I tried ranking up a lowbie, and I #### you not I felt like just deleting and quitting mudding for good because of how tedious the whole thing is.

1-30 is like going through the motions of some out-dated system. It sucks! I mean, what the hell good does it do besides make me hate the game?!

Solutions? Sure. Cut out xp penalties until level 25 or 30. Boost all improvement rates dramatically. Boost all XP gains dramatically. Freeking anything to make the "suck" go away.


AAAAHRHRRHRHRHGHGGHGHGHGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

~

I don't really sleep for move as a lowbie. Probably less than half a dozen times between let's say 1-25.

There's lots of little ways to take the edge off of running out of move, and they add up. For example, making strategic use of your free restore at level up, bartering/paying for heals, gear that helps with movement regen, etc.

I don't really sleep for move as a lowbie. Probably less than half a dozen times between let's say 1-25.

If I stay on roads I don't have to sleep either. As soon as I leave civilization, it starts to become tedious. One can rank to 25 damn quick if they choose, and the move situation is a motivating factor.

There's lots of little ways to take the edge off of running out of move, and they add up. For example, making strategic use of your free restore at level up, bartering/paying for heals, gear that helps with movement regen, etc.

Making use of level up..heheh. One usually isn't running around a lot and ranking, and ranks don't occur too often. A bit of a stretch, but you're right, it should be used. I need to start traveling with 5 tnl. Paying and bartering is smart and refreshes are cheap. Gear is tough because the +regen stat is hidden from lowbies so you will need to research with another char to know this.

The move system sucks. That's my opinion. I've posted on this topic before and I am still completely certain that what I'm saying is right.

I've played enough RPGs(non-MUD) and CF is the only one that makes you wait for moves. Waiting for moves is a buzz-killer. It adds nothing to the game.

Dunno if you've ever had the grand suckitude that I do, but I generally have fine leathers until ~45 ;P If you identify them you'll realize almost all of them, if not all of them, are + mv regen.

>Waiting for moves is a buzz-killer.
>It adds nothing to the game.

Sure it does. To pick the most obvious example, a ton of character builds can use movement drain/denial as a PK tactic.

How about making mv usage a non-issue at the low ranks, and gradually introduce the "strain" of walking as level increases. The goal is to make it so that by the time mv-drain techniques are actually usable by you or your enemies, mv's are working for you just as they are now.

Of course, I'd suggest raising the levels of all mv-drain abilities to match this change.

I'd consider movement denial to be a viable tactic at all levels of PK. If anything, it's most viable at the lowest levels of PK when word/teleport/etc. haven't come out yet for most classes and most people aren't packing a pile of potions.

I'd consider movement denial to be a viable tactic at all levels of PK. If anything, it's most viable at the lowest levels of PK when word/teleport/etc. haven't come out yet for most classes and most people aren't packing a pile of potions.


I completely understand what you are saying.

But, that does not make it good for the game (especially at low levels). I can't walk from Galadon to Ysigrath without sleeping for a few minutes at the low ranks. I have to sleep to get through the pass of Gol Galath (yes, I know it was worse at one point). ####, getting to Shokai's shrine was a real treat when I used to bother with that. Or Uller's.

How about this: Levels 1-10 = no mv drain, period. After that, pick right back up with it.

My issues with 1-10 are these:

1) You can't get PK'd, so mv-suckage has nothing to do with being anyone's tactic (unless it's Tarus running your ass down in the lumberyard).
2) People just recall and sleep at the pit hoping for a refresh. Honestly? What the hell is the point other than to waste my time there?
3) MV drain from terrain is as harsh on you at level 1 as it is at level 51, but you have waaaaay less MV to work with, so it is that much worse.

Just put a reminder in at the same time that the "You can now be pwned by other characters" one shows up, saying "Take care to keep track of your stamina now."

I can't say I love it either. You, Mek, have a good perspective and bring up good points on a lot of topics. But often your perspectives are from that of a veteran player (which makes sense, of course).

One "nice" thing about mv loss pre-PK is you can get a feel for just how far you're going to be able to run before it isn't an option anymore. You (and me), having played a bajillion chars, know damn well that once we're in PK, running away from an attacker all the way from FoN in the past back to Galadon and (relative) safety isn't going to happen. And a warning saying "make sure to watch your stamina" isn't going to help.

