Without going into specifics, am I correct in assuming thieves are going to go the direction of several powerful, specialized and expensive edges? Like the kind just under elemental heritage or Champion of Man or some of the stronger bard edges? Are there going to be expensive edges that will convert edge points to thief points the same as trains?

Thieves haven't been under the spotlight too much lately other than a lively, brief discussion comparing and contrasting thugs to assassins. I personally feel thugs can make more kills and put out more damage faster, but assassins can match up better against every class in the game at all levels.

But mostly I've observed the opinion they aren't viable at hero with the exception of binder. Poisoners tend to be very passive (though I haven't observed a poisoner at 51 to see how many points they have to spare) and thug's damage output stops mattering at 51 when people aren't preoccupied with ranking. Also nodisarm weapons, while not plentiful, end up somewhere close to the norm on anyone actually worth killing, whilst cheap shot's new success rate and parting block's sub-par (but not necessarily crappy) success rate lets even the most screwed non-flying classes escape, sometimes on foot.

So is there a sample of what some of the abilities to be improved by thief edges on the table? I'm asking for more a general musing on perception versus reality for this class and it's potential path combinations as well as edges possibly along the lines of improvements to:

cheap shot, especially to fire on weapon trip if it doesn't already
parting block (especially improving the success rate on flying opponents)
knife (cause bleeding)
thief bindings, specifically things like gag, blindfold or tie hands to maybe cause minor damage if the opponent escapes from them
dirt kick to have abilities different from a bedouin's, stackable low duration -chr perhaps
Bribe Mercenary to include tribunal special guards and centurions
shopkeepers favors or eye of avarice or allow thieves to gague a merchant's funds sans what he has in the bank with either an edge, enough commerce exp to unlock the edge, or both
fence
city ties
weapon trip, possibly to do some neat tricks using a whip causing effects similar to cross-down parry at the cost of wielding a weapon they don't know, or do -dex or -chr
weapon nick to increase the occurence of neurological poison's effects if it hits a major artery or vein such as the neck or wrist or elbow, but don't do -chr because we have faceslash
grenade
weapon butt blackjack to possibly include knife if it fails
payment of the coward to include grapple if grapple/separate/payment have the requisite skill percents
earclap to include a loud yell or something to mitigate the effect of headgear
Gut shot to have an ability similar to a dagger spec's twist with the same drawback, potentially breaking the dagger to add some moderate -dex without causing damage
grapple to include spitting to increase the chance the opponent will simply fumble the weapon but also to add -chr

The thief is sorely lacking some -dex abilities short of going binder or trapper especially with evade ruining some especially cruical moments that are more important for the thief than any other class, and could use some expensive edges to cause it. The thief also lacks options against a conjurer with servitors (You don't want to use grapple against 1-2 of a conjurers servitors 5-10 levels ahead of you), so the -chr wouldn't really improve the matchup but make it less dangerous for the thief to eat a pillar of lightning at the start of combat from a very pleased servitor (it's happened to me before, with svirfnebli conjurer using an angel no less and I was neutral) and make it less dangerous to fight a hero level bard that is flying for non-thug/binder thieves.

>Without going into specifics, am I correct in assuming
>thieves are going to go the direction of several powerful,
>specialized and expensive edges?

Too early to say. I've seen/had very, very few thief edge ideas I like -- less than for any class, in fact.

>Are there going to be expensive edges that will
>convert edge points to thief points the same as trains?

Maybe. This was one of my original thief edge ideas, though I'm not completely sold on it.

>Thieves haven't been under the spotlight too much lately other
>than a lively, brief discussion comparing and contrasting
>thugs to assassins. I personally feel thugs can make more
>kills and put out more damage faster, but assassins can match
>up better against every class in the game at all levels.

My opinion is similar. Assassins match up better against a wider variety of opponents; thug thieves are deadly to a narrower range of characters (although this includes some characters an assassin doesn't fight well), but their deadliness to those characters is incredible.

Any kind of thief, played well, is a character I would seriously worry about at hero with any character no matter what they were. The more powerhouse the character, the lower the odds of losing my gear in PK, and the relatively greater the odds that a thief (even if I can see him) can run up, snag one absolutely priceless item, and get away alive. That's just one simple example that doesn't require a great deal of creativity or even any thief path skills to execute.

>But mostly I've observed the opinion they aren't viable at
>hero with the exception of binder. Poisoners tend to be very
>passive (though I haven't observed a poisoner at 51 to see how
>many points they have to spare) and thug's damage output stops
>mattering at 51 when people aren't preoccupied with ranking.
>Also nodisarm weapons, while not plentiful, end up somewhere
>close to the norm on anyone actually worth killing, whilst
>cheap shot's new success rate and parting block's sub-par (but
>not necessarily crappy) success rate lets even the most
>screwed non-flying classes escape, sometimes on foot.

Cheap shot has as much killing potential as ever. Really!

>So is there a sample of what some of the abilities to be
>improved by thief edges on the table? I'm asking for more a
>general musing on perception versus reality for this class and
>it's potential path combinations as well as edges possibly
>along the lines of improvements to:

As before, not a lot out there yet that I actually like.

Much like with other edges, edges that improve auto skills probably aren't going to do a whole lot for their cost, and edges that improve already very good abilities are either going to be very expensive, do little, and/or improve it in a sort of lateral way. For example, you'd probably be more likely to see a decently-priced edge that'd improve the damage of cheap shot than one that'd improve its lagging power or success rate.

