Ok, I have been playing this game since 1999 and first and foremost I would like to say that I thoroughly enjoy everything that has changed, and look forwards to being here for quite some time. But, unfortuantely, during that entire time I have been playing, I have never been able to make it to lvl 51. Yes, yes, I know, pitiful, but for some reason, unlike other games, I just cannot seem to get that edge over other players that most veterans would have by now.

So, I am asking all players and IMMstaff, if you are interested, please give me all the advice you can aside from "read the helpfiles." since I have done that a gillion times now and know all the basics, but still can't figure out the more advanced things.

Not looking for quest info, or where to get items, but more along the lines of what other people do to get ready for PK, to help them exploore, to create good roles, to gather edge points and spend them accordingly, what to look for in terms of areas to learn in. Things like that.

I come to you in desperation folks, I truly wish to see what it is to be a hero, and finally admitted to myself that only after gathering as much help as I could, would I be able to do it. Leraning on my own hasn't helped. Help me! :)

Okay, I have a bit similar problems so will share my point of view

Success in PK:
My character is a totally unbeatable beast and even IMMs logout in terror when I awake. This will be in a future. To prepare myself for this I am playing now with chars that are good in exploring. You should know what gear to get, where preps are and so on.

Success in exploring:
Play bard/good conjurer/defensive warrior. That what I am doing.
They all are really welcome in groups. Bard has good support songs and can tank in some cases. Conjurer past 35 and warrior are good tanks and deal good damage as well. So its pretty easy to rank. And they still good in exploring. Trannie is welcome in groups and can explore (just explore, not get all those shinies) in duo. Do not play offensive classes - axe spec or offens. shifters. Do not play mages who need preps.

Empowerment classes are have strict code of behaviour and enemies. And it consumes time, so I do not suggest them.

So you rank to past 40th and can start exploring even alone. With invoker/offensive shifter it will be easy, funnier, and not so boring cos you have a companion to chat and discuss something with.

Success in RP:
I personally start to play without any RP, and my role is drawing in all details during game. I let IC events to create and shape my role. Usually I start to understand a personality of my char at 30s ranks. Then I start to write role, RP and so on. At this time you can PK, you may have some friends and enemies, so life is not leveling only at this point, but many fun things as well.

If you have been beated by someone who has better gear or skill, dont be dissapointed. Hunt in groups with good leader. Yes, ganking is bad, but many times its the only way for semi newbies, like we are :)

Success in fun:
you should pick your class/race keeping in mind OOC goals you wish to achieve, what makes fun for you: explore alone and many RP - try Herald? many fights and help others? Bard/paladin/healer in Fortress. Study a thief's system, and unusual PK style alone? Try thief binder/trapper

Hey thanks for all the info, I appreciate all the help you're giving here. :)

>But, unfortuantely, during that entire
>time I have been playing, I have never been able to make it to
>lvl 51.

Best way to make it to 51: don't delete. It also helps to play a class that's popular with ranking groups.

>what other people do to get ready for PK

Choosing the right time to strike is a big part of it. Especially if I'm playing a stealth class. As far as preps go it really depends on the class. With melee classes I might try to have up protection vs. alignment, and maybe resist heat or cold if I expect my opponent to use those. Flight if I'm going into a fight where I need to fear trip. (Usually if I can out-melee my opponent I don't put up flight, since him spamming trip is actually *good* for me.) Reduce or enlarge if it would be beneficial.

Oh, I also have a bunch of aliases defined so that I never have to type my opponent's name. I might have "t" set to "trip BadGuy". That's handy. Sucks when I'm blinded, though.

>to help them exploore

Exploring's not really rocket science. Have return/teleport potions handy if your class can't cast it. Be good about scanning & looking in directions. If you're trying to explore somewhere really dangerous, it helps to assemble the right group of adventurers. I'd wager that 90% of players learn tough areas when they're led there by another player who already knows the area pretty well. That's certainly the case for me.

>to create good roles

Doesn't have to be fancy. Or even crazily creative. Just write down the key events from your character's past that are likely to influence his current mindset and actions. Then make sure to actually *follow through* on the role.

>to gather edge points and spend them accordingly

Edge points come mostly from imm xp, though there are also skill% and stat prerequisites. The best way to get imm xp is to win or place in a role contest, or maybe to play an empowerment class and impress your deity. Can usually also get some if you enter your role early on, like in the first 5 ranks.

