With the discussion on the Orderly ethos, I've come to think once again on what Chaotic means in cf.

I personally think Valkenar said how I have looked at it in the past very well and concisely in the thread about order'

*********
Generally orderly vs chaotic is more about the overall personality of the character than the character's views with regards any particular ruleset. Does the character behave methodically, calculatingly? Orderly? Does the character go about helter-skelter without a lot of forethought and planning? Chaotic.
*************


And, I think if it were like that in cf-reality, it would be awesome.

however, I have met VERY few characters in the last 10 years that have picked chaotic ethos that fit this definition of chaotic. and by very few, I mean less than 10.

the vast majority of the chaotic characters I have run into (both against as arby/tribby/empire and for as sylvan/baron/outlander) are what I would call "orderly chaotics".

meaning, the character behaves in a methodical, calculating, utterly predictable manner, but because of the inner philosophy of the role, the player picks the chaotic alignment at role-up.

(I have seen more and more of this since outlander went in and characters get more cabal powers being chaotic than if they were neutral)


The majority of outlanders that I have met could be always counted on to do certain things. always. Without fail. And I believe it would have been more accurate for those characters to have been made Orderly, either at role-up or after 200 hours of predictable behavior.


rain falls down.

outlanders who get wanted and pop in and out out galadon's west gate are trying to lure you into a gang one step north of the first room of the road in feanwyyn.

water is wet.



OF course, outlanders don't take Orderly ethos (I think this is a holdover from when orderly was called lawful, myself) so those who want to play the concerted, dedicated anti-establismentarian or anarchist who wants to take civilization down...but goes about it in an orderly way (most outlanders I have met) *CAN'T* choose orderly ethos.

My opinion, and I would be open to explanations of why I am wrong, is that the fact that Outlanders don't accept Orderly flagged characters is one of the main reasons that most chaotic flagged characters are mis-flagged.


personally, REALLY playing a character that is chaotic in the definition outlined above is hard. VERY VERY hard. And is for any human being in the real world.

Cause and effect is ingrained in us biologically, or we wouldn't survive as a species. Those people in real life who would fit into the "chaotic" mold would most likely be institutionalized, homeless, or otherwise not pass on their genes.

because Cf is a world based on rules, programming wise it can't be any other way, I think it would be impossible for any character to even reach hero in cf if they REALLY fit the above definition of Chaotic.



So we have a problem. IF staying completely true to the above definition of chaos makes it nearly 99.99999999999% impossible to accomplish anything long-term in cf, including reaching hero, as I believe, then the definition must be wrong, or...there must be another definition that people use to explain why their characters are flagged chaotic when in reality they should be "orderly-chaotic" in ethos.


I've played one character that made a concerted effort to be chaotic by the above definition. Sure, I got into barons, but never got past the twenties, I don't think, and it was hard to get that far and still be "chaotic".

I've had a few outlanders, but I really have to grit my teeth and close my eyes to not pick at least neutral instead of chaotic, because I know a SUCCESSFUL true chaotic character is just beyond me, and I believe beyond most non-insane human beings.........if you use the above definition.


So, I'd like to ask some of you players who play outlander after outlander, chaotic-flagged character after chaotic-flagged character.

How do *YOU* define chaotic ethos? How do *YOU* justify being 95% predictable and still choosing chaotic ethos?

I'm not trying to go after you here, I'm seriously intrigued and want to know. Maybe my definition of "chaotic" needs to change.

And, as it is, if the definition of chaotic at the beginning of the post is in line with the official definition, I think the official line of what chaotic is needs to change. because to be honest, I don't think there have been more than a dozen characters in cf since I have been playing who have fit the official line and got past lvl 35.

Chaotic from the past meant:
dopple
walk to enemy
fiend
loot
laugh


Chaotic now means, normally, an organised fight against lawful, NOT chaotic at all.

Personally, I would like to see imms slam down on chaotic behavior that is in fact, predictable. e.g. the outlander who is "chaotic" but always attacks the same targets, or uses the same tactics. Competely viable, but NOT CHAOTIC!

Too much of what is supposedly anti-lawful is, in fact, orderly, and should be recognised as such.

>Chaotic from the past meant:
>Personally, I would like to see imms slam down on chaotic
>behavior that is in fact, predictable. e.g. the outlander who
>is "chaotic" but always attacks the same targets, or uses the
>same tactics. Competely viable, but NOT CHAOTIC!

