. But has serious limitations that no other class has to deal with. Unpredictability.

He completes the Shifter revamp. Then he would work on the possiblity of rechoosing your final form.

Yeah, it's something I suggested as a non-cheap shifter edge. There'd be an opportunity cost to reroll a form.

I don't plan to start on shifter edges until after the shifter revamp is done. Although that being said, I haven't been working my way through the current set of edges I'm working on very quickly, so who knows what the timetable would be even if.

How large percentage of shifters are going to afford a non-cheap edge at the point they are getting their first form? I'm inclined to think that it's the minority, as shifters often powerrank to the high levels.

If you're planning to power to hero, how much do you care about what your first form is?

Is this more true if you only get one repick ever?

That's about what I have in mind, at least.

>If you're planning to power to hero, how much do you care
>about what your first form is?

First top tier form. I'm not convinced that I have points for a high-priced egde at level 42-44, especially if I power to hero. So, the edge should be cheapish, free or there coud be an ability to pay the edge with edge points that are not yet earned(the points going into the negative side). Anyway, the point is to save the shifter from the "gimped for the time being" situation where he gets his major form but is unable to use it because it would disallow the repicking he plans to do.

>Is this more true if you only get one repick ever?

One repick ever is what I had in mind too, so yes.

>That's about what I have in mind, at least.

>Anyway, if you have good arguments against this idea can we
>consider and discuss them? And if they are high quality,
>probably we can change warriors so they will get random specs
>too.

That would be silly.

Some people really like the random aspect. There's a shifter class for them.

Some people really don't. There's a number of classes for them.

I don't see a strong reason to strip out one of the unique things about the shifter class in favor of greater homogeneity.

Maybe we can have two version of shifter?
If you choose your forms then you get them.
If you don't choose, you will gain random forms.
Both kind of players (random lovers and haters) will be happy.
That's assuming that random lovers like randomness for their own character, not for other characters.

Anyway, may be make a quick pool to see how many people prefer random forms and how many prefer to choose. I really want to see the distribution :), because I have no idea what it will be, people are wierd sometimes.

This is one where I'll keep history on my side and say it's always been this way. The underlying problem that people have with the randomness of form is that either the form they get is crappy (which is what the revamp is trying to fix), and the other is that they got the same form multiple times and don't want them, which I will address via an edge/quest/something to change a final form once the focuses are done being revamped.

I could be completely way off base here, but I'm assuming this is how shifter forms are determined: There are "packets" of forms, and if you get a form from "packet A" then your next form will be from "packet B." Or maybe your first form is from "packet C" in which case, would make your final form from "packet A."

So what I'm getting at, is if you have a 3rd tier form that focuses on dodging and regeneration, you'll get a 4th tier form that focuses on damage reduction (for defense).

Personally, I don't think forms are random at all anymore. I think you have strategically arranged the forms to play out to whatever you happen to think is balanced.

The problem I think you, and whoever else from the staff, have with choosing forms, is the simple fact that some forms suck, and some are better, and some fall down the middle, because of possible utility options they have (e.g. detect hidden, danger sense, run, etc.).

The thought process should be more like this, though: Let people choose their forms based on the type of character they want to build. Maybe you want to build an exploration shifter? Maybe you want to build a rescuer/defense type shifter? Maybe you want to make a pure PK shifter? Maybe you want a survivable shifter? Maybe you want a shifter with more utility options?

Instead, I feel we, the players, are predisposed to particular builds of shapeshifters, tailored around your goal of "balance."

>I could be completely way off base here, but I'm assuming
>this is how shifter forms are determined: There are "packets"
>of forms, and if you get a form from "packet A" then your next
>form will be from "packet B." Or maybe your first form is from
>"packet C" in which case, would make your final form from
>"packet A."

The only limitations is if you get a Tier X form, you won't get 1 or 2 forms from Tier X+1. Beyond that it is still just a roll of the random number generator. e.g. If you get tortoise, you won't get armadillo.

I can't decide if you're intentionally presenting a straw man or if you actually believe this.