As for how to spend your edge points...I just looked at the helpfiles for all the edges my class could get, picked some I wanted to get, then chose them as they became available. At one point the edge I wanted wasn't appearing in my list despite my having lots of points, so I assumed my stats weren't up to snuff and chose something else instead.

>what to look for in terms of areas to learn in

Also not rocket science. You want someplace that lets you earn XP as quickly as possible. Preferably also somewhere you're not likely to be found by people who want to kill you. Or, if they can find you, you want it so you're able to see them coming. As an example, consider the chess board. If you have the key then nobody can get up onto the board to attack you. And if you have a character in your group with locate object then you be absolutely certain you have the only copy of the key.

All very good, thanks very much for the input. :)

You've received great advice below on "how to become a hero." You counter those arguments with stuff like "yeah but other guys have better eq" or "but with that combo won't I be terrible at PK?" and that sort of thing. So...is this thread about heroing? Or "being successful"? Because the two are not the same. I've had several hero chars who were intensely bleh. I've had several non-hero chars that were an absolute *blast* to play.

If the real thing you want is a char who people remember for months/years, then I suggest you follow the advice of the guy who said pick something interesting to you and play it until it dies. You will hero. You will be remembered (for a while).

----You've received great advice below on "how to become a hero." You counter those arguments with stuff like "yeah but other guys have better eq" or "but with that combo won't I be terrible at PK?" and that sort of thing. So...is this thread about heroing? Or "being successful"?


Well, as I said in the very first post of this thread:

:::::Not looking for quest info, or where to get items, but more along the lines of what other people do to get ready for PK, to help them explore, to create good roles, to gather edge points and spend them accordingly, what to look for in terms of areas to learn in. Things like that.:::::

And luckily that is what I am getting back in responce. So to answer you in part, yes I am looking for answer on how to 'be successful', but apart from that, I was also interested in the other things that I mentioned in the post above as well, (part of which was advice on heroing, exploration, pk battles, etc.).


Also, the "yeah but the other guys have better EQ," and, " but wont that combo be terrible at PK" is only the basic gist of the responce that I gave. Apart from that, those aren't the full 'arguments', but rather lead ins to further questions that try and get more information. Looking back on what I posted, I was actually asking how other players respond to that type of situation (gear choices, and pk abilities). Do they consider those types of problems when they are making their character? Is a class that can Hide/sn/camo/invis etc, better to help counteract huge gaps in gear power? Or would it make more sense to go with something that can merely go toe to toe with whatever it is so I don't get rocked too hard right out of the gate?

It if sounded like it was coming off as whiny, that was not my intention at all. I merely stated things that had been happening to me, and was curious how some players might choose their class and pk situations based on similar scenarios. My apologies if I didn't make that clear in other posts. :)


---If the real thing you want is a char who people remember for months/years, then I suggest you follow the advice of the guy who said pick something interesting to you and play it until it dies. You will hero. You will be remembered (for a while).


Very true, and I agree with both you and the guy who mentioned it as well.

I'll be the first to say that the game doesn't begin at hero and, in fact, is often more fun for me pre-hero. But, that being said, it is helpful to have played in the hero range for a while and have a sense for what the game looks like 'up there' no matter what you're playing.

First question: how close have you come so far, and with what kinds of characters? That'll give us a better sense of what kind of advice you need.

Some general advice... and keeping in mind, this is my advice on optimizing leveling, which is not how I generally recommend playing the game and is not how I play the game myself:

- Pick a character that eliminates less potential groupmates whenever possible. An evil Outlander shapeshifter can't group with (and will generally be hunted by) characters affiliated with Battle, Tribunal, Empire, Scion, Fortress, all goods, Nexus half the time, etc. That's going to make putting together a group and getting some XP hard. Conversely, something like an uncaballed neutral human warrior has a lot of choices and few built-in enemies. Characters like these will often be easier to level.

- Generally, I think good-aligned characters are the easiest to level fast. Fortress and the good alignment in general has much more of a 'must hero' culture than other cabals/alignments -- even if you're terrible, sooner or later someone will want you as a third. Neutral is generally easier for a lot of players than evil -- even though it doesn't have the XP bonus of good or evil, at least it keeps your grouping options more open (see above).

- Caballed or not is a subject of some controversy; some people think it's better to be uncaballed since you won't have cabal business to slow you down; others that it's better to be caballed so you have allies to help you level. I'm more in the caballed is better camp, but I also don't want to play a character and race to hero full time generally, so take that with a grain of salt -- I'd rather spend less of my time actually leveling and have it go faster.