Well, if you're using the same tactics and failing, sure. But if you find a tactic that works, do you have to stop using it just because you're chaotic-aligned? I don't think Chaotic should be any more of a kick-me sign than Good is. You definitely should change up your tactics as much as possible as a chaotic, but I think there's a large difference between being a sphere chaos, ethos chaos shaman who really is intentionally chaotic and someone who is chaotic in so far as they hate being bound by rules, can't tolerate authority, and wants to see civilization crumble.

Both are valid, but the second guy really has no have to go out of his way to have chaotic-seeming tactics.

what you are describing isn't "chaotic". It's reculent, at least. or Anti-establishmentarian. or anarchic.


the fact that you have to choose an ethos named "chaotic" because you don't fit chaotic less than you don't fit orderly or neutral, is a shame, in my book.

because it's not chaotic. by the definition of chaotic.

Is it a valid role for the ethos that is opposite Orderly? Yes.

should it be called "chaotic"?

no. Not in my opinion.

Well, an evil chaotic, but still...I should write a book!

I miss enemies like Gistle.

Virtually every character I have ever played has chosen the chaotic ethos. Order just feels... binding, I guess. Even if I'm going to play Fortress or try my hand at battle, I'll pick the chaos ethos.

To me, to play a completely chaotic person, in life or on CF would be impossible, just like it would be impossible for anything in nature to be chaotic. Every living thing has a routine. Because of this, we develop a sense of security, safety, etc. A deer uses some of the same paths to get to and from a drinking hole (i.e. a game trail) because the paths become familiar (from scents, sounds, etc). That might be considered an orderly nature. But, to me, that's where it stops. A deer doesn't care about "rules" or "laws" and doesn't follow a specific pattern to survive, per se. Survival in itself is chaotic, since the creature never knows when a predator is going to stalk it.

I view that as a base analogy for the chaotic ethos. My characters don't really ever respect the law when the basic ideology and morality of the character comes into question. Therefore, the need to "smite evil" trumps the concern of whether or not laws will be broken, because evil feels like a more tangible threat.

This could also be due to the fact that I took one of those personality tests that labeled me an INFP (Introvertive, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving). The last three parts would comprise a chaotic soul, in my opinion, as the opposite, ESTJ (Extraverted, Sensing, Thinking, Judging), would seem more likely to be an orderly soul with the last three.

Not sure how much sense this all makes and not sure if it defines anything really. But I think it sums up my opinion on the chaos ethos.

That's funny. I'm the exact opposite. My "default" is orderly. Occasionally I'll do neutral if I forsee breaking the law on a regular basis, or if the cabal I want to join requires it.

So. I've pointed out what I believe is a bit problematic with the alignment system, it's helpfiles, and it's terminology. So, being the good community member that I am, I'll go ahead and suggest a few fixes to the problems that I see.

Sure, I'm probably flying solo in my belief that the term "chaotic" as well as the helpfile is as outdated and just isn't representative of the ethos that is opposite of Orderly in Cf in practice. But the imms say often that they don't want people to just complain, but to offer solutions to the problems they are complaining about.

I love Isildur's summation of what the opposite of Orderly should be (and is already, in practice and implementation), so I'll re-post it here.

**********************
In CF, judging by how characters have been treated by the staff, it seems to mean:

1. Disdain or contempt for rules imposed by others.
2. Tendency toward recklessness and risk-taking (i.e. charging in without a plan).
3. Recognition of the significance of chance in determining the outcome of events.
***********************

Noone will ever convince me that either the term "chaotic" or the current chaotic helpfile is the best way to describe the above. Mainly because I can read a dictionary, and have a significant scientifically based understanding of exactly what "chaos" means in the real world, I just can never agree that "chaotic" is the best choice of terms.

So, what would be a better term, in my opinion?

What about Recusant?
Aside from it's specific historical application to particular groups, it also means "A dissenter; a nonconformist." to be Recusant is to "refuse to submit to authority" or "refusing to submit,comply, etc."

The good thing about the term "Recusant" is that it also implies "obstinate in refusal."

That one there is the crux. In cf terms. Being Obstinate in your refusal to obey the laws, means refusing to change your mind and bow down to the law.

This is why I think "Recusant" as a term vastly fits the kinds of roles in cf that people think of when they think of "chaotic" roles much better than the term "chaotic".