>Maybe we can have two version of shifter?
>If you choose your forms then you get them.
>If you don't choose, you will gain random forms.
>Both kind of players (random lovers and haters) will be
>happy.
>That's assuming that random lovers like randomness for their
>own character, not for other characters.

People enjoy randomness on a level playing field (such as it is) with other people. If picking forms is an option, it becomes mandatory.

If I have one casino where the tables are fair, and a casino next door where the player wins every time, even people who love gambling are going to the second casino.

>People enjoy randomness on a level playing field (such as it
>is) with other people. If picking forms is an option, it
>becomes mandatory.
>
>If I have one casino where the tables are fair, and a casino
>next door where the player wins every time, even people who
>love gambling are going to the second casino.

See... here is where I disagree, mostly because different people define "winnning" differently in this case. I hear a lot of people saying tiger would be the only offensive form chosen, or no one would ever choose armadillo or pachedyrm for defense or whatever, but I for one, was actually hoping for Jaguar when I played Nefla. And I probably would have chosen fox over cobra for my utility form (even though I would have in retrospect greatly regretted not having a regen form).

Different people want different things out of their shifters, and while owl/tiger might be a popular choice for pkillers, so was dagger/whip and dagger/mace with balance and striking for a while. Fads come and go. If you really think picking forms being an option makes in mandatory, then you obviously think some forms are so far superior to other forms that they aren't worth having... I'd say that is something to address directly instead of a "Better luck next time" attitude.

nt

.

>See... here is where I disagree, mostly because different
>people define "winnning" differently in this case.

I think most people would define 'winning' as getting exactly the set of forms you think you want.

nt

I can't see any point in posting. You'll just take it out of context to mean whatever you want.

Is the mentality the staff has then, now and always will. When they've made up their mind on something, it's not changing. Players are stupid, staff is right. Your way or the highway. Your refusal to retort to any other points I've made seems, to me at least, like glaring evidence of this. Would it help if my name were GinGa, DurNominator, or some other staff kiss ass?

It's not about winning or losing. I just want to be able to convey and make understood my side of the coin. I still feel the unpredictability of the shapeshifter class is a flaw, and not a good thing.

I couldn't imagine being a warrior getting random specializations or random legacies. Could you? That's what you're suggesting and what's currently in play for shapeshifters.

>Is the mentality the staff has then, now and always will.
>When they've made up their mind on something, it's not
>changing.

I'll call out the Santa Zulg specifically about stats being seen pre-level 20 and call ####. The staff had made up its mind, and didn't change for a very long time. Someone made a constructive post, we discussed it more and went for a change.

>It's not about winning or losing. I just want to be able to
>convey and make understood my side of the coin. I still feel
>the unpredictability of the shapeshifter class is a flaw, and
>not a good thing.

I hear you that you think it's a flaw. I think that what I'm trying to do via the revamp fixes the majority of the issues people have brought up, and when it's complete I think it will solve the root cause of the problem.

Where we differ, is you think the root cause is that you can't pick forms, and I don't.

Yeah, with the stat change, it only took 8 years and a little christmas spirit. Maybe I should rephrase the statement to "when they've made up their mind, they won't change it... for a very long time."

But see, that's just the thing. The staff makes up their mind about something and assumes it's right for god knows how long. Not being able to see a numerical number for stats never made sense. But it's one of those little things that you learn to adapt to (by writing your stats down on a piece of paper or on the PC). Shapeshifters being forced into a particular style of play within the parameters of their focus is a much, much larger setback than having to write stat numbers down.

If I were able to customize say, an Outlander shapeshifter, I'd probably like to have a wildcat, since it can auto-creep in the woods, along with several other utility options. Maybe I'd like to also have something that can evade a bunch of special guards somehow, either by dodging a whole (lemur/mongoose) lot or just simply flying away.

But this sort of customization apparently is not wanted. And I still haven't heard any valid reasons as to why, other than "but people like the randomness" argument.

And for that, I call ####.

>But this sort of customization apparently is not wanted.

That's right, I have no intention of changing it.

>And I
>still haven't heard any valid reasons as to why, other than
>"but people like the randomness" argument.