However we have talked about ways to make low-level-mv-suckitude better. I don't remember specifics (and I make NO GUARANTEES about if/when anything will be implemented) but one idea I, personally, liked was something like giving out more movement at level 1 (like starting with 500 mvs instead of 100 or something and then have lower mv increases later on. The problem with that idea is how do you make it balance out? Maybe we just make level 1 chars have about the same amount of mvs as they will at level 10, and then from 1-10 we don't give them mv increases? I dunno.

I'm not as 3133+ as Daev when it comes to that sort of thing, but I am enterprising...who wants to take time to write a role/desc? There's eq laying around to be picked up! Quests to do! Easy mobs to level up on! But if I'm sleeping for 3-4 ticks to get moves up, I can throw my role out there pretty quick. Next time I need to sleep, I can do my desc, or part of it. You get the idea.

Oblivion did it with a 'fatigue' bar, pretty much the same thing as move. However, when the bar wen't down all the way it didn't stop you from moving, it just slowed down your movement. This stat had all kind of affects because it represented you being tired. It was more than an on/off movement kill switch, it represented the quality of your moves and your actions in general. That's way more complicated than CF's, but it is far more realistic.

In CF this would be something like:
100%-40% - all movement is normal
40%-10% - a varying degree of lag to walking
10% - impossible to go below 10% without some kind of malediction

This would give you a serious strategic advantage to staying refreshed as it is now. But, you would never need to sleep for moves, you just won't be able to run away when fatigued.

I'm done trying to add doses of realism to the game. Now I just want it to be fun. To elaborate on why, take this example:

At 0mv's you are so friggin tired you cannot take a single step.

At 0mv's you can fight at full capacity (barring mv-usage in a few abilities). You can dodge and parry just as you would at 100%. This makes no sense whatsoever.

At 0mv's word of recall has no penalty save for mana cost, even though it's supposed to tax stamina greatly.

One entangle on a character that's much below max moves, and he'll never escape a druid or ranger through fleeing.

That will depend on where you put the fatigue bar. I chose that fatigue point pretty randomly.

But, is someone going to be able to run away from a ranger or a druid after a few entagles in the current system? Doesn't the ranger already move faster than most players in the wilds?

It would also be possible to keep moving in this system instead of being dead in the water like the current.

I am a little skeptical that the power of entangle would be changed drastically. It could be better or worse. This aspect is something that could be tweaked.

I can't say I love it either. You, Mek, have a good perspective and bring up good points on a lot of topics. But often your perspectives are from that of a veteran player (which makes sense, of course).

This is completely fair to say. But, I can also say that in this case I have always vehemently despised the movement system at low ranks. And that has nothing to do with it being a factor in getting PK'd at those levels. It's purely to do with the annoyance of sleeping all the time.

The idea about starting with 500mv's instead of 100 is brilliant, honestly. But I'd further add that MV regen be based on a character's max MV (if it does not already) rather than a fixed scale like HP or MANA, but with a cut-off at the low end so that people who are for some reason MV-nuked don't have to sleep for an hour to recover (woe is the Rager). Why? Well, here is an example:

Player A has 1200 max MV.

Player B has 600 max MV.

I'd want their regen rate to be based on a percentile rather than an actual fixed number because it should reflect the fact that Player A is seasoned by travel and is twice as comfortable with the rigors of travel and subsequent recovery. The result would be that Player A would gain, what, 200 mv's a tick while sleeping, and Player B would gain 100mv's. Both are proportionally the same, but the obvious advantage goes to the seasoned vet.

And also, I wouldn't fret too much over mv-drain tactics becoming impotent because THOSE abilities almost all cut MV in half each time they land (with one exception that comes to mind). Since it isn't draining a fixed number amount, it's going to whittle Player A and Player B down about the same.

Example using energy drain in a fight:

Player A
1200
1> 600
2> 300
3> 150
4> 75
5> 37

Player B
600
1> 300
2> 150
3> 75
4> 37

The point there is that for all of Player A's MV advantage over Player B, it really only affords him one extra hit from a MV-halving ability in reality. Sure, if combat breaks after 2 hits, Player A is in better shape, but eh...doesn't seem too substantial. 300mv's in FoN might as well be 150mv's for all the distance you will get on it.


That was long, probably redundant, and a bit jumbled, but I hope you see what I am driving at.

If an experienced player does not pick the 'I am new to this mud option' then they can have the idea Mekantos suggests but newbies can still learn the costs of mvs around thera by picking the 'I am new to this mud' option.

-----Abernyte

How about you scale the amount of moves terrain takes from the character based on their level?

