Just wanted to bring up some of the ideas some people have been tossing around, to try to garner some kind of similar power level between the Evil and Light sides of CF's pk.

Paladins have always been strong characters from the get-go, but while their evil-only counterparts can gain immense strength the longer they remain alive (and a lot of uber-evil gear) it seems Paladins fall far short once they reach the level of 'Defiance and a third virtue'. We've all seen Niheriva in her hay-day, and we've all seen the log in which Ravon pretty much walked over her like so many smudges on his road to... wherever it is he wants to walk really. With serious caps on Paladins power (even extra virtues need mana to fuel them) they can more easily (not easily, but more easily) reach quite a powerful height. But even at that height an average joe has a pretty good shot at them. I saw Lariya get beaten hard and retreat many a time, sometimes with only one good defender. And she had the bonus of perma-haste.

So how is it that we can justify allowing such a limitless cap on evil power, without giving any good aligns something similar? The counter-argument to this has always been good roleplay. That by being a united team, without any of the hassles of holding power in a backstabbing world, they are naturally stronger through their allies. While it's cute and all in theory, in practice it really doesn't hold a candle to the kind of power a Necromancer or Anti-paladin can gain.

The other argument is that these kinds of power-houses don't often arise. Maybe vigilance on the part of Fortress plays it's part, but with lower playerbase numbers the problems behind keeping down conservative hard-ass evils (especially with classes like the Paladin, which while strong is one of the worst at kill-sealing) are really becoming obvious. Maybe the fact there are fewer people with the specific talents needed to gank these guys is a problem. Is it part of, or a major cause? What's your view?

The other idea that's been kicked around a lot is having a good-style alternative to Hell. The 'heaven' area in which good-aligns can get the kind of strong evil-only gear that evils can acquire. The argument behind that kind of gear-power is that goodies have much more motivation to work together to get it. But at the same time, even Niheriva or Lariya at their peaks were far from invincible - and even quite vulnerable if you knew their vulnerabilities or had just taken the liberty of sacrificing defiance/their neat loot. So how is it we can scale Paladin power in a way that is fair to those who work so hard to acquire Zorszaul's patented 'Critical Mass'?

Opinions?

I've always been able to compete equally as a goodie and an evil, though I would perhaps consider giving a few specific classes a bit more oomph as a goodie (assassin, for instance, since so many evils can see them effectively many of their foes are immune to their greatest advantage). I don't think more elite gear is an answer to chars like Ravon (consider gear like that in the hands of goodies when there was no Ravon-esque chars around).

I think the real issue is if you nerf AP's :

1) You'll never be able to "roll the next Cabdru".
2) You're eliminating really months of work for that character.
3) Its a very difficult achievement, one that rightfully deserves the type of power it wields.
4) You'll be taking something unique and interesting out of the game and replacing it with boredom.

I think the proper answer would be to leave it alone, but look into whether or not how these people got to this point was equitable and the way it should have been. If its because some edge/skill combination is overpowered then that should be addressed.

It should be something exceedinly rare but impressive when its around.

It might make sense to have certain chars not drain con from you when they kill you though. Especially when there's like an 80% chance of them one shotting you when you try to retrieve. I'm thinking of ragers here, who could condie pretty easily if they tried to defend against Ravon/Cabdru types of chars.

nt

Niheriva didn't prep properly. She had all the tools needed to kill Ravon (or Victoria), even now.

Bear in mind that Ravon's rise to strength included a lot of charges that future AP's won't get. e.g. charges where his curse prevented healers from communing, thus leaving groups to die etc.

Otherwise I think the super god characters need to get toned down.

nt

Few steps that could help in this:

-Upper limits for anti-paladin's power.
-Gank code not working against hugely overpowered characters.
-Nerf ridiculously powerful items. Example: No thief detect hidden from a mask, detect hidden in this room is enough.

An AP can then gain more benefit from the first few charges in terms of +hp/mana and +hit/dam. Then once they start to get higher, their soul intake for a single charge goes up. This means we have a curve, where those that have recently been beaten can quickly gain a comfortable mass (50 charges from 12-14 kills) while those that begin to steam-roller find it harder and harder to push their power (breaking 100-150 charges, it's like working uphill. 15 kills nets an average 12 charges). From then on it diminishes more and more, your weapon storing partial charges from characters who begin to be worth nothing - while the heavy hitters will still yield a good two charges.

This way, AP's can get used to the kind of death we're all used to (even liches, who take that heavy con-hit) and still come-back with a bit of determination. But don't end up being truly and unfairly OP.

Yhorian.

Ravon went down with two other people(one of which died on the way) and he and I spent the better part of 4 hours double teaming the mob that has the detect hidden item. That mob is so nasty that the power the item yields is about right. If you're going to tone down the power of these items, you better nerf the power of the mobs by a LOT. Because sure, these things look OP in pk situations but the mobs are tough as nails.

I always thought something equivalent to charges would be cool for paladins.....although someone will probably bring up druids/neutrals needing loving as well - and they don't need any kind of help.

Maybe something like everytime a paladin kills with his wrath his wrath gets stronger? Same with strikes? Like a specific move, so it's not tied to gear...and the only way to clear the slate is for them to die.

Most paladins get ALL their kills with wrath, because they just spam wrath.

I don't think spamming one skill means it deserves to get stronger. Even Ravon doesn't just spam lashes.

nt

Having had a handful of hero paladins I think they're fine as is. I felt overpowered with crap gear, maran powers and 2 virtues. If I'd have had hell gear & defiance I'd have been ridiculously overpowered as it was.

I just don't think paladins are non-powerful right now.

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