I see them as a class that has the easiest re-equipability of any other class (e.g. You die, you can still shell out 500 points of damage a round as an offense major, whereas a warrior gets to take an hour or few to do the same) and the least amount of drawbacks to getting back into the game, is one very good reason.

Another reason, is that if you want to play the super-customizable class, go play a warrior, or a thief, or an invoker. Not everything in the game is going to fall into that level of customization. With shifters, your customization is your choice of two focus, and within that choice is the randomness of your forms.

It's a different approach, and THAT is adds to the variety of Carrion Fields.

>And for that, I call ####.

And with that, I'm done on this topic. Take it or leave it...and I already know your answer, so don't bother.

>It's not about winning or losing. I just want to be able to
>convey and make understood my side of the coin. I still feel
>the unpredictability of the shapeshifter class is a flaw, and
>not a good thing.

I feel that it is such a good thing that I'd probably delete
if the randomness were removed. In fact, this is the only issue
in the game that I can think of that I feel that strongly
about and have felt that strongly about for years.

>I couldn't imagine being a warrior getting random
>specializations or random legacies. Could you? That's what
>you're suggesting and what's currently in play for
>shapeshifters.

People get random specs or legacies as RP bonuses, but let's
not be silly for a moment.

Let me tell you a little more where I'm coming from.

The progression of the shapeshifter is, to some degree, the magical
equivalent of the 'vision quest', but the expression of the totem
animal(s) is both internal and external.

I'm sure every kid out on Hanblecheyapi was hoping that the great
totem would speak to them through something cool like the bear or
wolf, but sometimes the universe speaks to you through a squirrel.
That's just part of the heroic journey and you have to give
yourself up to it before you even start on that path. It's magic!

I understand your position, and I understand why a player would
like to have things work that way. I'm even ok with a one-time
random do-over edge (and have in the past gambled with shapeshifters
for their forms against the opportunity to do so), but to allow
players to choose forms would, to me, ruin my favorite part of
the game. I hope there's enough choice out there that people
who want that kind of structure can find it elsewhere.

Anyone will tell you that I'm a big fan of transparency and love
to write helpfiles so people know what they're getting and getting
into. Except this. Not this one thing.

I don't think you're wrong, or that anyone with that position is
wrong (though I have some issues with their reasoning), but in my
case I'm actually defending something I really love about the game.

Q

>I feel that it is such a good thing that I'd probably delete
>if the randomness were removed. In fact, this is the only
>issue
>in the game that I can think of that I feel that strongly
>about and have felt that strongly about for years.

But if the randmoness will stay, other will delete :(
Here is a fresh-deleted shifter Rhoan (deleted yesterday):

baekthestorm
January 08, 2008 08:03AM
I was offense major, defense minor. I was happy with my grizzled ram final form, but people praised the Pachyderm to me, but I don't have the a/b/s knowledge to make it anymore than an annoyance to anyone. Slavers still kicked my ass even with 'voker shields so...bleh. If I roll another shifter, I am going with utility/utility or utility/water. My last shifter was utility/water and I loved it. Walrus friggin rocks!

But this time round, my defensive forms were clouded leopard, polar bear and Pachyderm. My second tier offensive form dodged better than the leopard, or at least equally as well. The only thing the leopard had going for it was being able to forestblend, ambush, always sneaking and forestscatter. Nice set of skills to compliment an inferior form.

Polar bear was not so bad, but once again, I needed to have a bard or healer with me to make it any use to me. Snowblend, resistant to cold, all-in-all not a bad form. But I would have taken the bobcat/hare over it any day. At least then it'd be useful for ranking. Otherwise, it's inferior for my play style.

Pachyerm had the potential to be good, but as I said, my knowledge of a/b/s killed it for me. I hunted for my wands but I only know so many places to look for them yet, and none of them held mine. So, I was boned. This is what killed the character for me, honestly. I was hoping for croc, or mongoose at this tier and when I got neither I was all but disheartened. Oh well, maybe next time.


Well, I'm actually just kidding. There are people who like big random factors to their character's design and there are those who don't. And it will not be right to blame any of them, the problem is that it's tricky to make them all happy.