- Generally, it's better to pick a class that is useful/desirable in a group. Getting groupmates is a lot easier as a healer, bard, warrior who can actually tank, etc. than a necromancer or air shifter.

- If you can't be useful to your group, at least strive to not be a lead weight around their neck. This will help you stay with groups longer and get more good repeat groups. This means you should show up ready to level as much as possible -- don't show up for a group and then start begging for gear, or without enough food and water to go for a long time, etc. If you're a lowbie shifter grouped with two especially tough warriors who are mowing stuff down non-stop for XP, don't demand to sleep up mana when you run out -- accept that you are 'the third' and go with the flow, being as useful as you can. This also can mean using the best / most efficient skills/spells for what you're doing at the moment rather than the skills/spells you really want to work on for the future.

- Keep in mind that the best XP isn't always the biggest XP per kill. Stuff you can kill for 100 xp/kill without stopping or resting is often better than 500 xp kills you struggle with.

- Factor PK into your thinking. Along the lines of the last point, if you're going to get constantly PK'd or have to fight off PK attempts, you probably aren't going to get much leveling done. If your range is full of hostile rangers, don't level in the wilds if you can help it, etc.

- Play with the mindset that a getting a crappy group and getting going is mostly better than not going at all. If that means you're a level 30 character grouped with two level 22s killing stuff you get 20 XP for, so be it -- you're working on your skills and making allies for the future. If in a few days those guys are level 35 and you're still 30, maybe they'll ask you to join them and you'll be on the other side of that balance.

- Ask for advice. If you're newly level 40 and have no idea where level 40 (whatever you are) goes to get XP, ask the allies you've made along the way for ideas. If you don't know where to get a better weapon, ask for ideas (just don't demand that the group drop what they're doing to actually go get it.) A lot of players that wouldn't be caught dead fetching stuff for you or showing you around an area will at least give you some advice to get you started.

- Don't give up. It's hard to actually run out of con. Your XP hole from a death can only get so big now, unlike back in the day when I was hiking to hero through snow and razor blades. If you don't give up, you'll get there eventually.

>>>First question: how close have you come so far, and with what kinds of characters? That'll give us a better sense of what kind of advice you need.


Ok, well the highest characters that I have had were actually on opposite ends of the spectrum. First was a Paladin by the name of Dennek who I ended up getting to...I think it was 36-37, or so before deleting. And then a drow shapeshifter by the name of Nazdreth that I got all the way up to 37, without using preps and all that since I dont know where to find or get them. That's probably the highest characters I have ever had, aside from one warrior that I think I got to lvl 41, but that was waaaaay back in the day when I first started up, so I am not really sure about that number.

I have had a smattering of assassins and warriors all across that time, and know for a fact that I have attempted each class and race at least one time.


>>>Some general advice... and keeping in mind, this is my advice on optimizing leveling, which is not how I generally recommend playing the game and is not how I play the game myself: ETC....

I think all of that which follows is great. And I will def keep that in mind for future use in levling. But, another question, how do you get past the 'down' times. I mean, yes I know you can go out there and try to RP, but it just seems to me (at least in my recent experiences) that if you are not high up in the ranks, you hardly get the rp sessions that might just pop up between characters. Which is another reason why I am asking for advice in this thread; this is supposed to be an RP mud, but more often than not I am finding myself in death matches or merely lvl grinding, than anything else. Any thoughts?

Before I begin, a side advice is don't pick up my terrible habit of quitting after you've been pk'd. I think its one of my worst habits, and try not to do that. Onward, though.

Downtime is fairly common these days. What I do:

1) Practice

If you're a melee class, you can work on your skills on easier mobs. This is much easier if you're not a rager, as you can use healers. Even if you are, its still doable. I don't go out and kill stuff solo for the purpose of solo ranking (though if that works out, great), but rather to prepare myself for the peekays.

If you're a mage, you can spam spells, though this is boooring, and probably won't get you far.

2) Explore

Explore exp helps for edges. Find areas around your level and look around them. Look at mobs, roomdecs, items. If you don't have identify or reliable lore, bring the item to the inn if you think it might be promising. I love that new mob, btw.

This will also help you if you take the time to learn directions. Eventually, and this is a pretty scary thought about myself, you can run places blind. Yay.

3) Arr Pee

If no one's at the inn, or thats not your bag, find people who might have the same, or exact opposite ideals from your role. These folks are the easiest to rp with, since you have something in common.

I like non-hero ranks. Its easier to be surprised in pk, people are still unknown, etc.