Because the term "chaotic" implies an inability to be "obstinate" about anything.


Other terms I think would better be descriptive of the ethos opposite of "orderly" would be "Unrestrained" "anarchic", although I don't think those fit as well as "Recusant".

Actually, another term that I think would fit better than "chaotic" is "Antiestablishmentarian", as that means "Marked by opposition or hostility to conventional social, political, or economic values or principles."

Although, that's a bit clunky. Heh. Be funny to see that when you type "score"

You are Antiestablismentarian Good.

No, that probably doesn't work.


But I think
Orderly Good. Neutral Good. Recusant Good.
Orderly Neutral. True Neutral. Recusant Neutral.
Orderly Evil. Neutral Evil. Recusant Evil.

yeah. I think that fits better.

Heh, thinkign about it.

From now on, I'm just going to ignore the whole "chaotic" helpfile, and the term "chaotic" in cf. In my mind, Recusant, or any number of other terms better fits the roles that fill that niche in cf. so that's how I'll look at it.

Those outlanders really are playing Recusant roles. I'll just ignore the fact that those roles are called (incorrectly in my opinion) chaotic.

Disorderly? heh

I essentially feel, reading this, like you want chaotic to mean "stupid" (or, maybe think it does mean and there's no wanting involved), much as (no offense intended) a lot of the serial evil players want the good-align characters to live up to a standard of good that they themselves would never, ever play, and one that utterly binds their hands to PK uselessness.

That being said, probably some of the chaotic Outlanders really should be neutral in ethos.

I was unable to put my point clearly enough. you missed it.


My point is not that I want the opposite of orderly alignment to be only "stupid"

My point was that in my opinion according to the helpfiles, that is what chaotic means in cf, and that nearly noone who is chaotic fits what the helpfile says.

My point is that I think the opposite of Orderly should *NOT* be chaotic stupid, but according to the helpfile it is.

My whole point was to convey that I think the helpfiles for Chaotic needed an update to actually encompass what most people who choose "chaotic" ethos actually play.

please read isildur's post and my reply below.

I remember back when I was pre-teen, and I got my first "Dungeons and Dragons" book. Not "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" but the scaled down version.

In that, they had Lawful alignment, and Chaotic Alignment. That's it.

If you were chaotic, you were basically evil. If you were lawful, you were basically good. That's it.


Then came along Ad&d (which I got right after 2nd edition came out, about a million years ago)

they added evil and good into it...and neutrality.

And that system of ethos + alignment is what cf started with. G/n/e and l/n/c.

But, time went on, and the imms realized "Lawful" didn't really fit cf, as there were "orderly" roles that fit the LG alignment but didn't really follow cf's Laws.


My point, is that maybe it's time to find a new word and helpfile for "chaotic", just as "lawful" went by the wayside.

Sure, you could have just changed the Lawful helpfile to what it is now, and kept it named "lawful". But the term Lawful implied things that the new helpfile didn't mean to imply...namely a requirement that they follow cf's laws.....so the term "lawful" was scrapped in favor of "orderly".


I just wish you would do the same with "chaotic". Let's assume that you agree with me that the helpfile of chaotic could use an update (Although I'm probably flying solo in this)....

If you just change the helpfile, to more accurately reflect the things in Isildur's post...but still kept it named "Chaotic" ...you would have the same problem that you would have had if you had kept the word "lawful" instead of changing it to Orderly.

You say that I seem to want Chaotic people to be stupid (as a good word to sum up what I claim is real chaotic behavior).

*I* say that that is exactly what "Chaotic" people should be. The list of behaviors I listed is exactly what "chaos" means.

I'm not saying I want all chaotic characters to act like that, so that they fit in with the helpfile and what the term "chaotic" means. I'm saying that the helpfile, and even the term "chaotic" should be cahnged to better fit what it means in cf to be the opposite of Orderly.

Look at it this way: "chaotic" in Carrion Fields means "on the chaotic end of the spectrum that is typically displayed by sane people". Not "on the chaotic end of the absolute spectrum".

Absolute chaos can really only be exhibited by an insane person, and would totally preclude any sort of meaningful success in CF. Taken to absurd levels, the character would have to randomly eat or not eat on a given day. There could be no fixed meal times. He or she could not possess language, since that would involve an orderly arrangement of words and syllables into words.