>Much like with other edges, edges that improve auto skills probably >aren't going to do a whole lot for their cost, and edges that improve >already very good abilities are either going to be very expensive, do >little, and/or improve it in a sort of lateral way. For example, you'd >probably be more likely to see a decently-priced edge that'd improve >the damage of cheap shot than one that'd improve its lagging power or >success rate.


Oh, of course. It just seems like that lateral improvements are exactly what the class would want, as in the extra -chr suggestions and such (though I can see where the -dex are all improvements on powerful abilities). Death strike and strike of the abandoned for instance aren't skills I see very much hope for, since they only work when your opponents are already screwed so I didn't suggest any edges for them. Which is fine, but often if that's the case you're equally beat up against any class that can deal consistent yet somewhat variable DPS or rather damage per round. It could be a matter of not playing thug thief correctly if your fights are getting that close, but I'm not so sure the abilities even help when you do play correctly in group combat. I guess as a thug thief you want someone your opponents are actually trying to kill more than you in your group to distract them such as a healer, bard, muter, paladin, shaman etc.

But I'm not interested in increasing the versatility of the class, the lack of versatility is the exact weakness you pay for in picking it over assassin. I suppose your idea of 'winning' with a thief though is stealing that limited item rather than making the class something that can get around the reason that other rather hard to kill toe-to-toe melee classes are hard to kill, such as the nodisarm weaponry or the fact that if you tank poorly you're out of luck against seeing the corpse of that conjie anytime soon. I guess I feel that if you lack versatility, shouldn't you be trying to see the corpse of your opponent rather than stealing items and being an annoying prick? You're already only a mediocre tank for ranking at best especially above 40 and since mobs have ubergodly HP your annihilate backstabs and demolish knifes aren't impressing anyone when fighting mobs you can't flee from or who assist often and bash etc.

Though I will say a thug thief is very handy on Calandryl when you can deal with the constant having to uncurse items in your inventory thing, and just give them lots of damroll to make up for the fact that they are using their fists.

Perhaps we will see some edges to make the brawling skill more than flavor text/skills for thug thieves using grapple and separate? Possibly putting some of those dirty fighting skills to use against dagger specs and assassins? (though an actual thug should have no trouble against these already generally)




"I have to admit I hate pretty much all of these ideas. :)" - Nepenthe, on New Ranger Skills

>It could be a matter of not
>playing thug thief correctly if your fights are getting that
>close,

Generally I'd agree with this. Actually I'd generally agree with this for any of the stealth classes.

>I suppose your idea of
>'winning' with a thief though is stealing that limited item

Depends. If I can take a bunch of priceless items from a character that gangs of three or four are running like hell from, yes, I'd call that a win.

If only a kill is a victory to you, then thief is probably not the right class for you, even though many thieves can be very deadly.

>rather than making the class something that can get around the
>reason that other rather hard to kill toe-to-toe melee classes
>are hard to kill, such as the nodisarm weaponry or the fact

Nodisarm weaponry doesn't feel unfair to thieves to me, having played that fight from both sides.

>that if you tank poorly you're out of luck against seeing the
>corpse of that conjie anytime soon.

I agree that thief vs. conjurer is an extremely hard match-up to win given two high-end players... where we disagree is that I think it's extremely hard to win for the conjurer in almost all cases.

Even for a class that might have poor man's access to detect hidden, hide in a skilled player's hands is just so overpowering. If you have servitors I don't think I can beat (or last long enough against), you're probably not going to get to fight me -- until I see or engineer an opening to get in there and make it count.

>I guess I feel that if you
>lack versatility, shouldn't you be trying to see the corpse of
>your opponent rather than stealing items and being an annoying
>prick?

Again, if you see stealing from someone as a griefing tactic beneath you, you're probably playing the wrong class if you picked thief, just as people who think sleep is a cheap spell are playing the wrong class if they picked necromancer. Stealing isn't the be-all and end-all of the class, but there's a reason the class is called thief and not groin-kicker. It is a powerful, versatile ability that they pretty much have a monopoly on.

Damn, man. Thief is the only class in the game where recovering from a full loot is actually fun.

>You're already only a mediocre tank for ranking at best
>especially above 40 and since mobs have ubergodly HP your
>annihilate backstabs and demolish knifes aren't impressing
>anyone when fighting mobs you can't flee from or who assist
>often and bash etc.

Yeah, a thief is a hard character to level for a lot of level ranges and depending on specialization choices, no doubt.

Edit: Okay, that's a complete sentence now. Go go gadget grammar!

>>Yeah, a thief is a hard character to level for a lot of level ranges and depending on specialization choices, no doubt.<<

I'm working on what would could be a fair edge list for thieves that I'll submit, but this sentence struck me. How would you feel about a bunch of edges for any class that typically has trouble ranking, to help them rank better (i.e. more desirable groupmates). As it is, why take on a thief, who may steal your crap, when you could just bring in a dagger spec warrior (since they're a dime a dozen anyway).

I always invited theives to rank with me in hopes that they would be a little less likely to blackjack me the next time I was walking down eastern.

That, and... if I'm a character that doesn't have detect hidden, all things being equal I'll try like hell to make friends who do.

I'm willing to consider edges that help thieves rank better, as long as they're not ONLY good for that. As a general rule I don't want to put in edges that become completely useless at hero. Even Apt Learner has the possibility of ImmXp to keep it worth something.