>People get random specs or legacies as RP bonuses, but let's
>not be silly for a moment.

Random specs are about as silly as random forms. Both are major parts of a class design. They both are either silly together or both aren't silly at all.

>>I feel that it is such a good thing that I'd probably
>delete
>>if the randomness were removed. In fact, this is the only
>>issue
>>in the game that I can think of that I feel that strongly
>>about and have felt that strongly about for years.
>
>But if the randmoness will stay, other will delete :(

They might delete their characters, but would probably roll up
something again. I'd be out for good.

>>People get random specs or legacies as RP bonuses, but let's
>>not be silly for a moment.
>
>Random specs are about as silly as random forms. Both are
>major parts of a class design. They both are either silly
>together or both aren't silly at all.

I don't agree that argument is a valid one, and I support the
revamping and rebalancing of forms over what I consider the
destruction of the core of the class.

>They might delete their characters, but would probably roll up
>something again. I'd be out for good.

You'd be out of shapeshifters for good, yes. There would be other classes to roll.

If you're saying no other class has this element of randomness for you, I happily point you to a properly labelled dartboard and a blindfold for the warrior, thief, ranger classes and invoker affinities.

I personally don't touch this class partly because of a lack of versatility and the randomness factor only makes one giddy once or twice.

After that it's '500tnl. Watch my form suck ass. Aaaayep.' or even better, 'I didn't get a form the last two levels. 500 tnl. Watch my form suck. Aaaaayep.'

So I can see why Dwoggurd can make a strong argument for the randomness to go away, and Magus is making an ass of himself again by demanding to know why his point-of-view hasn't been implemented immediately because it's the 'most logical' one.

But I also fail to understand why they both are demanding the re-pick edge AND a full shifter customization system prior to seeing how the shapeshifter balancing shakes out. (Quite possibly they are pressing their arguments this hard due to the randomness of the class would make balancing this take even longer quite possibly in the realm of years.)

I understand the 'pickers' argument far better than the 'gamblers' argument, and very seriously doubt the gamblers have as much to lose on this as you claim Qaledus. My opinion sides with the pickers even if they are being unfairly self-entitled about the arguments for it from a lack of patience.

>You'd be out of shapeshifters for good, yes. There would be
>other classes to roll.

None of them would have the random dynamic.

>If you're saying no other class has this element of randomness
>for you, I happily point you to a properly labelled dartboard
>and a blindfold for the warrior, thief, ranger classes and
>invoker affinities.

Honestly... no. The randomness has to be part of the system and it needs to be something that everyone who plays the class deals with, or it doesn't work. The whole dynamic changes dramatically. (If it wouldn't, people wouldn't want it.)

>I personally don't touch this class partly because of a lack
>of versatility and the randomness factor only makes one giddy
>once or twice.

I'm about in the same way. I play a shapeshifter once in a great while because I'm more in the picker camp myself as a player.

However, I accept that there are many other classes that suit my style more, and I don't demand that everyone should enjoy the game exactly the way I do. (Except when I do demand that, but that's an imm-hat thing and not a player-hat thing.)

I really like that some people love invokers and some people never play them, that some people love empowerment classes and some people never play them, that some people love warriors or thieves or conjurers and some people never play them. I would rather have a bunch of classes where maybe you only like five of them, but you REALLY like them, than a bunch of classes where everyone thinks most of them are okay.

>I understand the 'pickers' argument far better than the
>'gamblers' argument, and very seriously doubt the gamblers
>have as much to lose on this as you claim Qaledus.

I disagree. (Naturally!)

More than any other class except perhaps warriors (a class very oriented to the picker mindset), shapeshifters have the most players who serially play shapeshifter, either for every character or let's say more than half their characters. If you ask those players why they love the class, you almost always hear one or two of the following reasons:

1) Low gear dependence. (E.g., "I like that I can die and get right back in there" or "I like that I can just level and I don't need to worry about my gear too much" or whatever)

2) Randomness. (E.g., "I like the surprise of finding out what my forms are, or not knowing exactly when I'll get them." or "I like that I have as good a chance to get a good mix of forms as anyone" or some other statement to the effect that random = fun.)