However, if you look at the "range" of chaos & order people typically exhibit, clearly some folks are more "chaotic" than others. These are the guys whose desk is always messy. They're always late for meetings and appointments. They don't plan ahead. Etc. But they still typically eat three meals a day, sleep when it's dark, speak a language, etc. All you need to do is shift your understanding of "chaotic" into the range of behavior people actually exhibit.

Easy to say, but doesn't make it true.

I play evils and criticise goods.

Why?

Because I believe goods have a standard to adhere to.

That's why, when I play goods (which I do) I don't criticise evils. Because evils are entitled are play like twats to a much greater extent.

I have played a few Outlanders, and I go by what's in the helpfile:

A chaotic ethos does not bind a person to anything other than behaving chaotically. A chaotic person desires random chance, confusion, and the unexpected in their own life and the world around them to accomplish their goals. A chaotic person is free to act in whatever manner they so choose. The lack of methodologies, plans, and habits allows the chaotic person to gain what they desire. Their actions are done without thought to what the LAWS are or to deliberately oppose to them.


I personally do not have a problem following the above guidelines while playing an Outlander for several reasons, a couple of which I'll list. First, the above definition expressly says "Their actions are done without thought to what the LAWS are or to deliberately oppose to them." So basically a character that is "anti Law" fits right in with the Chaotic helpfile. Second, in order to be successful at PK in CF, you have to be unpredictable. If you use the same trick 10 times eventually it will stop working. If someone is expecting you to attack at a certain place and you do not attack 10 times, the 11th time they'll let down their guard. Etc. So it's no problem for me not to follow the routine you described (hiding outside the western gate of Galadon) because I can't imagine that working very often. Third, CF is a game to me, so I have no problem treating it like a game and messing around with every login - when it starts to feel routine, I get bored and log out. Generally I can't handle more than an hour straight of ranking, for example.

So basically I have no problem fitting into the helpfile's definition.

Your definition, however, I am not sure about. But looking at it, I'd guess your idea of chaotic is a subset of the helpfile's guidelines. It is one way to play a chaotic character, but not the only way, and probably not the way I'd personally like to play one.

Their actions are done without thought to what the LAWS are or to deliberately oppose to them.



What does that sentence, in the chaotic helpfile, mean to you? I can see right off that you have interpreted it differently than I. Let me try to explain.

Two ways you can read that sentence.

"Their actions are done without thought to what the laws are. Or their actions are done to deliberately oppose them."

Which is how it seems you have read that sentence. Which I can understand, but I don't really believe fits logically with what the rest of the helpfile just got finished saying about chaos.

or...

"Their actions are done without thought to what the laws are. Also their actions are done without thought to deliberately opposing the laws."

That is how I have always considered the helpfile to mean. And I will admit, I think this fits the rest of the helpfile better than your take on it.

Because to deliberately oppose something, is to be deliberate. the word is right there. Let's take the definition of the word "deliberate"

de·lib·er·ate /adj. dɪˈlɪbərɪt; v. dɪˈlɪbəˌreɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, verb, -at·ed, -at·ing.
–adjective
1. carefully weighed or considered; studied; intentional: a deliberate lie.
2. characterized by deliberation; careful or slow in deciding: a deliberate decision.
3. leisurely and steady in movement or action; slow and even; unhurried: a deliberate step.
–verb (used with object)
4. to weigh in the mind; consider: to deliberate a question.
–verb (used without object)
5. to think carefully or attentively; reflect: She deliberated for a long time before giving her decision.
6. to consult or confer formally: The jury deliberated for three hours.



I just can't see anyone who fits the rest of the cf's helpfile on chaos being Deliberate, by any of these six definitions.

But, your interpretation of the sentence

**Their actions are done without thought to what the LAWS are or to deliberately oppose to them. ***

implies that a chaotic person can carefully weigh or consider, and take studied action againt the law. And I just don't see that as fitting ANYTHING else in that entire "chaotic" cf helpfile.



Can you say that if someone truly fits this sentence in the chaotic helpfile

*desires random chance, confusion, and the unexpected in their own life and the world around them to accomplish their goals.*

that they can "deliberately oppose the law", given the definition of the word "deliberate"?




Now, I agree. There should be an alignment opposed to Orderly. And I agree, it should encompass most of the roles and personalities that most people who choose chaotic actually roleplay.

But, I do not think that the old chaotic helpfile encompasses the roles of 99% of the people who are chaotic that I have met in the time I have played cf.