Level 51 moving through mountains takes 102 mv a step.

Level 5 moving through the same mountains takes 10 mv a step.

Scale it as needed based on expected mean of mv at 51, but it would have the same percentage affect to the character regardless of level. Instead of it taking 10% of a level 51's moves and 80% of a level 5's.

Just my two cents,
Gabe

.

The waiting part adds nothing, that's what I was refering to. The denying moves is a strong tactic. That one has a simple solution, you can't flee if you have no moves.

>Sure it does. To pick the most obvious example, a ton of
>character builds can use movement drain/denial as a PK
>tactic.

His comment was specific to low levels, afaik. At those levels, movement draining isn't nearly as common. What *is* common is getting a kill because the target doesn't have the means to magically transport himself and runs out of movement trying to run from you. That's something I think we should retain. To that end, I propose:

1. Leave the *number* of movement points as is.
2. Increase regen rates drastically, but on a sliding scale such that the increase ceases to be noticeable around the 20th rank.
3. Make the new lowbie-movement-regen-bonus contingent on calm adrenaline. If a character would be prevented from entering his guild, he gets no regen bonus.

This has the following effects:

1. A low-ranking character traveling from one side of Thera to the other still hits 0% movement around the same time he would under the current system. It just takes fewer hours of rest for him to get back to 100%.

2. "Chasing someone until they run out of movement" is still a valid PK tactic for lowbie PK fights.

3. Lowbies ranking in movement-costly areas (e.g. Ysigrath) still run out of moves as with the current system, since the constant mob killing keeps their adrenaline high. So areas that are unworkable (due to movement costs) are still largely unworkable.

Possible alternative to the above:

1. Alter the prog that controls how town healers dispense their free communes to sub-11 characters. Keep bless/cure at the same frequency, but jack up the rate of refresh communes.

>>> Gear is tough because the +regen stat
>is hidden from lowbies so you will need to research with
>another char to know this.

Perhaps an echo when you wear movement regenerating gear so lowbies will know what it does? Mages don't get identify until 15, earliest class that gets lore is bard at 10, and unless gnome/svirf/bard won't have it at 100% to know.

This is one of my biggest "hates". Accept that we normal folk don't have your movement skillz. ;-)

I take advantage of that stuff too, and I still end up with a fair amount of down time. Most notably when doing one of several quests that send you all over Thera. That and walking to out-of-the-way places to check for gear on the ground.

One thing that helps (a lot) is locating items that are 1) likely to be on the ground in large quantities, 2) light and 3) can be bartered for a refresh. Load up and use as needed.

That said, I still end up sleeping a lot.

####, I enjoy 1-30 a lot more than 31-51, typically.

There's no magic left in 1-30 for you. That's the problem. It's somewhat natural that killing the 74,071st metal soldier isn't exciting...at all. Personally, when I first cleared the Academy and was decked out in soft leather gear, I could say I felt somewhat accomplished. That was a long time ago for me too.

So, I don't think there's a solution for your problem with 1-30.

I think a big part of the problem is that there seems to be two separate playerbases. One is 30+, and one is 29-. Interacting with the 30+ playerbase is so much better, in my opinion. By that point a lot of the complete asswipe characters are out of reach (or will be soon), and you are dealing with people who actually give a crap about their characters, for the most part.

When you get bored, go to the Inn, wander around Galadon, something. Go find a newb and teach them how to roleplay. I know sometimes I log in, look at my rank and say....#### me this is going to be boring. So I fnd some people to roleplay with and do it. Isn't that part of the reason we love this game so much? The excellent melding of PK and RP. I know that's why I play this game, and get fed up with MMO's. Low level RP is the most underrated, most missed opportunity in the game. Look at it as an opportunity to improve Thera and CF instead of; holy #### I have to go through all this #### again? Just my 2, hope you find some way to mitigate the boredom.

One thing that tends to mitigate the tedium for me is that you're constantly learning new skills and/or improving at your existing skills. And at a pretty rapid rate.

One frustrating thing is that many classes are pk-neutered until they get certain skills, which is annoying. Thieves pre-25 for instance.

I don't think thats so bad. And like it has been said before, the lower ranks weed out the high level throwaway characters. I'm pretty okay with things as they are.

Well, perhaps it would be good with a few more hero throw away chars. Might improve the PKing fun for everyone at high rank a bit more. The number of heroes online varies ALOT. Sometimes I had 20 in PK range (mostly at very odd times for me) and at my regular times I was alone or had 2-3...