I would be really loathe to screw too much with the core attraction of this class, alienating a bunch of players who enjoy it as-is and may not enjoy ANY other class in the game, to please a group of players who already have several classes that they love.

For just a moment, let's take out the thought you have that peole love the randomness of the class. It's non-existant for this conversation. Could you make a reasonable argument for why the class has to have the random dynamic it has from a gameplay standpoint (e.g. balance factor).

Al ot of repeat Shifter players are those who are rolling the dice to get the forms they want. I know I've rolled countless trying to get Porcupine or Tiger and I always used to get Ram and Anaconda or worse Lemur. I agree with you that allowing you to pick your forms would ruin the class, but I think there should be one chance to reroll a form as a *LOW* cost edge that you can only pick once. Making it a super expensive edge is pointless because people will have long had their forms before they can use it. What I don't understand is why you have to wait till ALL the edges are ready for shifters, can't you have some mercy on us gamblers and just put in the one *very important* edge for now? Because we both know it probably will be another year at least before we see shifter edges come in.

You're taking my point of view way out of context. I provided my side of the argument, only to be demonized by Zulg and Daevryn. They provided no actual answers or anything meaningful. Only criticism. But I'm used to seeing results like that from the staff.

What I am saying is why does the rechoose "edge," or however they intended it to be, have to wait until the revamp is "complete?"

I am saying shifters are broken now, in the respect that randomness can screw a shapeshifter over.

Offense, Defense and Utility shapeshifters have been revamped. Am I wrong in saying they are "done" in terms of balancing? Because if they are, then that goal, in my opinion, falls short. Which is why I am saying they are broken, still. Good efforts, but still broken, within the post revamped forms.

And yes, I know that I am a sucker for having thought the changes would make them balanced. But after my third one, I don't plan to touch this class until some capability to rechoose forms is available in some way or another. I personally think the option should be available sooner than later.

>Let me tell you a little more where I'm coming from.
>
>The progression of the shapeshifter is, to some degree, the
>magical
>equivalent of the 'vision quest', but the expression of the
>totem
>animal(s) is both internal and external.
>
>I'm sure every kid out on Hanblecheyapi was hoping that the
>great
>totem would speak to them through something cool like the bear
>or
>wolf, but sometimes the universe speaks to you through a
>squirrel.
>That's just part of the heroic journey and you have to give
>yourself up to it before you even start on that path. It's
>magic!
>

That's a pretty cool explanation of why randomness makes sense. Maybe the helpfiles could contain a paragraph about how the specific animal forms a shifter gains is somehow related to an inherent animal spirits or some such thing and thus is beyond the control of the mage. This could be tied into the focus command as the limits of the shapeshifting schools ability to control the shifting process. Just my thoughts, I like the vision quest analogy. :)

Leave the randomness alone people, please. nt

I can't decide if you're intentionally presenting a straw man or if you actually believe this.

I pretend to be one when somebody is trying to feed me with not-so-fresh arguments :)

People enjoy randomness on a level playing field (such as it is) with other people.

This is a rather strong statement.
I personally don't. I'm also thinking that you personally don't enjoy randomness as well (though I may be wrong).
Probably there are people who truly enjoy randomness but there are also a lot of players who would vote for random forms just to avoid power combos invasion. Randomness can hide the problem but does it solve it? It is like liches or APs with big weapons, they are imbalanced but rare, so it "looks" balanced. Perhaps better solution is to address the root of the problem (balance forms)? I understand that it can't be done very quickly, but without making first step you will never get the second one.

>People enjoy randomness on a level playing field (such as
>it is) with other people.
>
>This is a rather strong statement.
>I personally don't.

I mean to say, the people who enjoy the randomness part of the shifter class.

You're trying to suggest a solution that works for them, but really you don't understand what they want at all and you're just suggesting a solution that works for you.

that people like randomness as much as you think they do.

I think there are two major mindsets with one minor mindset:

A) People who actually play shapeshifters and want the same customization as warriors, so they can plan their character's future.