This, to me, means either those people shouldn't be chaotic....OR....the helpfile/name of chaotic should be changed to include what the majority of cf's populace takes as chaotic.

Those definitions don't define everything the word deliberate can mean. It can also be used as a synonym for "intentional". That's how I think it's used in the helpfile, and that's much more plausible for a chaotic character.

I highly suspect that your parsing of that sentence does not match up with what the author intended.

The staff has demonstrated that it's okay with "deliberately anti-law" to be a valid chaotic role.

Chaotic in CF does not mean "totally unpredictable". Otherwise the chaotic character would perpetually move about in random directions, exhibiting random emotes and perhaps occasionally commiting suicide.

In CF, judging by how characters have been treated by the staff, it seems to mean:

1. Disdain or contempt for rules imposed by others.
2. Tendency toward recklessness and risk-taking (i.e. charging in without a plan).
3. Recognition of the significance of chance in determining the outcome of events.

In my opinion, if they took pretty much your post, and replaced the chaotic helpfile with it, I think it would fix any and all problems I have with the whole "chaotic" ethos.


*******
Chaotic in CF does not mean "totally unpredictable". Otherwise the chaotic character would perpetually move about in random directions, exhibiting random emotes and perhaps occasionally commiting suicide.
************

unfortunately, the old "chaotic" ethos helpfile, to me at least when I look at the definitions of words, implies exactly that. Which was my whole point. Lawful got an update by turning Orderly to more accurately describe the kinds of personalities fit into that ethos, whereas, it is my opinion, the chaotic helpfile is only about what you said above.

Which was exactly why I said almost no characters in the past were actually "chaotic".

I agree, the opposite of "orderly" *SHOULD* be as you put it...

1. Disdain or contempt for rules imposed by others.
2. Tendency toward recklessness and risk-taking (i.e. charging in without a plan).
3. Recognition of the significance of chance in determining the outcome of events.


And, it probably is, in implementation. Unfortunately, I say again, not what the helpfile sais (in my opinion).

thank you for putting it succinctly. I tend to ramble so much my points get lost to most readers.

"go about helter-skelter without a lot of forethought and planning? Chaotic." - How does this imply that there is an inability to succeed in your goals?

Someone who isn't thinking ten steps ahead, who is reactionary and impulsory fits this definition. I could see the problems you would have if that classic "chaotic stupid" were what you were talking about. But the definition used in that post is not chaotic stupid. Not to mention, you make your post as if you are omniscient of every char that has ever been played and knew them inside and out. I don't see how sanity really plays a role here. I'm more chaotic in real life than I am orderly. I'm always late, I never have a plan, and still I manage to not only get by but to succeed.

Do you consider serial killers sane? Because they are some of the most methodical people that are phsychologically profiled. Not only that but there is generally a routine that they like to follow over and over and over. How does that fit into your model of what you think it would take to play a "chaotic character" to your ideal specification?

>"go about helter-skelter without a lot of forethought and
>planning? Chaotic." - How does this imply that there is an
>inability to succeed in your goals?

For one, the very term "Goal" as you use it implicitly demands a certain level of forethought and planning.



>
>Someone who isn't thinking ten steps ahead, who is reactionary
>and impulsory fits this definition.


here again, we run into a problem. "reactionary" implies "reaction" which implies cause and effect. and a predictable cause and effect is called "orderly".

If I walk up to you and slap you, you get angry and or scared. this is cause and effect. this is Order.

A chaotic person, by the definition of chaotic that I've always had, If I slapped them in the face would have an equal chance to have a sudden desire to pick purple dandelions, or go to sleep, or eat, or sneeze, or jump up and down, or piss, or hug me, or frolick naked in a children's wading pool.


that is what it usually means to me to be "chaotic", and this also fits many definitions of "insane" in the real world. Doing something over and over and expecting a different result, I think is one way to define insane. That expectation of different results implies a direct mental disconnect and inability to see cause/effect relationships.



I could see the problems
>you would have if that classic "chaotic stupid" were what you
>were talking about. But the definition used in that post is
>not chaotic stupid. Not to mention, you make your post as if
>you are omniscient of every char that has ever been played and
>knew them inside and out. I don't see how sanity really plays
>a role here. I'm more chaotic in real life than I am orderly.
> I'm always late, I never have a plan, and still I manage to
>not only get by but to succeed.