Hope this helps.

Helps alot, thanks very much! :)

Come up with a character concept that you really really like. Play it and do not stop. You will hero. Play it out for at least 400 hours. You will learn a lot.

For some reason, I generally take what most people consider forever to hero a character. Somewhere in the 200 hour mark. I had one take almost 400 hours to hero. Just stick with ONE character. Do not make any side projects. Just play one. Play one until either 400+ hours or age/con death. After you do that first one, they just get easier.

See, my problem seems to be though, that I get hit so hard even before the 100 hour mark that I start to loose interest. I don't know what it is, but it always seems like someone either has the more bad ass sword than I do, the more bad ass armor, the more bad ass everything, and I can't compete with that no matter how much skill grinding I do. So what do you reccomend in that regard? Playing a more utility based class? IE something that can hide/invis/duo/teleport..etc?

>See, my problem seems to be though, that I get hit so hard
>even before the 100 hour mark that I start to loose interest.
>I don't know what it is, but it always seems like someone
>either has the more bad ass sword than I do, the more bad ass
>armor, the more bad ass everything, and I can't compete with
>that no matter how much skill grinding I do. So what do you
>reccomend in that regard?

Honestly? Set your sights lower, for now.

There have been a small handful of people over the history of CF who were mostly beating ass by their second or third character. They're very much in the minority. If you're writing a post like this, you're not in that group.

But most people aren't. Make peace with that, and move on.

You're not going to make a hero who also beats ass in PK in one go. One of the things I really like about PK in CF is that it plays out really differently for different classes at different level ranges. This is one of the things that makes the trek towards hero with a new character fun for me. This also means that even if you whip ass at PK at level 15, your first hero will probably be slapped around silly.

Therefore, I suggest either:

A) Focus on heroing first. You're going to get beat in PK. That's okay.

B) Focus on PK first. Level a character up to 11 with a role that will draw a lot of conflict, and start killing as appropriate. Once you feel unbeatable, level up a little more and repeat.

Probably, (A) is a better bet for you.

Once you're hero, you won't have that hero virginity boogeyman haunting you anymore. What next? If your exploration skills aren't super hot, this is a great chance to get a better handle on some of the low-midlevel areas and even some of the high level areas. You'll die doing this. That's okay, too. You'll keep the knowledge for your next character.

There's a big advantage in ten different ways to knowing areas really well, and that never comes from looking at someone else's map or following someone else around it. Those things can be training wheels, but they're not helpful or practical when your next level 12 guy is blinded in Forest of Nowhere and needs to run to the nearest healer blind with someone occasionally catching up to him and bashing him. There's no substitute for personal hands-on experience here.

I could write a whole post on newbie PK mistakes that it sounds like you're making. Maybe a little later. :)

LOL, no doubt you probably could, and any info you are willing to share would be appreciated. But you are def right, it seems as if 'A' would work a bit better for me at the moment.

Another question then. I have noticed that, with most of the chracters I have played, I eventaully get to a point where the only things I can train are HP, MANA, and MOVE. Usually, at this point, I use up the next trains I get in buffing up my HP. IS there really any point to this? I seem to recall reading that you only get like 10 hp for each train, but even if you dont and you get more, does the extra (however many) hp really make a difference in combat enough to warrant using up the train? Should I be saving them for the eventaul CON that I will lose?

Remember, as a human for example, you can die 51 times before permanent death. This is a lot of explore. If you save a couple of trains, it will be 60. That's a lot of death. And do not worry if your con drops low, a lot of the regear eq you might be going for has +con, such as the silvery rose rings, pitch-black rings, and linen bandages. It's also possible to just gather unlimited con gear into a sack, for when you need to rest while solo exploring.

The things you want to learn is to both kill mobs, and kill players. Try to learn to do both, in a non-suicidal fashion. Try to learn how to gear, for this you need to learn what kind of a group should you try to bring, and which class can even do it solo. Much like in pk, learn to assess the skillset a mob uses. This is much easier against mobs, because their tactics never change.

When fighting pks, try to assess your own fights, why did you lose. Usually when you win, you did something wrong and a change of tactics is in order, but this is not the case always. Sometimes, even when the odds are on your side, the rng may screw you. This is a random element of risk, it's not gay, weak or lame, it's how things are simulated in all rpgs. It would be boring if every fight with equal tactics always resulted in the same outcome. So try to think, should another fight with equal tactics usually result in my win? If it was an arial suddenly popping 8 hit flurry on you, yeah mayby it was just bad luck and you can carry on. If it was deathblow, yeah it's random, but was it also expected? If you fight a rager for 15 or rounds or more, perhaps it's only inevitable that a deathblow will hit at some point.