B) People who never/rarely play shapeshifters, and don't want people to pick supposed "power" combo's. Problem here is those people are friggin ignorant if they think every shifter will all of a sudden be one of these power combo's. (This isn't a real scenario, but just one example) Let's say everyone hates the armadillo, and no one wanted it. But then comes along a character (like me -- Auglaize) who wants the armadillo as a scribe/acolyte, so I could fly to people and rescue them, thus being more acolyte-y. Yes, there are power combo warriors, but that doesn't mean every warrior is a power combo. Same applies to shapeshifters. You're fooling yourself if you believe otherwise.

C) The minority being the people who actually do like randomness. I'm willing to bet this number is closer to about 5-10% of the CF playerbase.



Guesstimates:

A = 30-40% of the playerbase. Remember, these are the people actually utilizing the class.

B = 50%-60% of the playerbase.

C = 5%-10% of the playerbase.

n/t

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,3440,3440#msg-3440

And yet...I could create a different poll with answers skewed another way and come up with a completely different interpretation. Welcome to statistics.

You probably can't make even more biased poll that the one in the link above :)
It's already very biased towards "random lovers" option because even if people don't truly like random forms they still may push that button because they don't want customized forms rigth now (when forms aren't well balanced yet) afraiding that players will flood CF with power combos.

>It's already very biased towards "random lovers" option
>because even if people don't truly like random forms they
>still may push that button

As discussed above, this is just a stupid statement. It's beneath you.

You seem to be laboring under the belief that it would be harder on a coder to let people pick forms, vs. assign them randomly in the semi-complex way that they currently are. I don't see that as being the case.

I didn't mean to be troll/offensive. I just don't share the belief that most people like randomness in forms intself. Sure, there are those who like it and there are those who would prefer customize their characters. I'm not convinced that the first group is bigger, so if you base on that assumption you should be very careful (especially when you refuse to make any poll on that).
After some discussion on a certain forum I've found that some people like random, some don't truly like it but with the current form balance they believe it's better to keep that random to avoid massive power combos intrusion, they actually don't mind to switch to custom forms one they are balanced. There are also those who would like to see customizable forms even with the current forms and believe that balance issues aren't extremily big and can be fixed along the way.

I'm also a programmer, so I'm damn aware what is hard to code and what is not. Custom forms aren't hard to code, but they should be accompanied with balanced forms and this part is more tricky.

I actually appreciate that you guys finally started the shifter's revamp, it's much better than before. But I'm also a perfectionist :) so I want even more (not that I truly expect that to happen). After all, IMHO warriors is the best CF class in terms of design and shifters at this point are a bit worse, there is alot of room for improvement.

I also see the idea for the refocus edge. But what problem this edge is supposed to solve? Right, exactly the problem that probably shouldn't be created in first place.

I didn't mean to be troll/offensive.

I don't happen to believe you, but that's me.

Nonetheless, you're probably going to have to live with the fact that after you've gone the troll route a couple hundred times, people are going to assume you're continuing to do so, unless you go out of your way to write posts that don't look very much like trolls.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>Nonetheless, you're probably going to have to live with the
>fact that after you've gone the troll route a couple hundred
>times, people are going to assume you're continuing to do so,
>unless you go out of your way to write posts that don't look
>very much like trolls.

Not all people are going to assume that I'm trolling. I don't have that problem with majority of the playerbase. But I also noticed that a selective group of readers usually pervert my key points because they are often somewhat revolutionary and probably missed at first glance. Then they start to blame for things I didn't even mean to say and I, sometimes, return the favor (my fault).

Your problem is that you're looking for a logical explanation. There's an explanation, its just not logical. In other words, you suggest why can't some people pick and everyone else have random forms if that's what they wish (which is a logical answer to the "people like randomness" thing), and you expect to get a rational reason why it'd be bad to make it that way.

You won't get that answer because they won't admit that there are forms that no one in their right mind would want. You can't say its "lucky" to get a good form in one breath without admitting there's the chance of being "unlucky" and getting a bad form.

But they won't come out and say sometimes you get bad luck and wind up with a gimped character. So you may as well not bother.