I disagree with you there. No human being can be "more chaotic than orderly" in real life and function in any society. You might always be late. But I bet you almost always wake up after you go to sleep. I bet you almost always crap a while after you eat. I bet you almost always stop at red lights when driving (not saying you always do, but doing so more often than not, is more orderly than chaotic....being more chaotic than orderly in this fashion is a good way to get dead). I bet you almost always wipe after going poo. I bet you almost always say the same thing whenever you answer the phone. I bet you almost always sleep in the same room when you are at home. Why? why not sleep on the oven? or behind the refrigerator? because you probably have a bed and it's more comfortable...so you choose, more often than not, to sleep in said bed. This is called "Orderly" behavior.





>
>Do you consider serial killers sane?

I didn't mean to imply that all insane people would be considered truly chaotic. I meant to imply that all people who would be considered truly chaotic would also fit some sort of insanity definition as well. all bananas are fruits, this does not mean that all fruits are bananas.



I guess, I just believe that while the change from "lawful" to "orderly" in cf was wonderful as it nolonger meant "for the laws"

I do believe, however, that many chaotic characters I have met in cf still view "chaotic" as "against the laws" or "against civilization" or even "for nature".

having had some scientific training in real life, I can't help but see those who are "pro nature" in cf, and thus believe they have to choose "chaotic" as woefully ignorant of what "nature" is.


Carnivors eat meat, if they don't, they die. this is a cause and effect rule. or, you could even say it's a kind of "natural law"

Nature. Echo systems. The predator-prey dynamic. A person could go a LONG way in defining this things as far more "orderly" than any human society, as there are steadfast, scientific laws and theories that they follow that are knowable. However, in a human society, a human can choose not to follow the "rules". A wolf on the other hand doesn't decide on a whim to start a Vegan diet.

"For one, the very term "Goal" as you use it implicitly demands a certain level of forethought and planning."

A goal can be an immediate want, an impulsive desire. You are putting your own spin on my words to suit your argument. Stop it.

"here again, we run into a problem. "reactionary" implies "reaction" which implies cause and effect. and a predictable cause and effect is called "orderly"."

You again are making assumptions. Reaction is not the same thing as predictable reaction. Just that there *could* be one. I didn't imply that there *had* to be one. You did. Stop it.

"If I walk up to you and slap you, you get angry and or scared. this is cause and effect. this is Order."

This is what *you* expect to happen. This is not what neccessarily *will* happen. You are going it again, I'm noticing a trend. Stop it.

"A chaotic person, by the definition of chaotic that I've always had, If I slapped them in the face would have an equal chance to have a sudden desire to pick purple dandelions, or go to sleep, or eat, or sneeze, or jump up and down, or piss, or hug me, or frolick naked in a children's wading pool."

This is chaotic stupid, not chaotic. I'm sorry, I'm glad most of those days are gone. Chaotic is unpredictable, unpredictable does not necessitate COMPLETE RANDOMNESS. Let go of your notions of chaotic stupid.

"that is what it usually means to me to be "chaotic", and this also fits many definitions of "insane" in the real world. Doing something over and over and expecting a different result, I think is one way to define insane. That expectation of different results implies a direct mental disconnect and inability to see cause/effect relationships."

I'm sure it does fit *some*. However, I know more people that make the same mistakes OVER and OVER not understanding why their expectations in life never reach fullfillment. I wouldn't define them as insane.

"I disagree with you there. No human being can be "more chaotic than orderly" in real life and function in any society. You might always be late. But I bet you almost always wake up after you go to sleep. I bet you almost always crap a while after you eat. I bet you almost always stop at red lights when driving (not saying you always do, but doing so more often than not, is more orderly than chaotic....being more chaotic than orderly in this fashion is a good way to get dead). I bet you almost always wipe after going poo. I bet you almost always say the same thing whenever you answer the phone. I bet you almost always sleep in the same room when you are at home. Why? why not sleep on the oven? or behind the refrigerator? because you probably have a bed and it's more comfortable...so you choose, more often than not, to sleep in said bed. This is called "Orderly" behavior."

Why not? Because what you define is "chaotic stupid" once again. And again I'll say it, I'm glad this is almost completely gone from cf.

"I didn't mean to imply that all insane people would be considered truly chaotic. I meant to imply that all people who would be considered truly chaotic would also fit some sort of insanity definition as well. all bananas are fruits, this does not mean that all fruits are bananas."

Fair enough, I don't agree, but ok.