But I do agree that it breeds better 51s.

You must give me you hints! I want my necro/conjie/thief/shaman/hell... anything I've EVER played in the last 10 years to get to level 30 in two hours!!!

Lowbie quests. There are a couple of lowie quests that can be done along the same general route and can easily get you close to 10 in under 20 minutes if you know the way. Gearing for move regen makes this considerably easier. Lowbies these days have it SO MUCH easier than when I started.

Lowbie areas. Depending on align/ability, certain lowbie areas can speed you along so fast in your levels it's absurd. Examples? The Vale as an orc with any old iron weapon and a very basic set able to be gotten by anyone level 3 or so and up. It's even easier in somewhere like FON in the past as a goodie of almost any type.

Ranking quickly is very easy, if you aren't trying to work skills or gather gold along the way. Likewise, working skills or gathering gold can slow down your ranking. Concentrating on just one thing will make it go faster, but will slow down everything else. You just have to decide which is most important to you. I prefere to level up a little slower, and work skills as I go. But if I just want to get in there and start swinging, I can easily do 15 or more in an hour.

Speaking as a vet of over 10 years, there is no way that you can get to level 10 in twenty minutes. The amount of time you need to rest while walking between quests completely foils your 20 minute idea.
Every tick you rest is a minute of waiting, and now that you can't time "convenient" rests by including time in your prompt, it takes even longer than it did a couple of years back.

There is also no way that you can get to level 30 in 2 hours with any class, barring help from higher level players.

I'd also like to point out that while a good-aligned transmuter can make it to level 30 in under 10 hours, it's a completely different story for other classes. If you can rank a necro to level 30 in 10 hours without arranging an OOC group, I would be shocked.

Based on how easy you think it is to rank, my guess is that you mainly play good-aligned characters. Good aligneds have a MUCH easier time ranking than evils for a multitude of reasons.

I challenge you to roll a character, announce the name of it here and when you'll be starting it, then get it to level 10 in 20 minutes. I'll log in and time you. Feel free to delete after level 10; If you're right, this'll only take you 20 minutes, so it's not a big deal.

You do realize there are items that add to regen now, yes? Healers along eastern road, etc. Movement is no problem, especially thanks to barter and things you can find just laying on the ground, and many of the lowbie quests involve you recieving coins as well as xp. 10 in 20 minutes is perfectly doable. Just because you can't doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means you can't. Hell, you can get to 5 in under 5 minutes without leaving the academy/galadon area. Another 5 levels in 15 minutes as a lowbie? Not difficult at all, especially if you land a group. Sure it won't be as easy with every character build, but the time differential isn't enough to really be considerable.

I've done the power ranking, I'm aware of mv regen gear and ####, you'll be lucky as god knows what to hit 20 in 3 hours. Hitting 10 in 45 minutes to an hour is pretty doable, but hitting ten sub-30 minutes is a BIG stretch. And hitting 30 in 2 hours? You're on rocks if you say that.

For what it's worth, I've done 20 in 3 hours a bunch of times, including with characters that aren't in any way optimal for any part of powerlevelling 1-20. E.g., air major shifter.

I don't usually want to level that fast. The game doesn't start at hero for me and I'd rather take longer, get to roleplay more, get into twenty PK fights by twenty or whatever, etc... but if all you want to do is speed through those levels for whatever reason, it's not that hard.

I can't honestly see hitting level 30 in 2 hours, but level 30 in 10 hours if all you wanted to do was level, is not hard.

nt

>Speaking as a vet of over 10 years, there is no way that you
>can get to level 10 in twenty minutes.

If all the stars aligned and you managed to assemble the perfect ranking group and managed to find the right (common) gear on the ground, I think it's very possible.

For reference, when my lowbie characters are "doing well" they typically amass about 20k xp per hour. That includes some solo ranking from 1-5, time spent fetching simple gear, finding groups, etc. That still doesn't translate to "level 10 in 20 minutes", but then again my groups aren't always ideal.

>I challenge you to roll a character, announce the name of it
>here and when you'll be starting it, then get it to level 10
>in 20 minutes. I'll log in and time you. Feel free to delete
>after level 10; If you're right, this'll only take you 20
>minutes, so it's not a big deal.

W/ cherry-picked groupmates (rolled at the same time as my character, so we're all level one) I think I could do this. Obviously that's cheating, though.

Boosting experience gains for those levels would be absolutely awesome. I'm for it. :)