Consider things like these, don't be afraid of making mistakes, but try not to make the same ones over and over.

If you are desperate to Hero play a human goodie healer or just about any human healer and just keep ranking away. You'll always find a group as a healer.

Though, with some experience under my belt having played empowerment classes, wont playing a healer actually be harder than say playing a warrior or something? I know that healers will always get a group, but I thought they were put on the 'harder to play' list because of the difficulty in getting empowered, the fact they are a purely defensive based class, etc.

Eh. I don't think empowerment should be that hard for you as long as you pick a sphere with an active imm, particularly since you expressed a desire for RP in another part of this thread. And...I guess it depends on what you mean by hard to play. Defensive, yes, but you'll be able to survive just about (Worldbind is killer, though) anything so long as you keep your defenses up--if you don't need to stay to heal allies or some such, you should be able to escape pretty much any hostile encounter. You'll probably have trouble killing things/people on your own, so its hard in that sense, but there have been a few that have played offensive healers (take a look at the battlefield).

Also,
I think all of that which follows is great. And I will def keep that in mind for future use in levling. But, another question, how do you get past the 'down' times. I mean, yes I know you can go out there and try to RP, but it just seems to me (at least in my recent experiences) that if you are not high up in the ranks, you hardly get the rp sessions that might just pop up between characters. Which is another reason why I am asking for advice in this thread; this is supposed to be an RP mud, but more often than not I am finding myself in death matches or merely lvl grinding, than anything else. Any thoughts?

Ask people why they're attacking you. Seriously. Sometimes they'll just tell you to bugger off, but sometimes you get an interesting story. If you cross paths with someone, greet them. Poke new players and see how they're doing. Buuut...Yeah, there's a definite emphasis on PK. Also, caballing may or may not help.

It depends on what you want out of it. From your post it sounds like you just want to hit Hero. Empowerment with the right Imm isn't bad, it can just be time consuming. However once you get empowered Heroing is a joke. Now if you want to Hero and PK or don't feel like dealing with the crap shoot that is empowerment, then I would go with a Bard.

>>>However once you get empowered Heroing is a joke.

A joke? I def must be doing something wrong with my empowerment characters if lvling is that easy once you get the IMM thumbs up.

With competent groupmates, leveling is pretty easy. If you stick with your character and don't give up, then you shouldn't have problems getting to hero.

>>>>However once you get empowered Heroing is a joke.
>
>A joke? I def must be doing something wrong with my
>empowerment characters if lvling is that easy once you get the
>IMM thumbs up.

Well, this really only applies to Healers and Paladins. Those classes are extra-easy to level. Shamans and Druids are still probably above-average levelers, but I would put them a few spots down on the list. For what it's worth, here is how I would rank ease of getting to hero for a newbie. Other people will have vastly different opinions I'm sure. In a vet's hands, certain classes get much easier to hero (for example, druids and rangers and rangers are great levelers if you have good area knowledge). This is how I think it breaks down if you're new.

Healer
Bard, Paladin
Transmuter
Assassin, defensive warrior/shapeshifter (with the right forms)
lawful good conjurer
druid, Shaman
offensive warrior
ranger
invoker, non-defense shapeshifter, non-LE conjurer, anti-paladin
thief
orc
necromancer

Do people consider orcs generally so untrustworthy or what? AP and orc are somewhat similar, but true, orc's bad charisma can make them hard to level up.

>Do people consider orcs generally so untrustworthy or what?
>AP and orc are somewhat similar, but true, orc's bad charisma
>can make them hard to level up.

They have similar offensive potential, but APs can do some of it with spells, whereas orcs have to do it all with gear, which newbies don't have as much of.

Orcs seem to be the most distrusted and unappreciated of all classes or races. You can make an AP role that gives you a smooth tongue and a likeable personality, but as an orc you are sort of pigeonholed into being unpleasant to hang around. My experience certainly has been that finding groups is easier as an AP, despite having the village against me. As an AP, you can overcome some of your ally-problems by joining empire, while an orc has no simple way to get allies. Overall it's slightly favorable to the AP, especially as a newbie.

The other difference is group utility. APs have blind and summon. As with damage spells, utility spells make up for poor gearing. Even detect invis has some value.

Orcs and APs are similar, but I think it's a bit easier as an AP.