"I guess, I just believe that while the change from "lawful" to "orderly" in cf was wonderful as it nolonger meant "for the laws"

I do believe, however, that many chaotic characters I have met in cf still view "chaotic" as "against the laws" or "against civilization" or even "for nature".

having had some scientific training in real life, I can't help but see those who are "pro nature" in cf, and thus believe they have to choose "chaotic" as woefully ignorant of what "nature" is."

Here is where I think part of the problem is, you are tying too much of "real life" into cf. You run across a lot of treants and wood nymphs in your scientif training?

"Carnivors eat meat, if they don't, they die. this is a cause and effect rule. or, you could even say it's a kind of "natural law"

Nature. Echo systems. The predator-prey dynamic. A person could go a LONG way in defining this things as far more "orderly" than any human society, as there are steadfast, scientific laws and theories that they follow that are knowable. However, in a human society, a human can choose not to follow the "rules". A wolf on the other hand doesn't decide on a whim to start a Vegan diet."

For a long time scientist couldn't figure out how bumble-bees could fly, because they weren't aerodynamically sound according to what they understood at the time.

I'm done discussing this with you, you debate like Anne Coulter.

In conclusion, I'm glad YOUR idea of chaotic is not seen in CF. Chaotic stupid was annoying. This isn't a concession of defeat either, I think your arguments are flawed and I think you ignore anything you don't agree with, so I'm done. I look forward to discussing this with others though.

I too, am glad "chaotic stupid" in cf is for the most part gone. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone else more glad that it is mostly gone than I am.


However.....

I do believe that "chaotic stupid" more validly fits the cf helpfile definition of "chaotic" than 99.9% of chaotic flagged character that I have met in cf.

Let's look at that helpfile.

A chaotic ethos does not bind a person to anything other than behaving
chaotically. A chaotic person desires random chance, confusion, and the
unexpected in their own life and the world around them to accomplish their
goals. A chaotic person is free to act in whatever manner they so choose.
The lack of methodologies, plans, and habits allows the chaotic person to
gain what they desire. Their actions are done without thought to what the
LAWS are or to deliberately oppose to them.





It is my opinion, that in order to REALLY be chaotic, as per that helpfile, you almost have to be what we have come to term "chaotic stupid"....or at least very close to it.


**
The lack of methodologies, plans, and habits allows the chaotic person to
gain what they desire.
***

I have not met more than a half dozen outlanders that fit the "lack of methodologies, plans, and habits" criteria.


If you go by the helpfiles, to the letter, I believe the vast majority of chaotic flagged characters that I have ever interacted with should be neutrally flagged.



So, it comes down to this.

Lawful was changed to orderly,both in helpfile and in name, so as to include "orderly" roles that didn't mean "lawful" roles.

This was a very good change in my mind.


I believe that both the term "chaotic" and the helpfile are holdovers from the past, just as the term and helpfile for Lawful were. I do not believe that they accurately define or explain the majority of "chaotic" flagged characters.


So let me ask a new question, and challenge, to those who like to pick chaotic ethos but act in predictable ways with set methodologies/plans/habits....which the helpfile sais isn't chaotic.


How would you change "chaotic" either in name or in helpfile, or both, to more closely encompass the range of roles that you consider as "chaotic"...but which don't fit the current helpfile?


old boring Lawful changed to the new hotness of orderly, this was good.

How would you change the old boring CHaotic to the new hotness of.....what?

You have a pretty narrow-minded idea of what 'chaotic' means in CF. It doesn't mean "total randomness". That's one idea of what a chaotic character COULD be, but it's not the only one, and I think it would be a pretty boring one to play.

On some level any living being is orderly. We're made up of cells, each just one part of a whole thing and each with a purpose. Things we regard as being completely chaotic (Spontaneous impulse purchases, for example) happen because a certain signal traveled down a certain neuron at a certain time. Even the roll of a dice isn't completely random; it falls the way it does because of how it was thrown, the effect on it by air currents, things like that. You could say pure chaos doesn't exist at all. Everything that happens has a cause. But that's just not what chaos means in CF's alignment system.

Being chaotic doesn't mean you're a completely randomized being. It refers more to your personality, a way you have an inclination towards acting. That's how a person like A2, to use his own example, could be considered chaotic... despite sleeping in his bed instead of the oven.

I couldn't agree more that outlanders should be able to be orderly, and that a lot of them already are.