So, yeah, I just want to put out my opinion on CF's many classes and see if anyone agrees, or if they disagree, why. Debate is the herald of action and change, I think, so to get the ball rolling I am going to start some posts for each class under this header.

nt

...once I do, could one of you moderators delete this bookmarker post?

I've been waiting all day!

Seriously

I'm tired of reading the rehashing of Cabdru and immspiracy threads. Get the #### over it already.

Theses witch hunts are getting old...

.

This should probably have been in the other thread, but whatever.

This is why you ####ers should drop it:

I managed to not ever get killed by him. I was also in a cabal that was opposed to him and in hero range. I didn't get booted or frowned upon by imms while Cabdru was logged in. I didn't have a hard-on to go die to him and quite honestly a competent binder thief quite possibly would have set many of you leagues ahead in trying to kill him but none existed at the time he was at hero.

Given all these things, why in the hell would any of you go to the lengths you are to demonize him? Is it really worth it?

Those of you that still think you're right and he 'cheated' are just going to perma or semi-perma your way to the same items eventually anyway given the lower than normal pbase. Congraturation.

...

Rangers

Hey, rangers are pretty neat if you don't mind the not fun part where you spend 90% of your life camo'd, sitting by a snare, unable to even go out onto the eastern road to snag a kill because you are too scared.

Just kinda kidding there. Kinda. I would roll up a ranger if I wanted to explore, but I would hate being limited in what I could explore effectively.

They do what they were meant to do very well. So, cool in my book.

In the woods, a ranger seems pretty much unstoppable. This will make you hesitant to go near anything civilized. This will lead to boredom, which is the biggest killer of rangers. The challenge is finding people. After that, ranger skills give you all you need.

Thoughts on Ranger/Hunter skills:

Track - Most people walk on a road or travel over water. A walk down Eastern, Northern or Crumbling Road or over the Dragon Sea and the trail will be stale by the time you pick it up. Since roads (untrackable) lead to most areas, track is used when you see someone heading towards a cluster of 5 or so areas, like Darsylon, or the Past. At this point buzzing the areas works as well.

I'd like to see track work over more terrain. Exactly how civilized are the roads of Thera. They aren't the roads you drive on. Realistically, few would be paved and most would be wide paths of packed dirt. I'd call them semi-civilized. Ranger skills, including track, should still be somewhat effective there.

An automatic track command would be nice as well. It wouldn't change the power of the skill, but would take the monotony out of tracking every few steps.

Aerial Shot - Not a very useful skill. I don't see too many birds, so I just have to shoot at them when I see them ;) Having never been on the receiving end, I can only wonder what the devastating damage is. You have no control over where the bird lands, so in an area like the Open Plains they will get away. To use it, you'll have to spam where and have your finger on the trigger. The level of the skill is 36, hopefully the rank of the skills is because a player won't see birds until then. If it is meant to be one of the big skills of the class it is a disappointment. Rating: Cute.

Stalker of the Wilds - Why use it instead of observe? How many wilderness areas are big and generic enough that 'where' can't be used to stalk. Might be useful on the open plains, but if you aren't attacking right away then observe + track is better. Rating: Useless.

Timed Attack - 3 rounds of lag for a high damage + malediction attack. You give up three rounds of attacks and control for one big attack. A hunter's serpentstrike will match the special attack damage, allow your normal melee hits, and keep you in control. The jury is out on this one, but it doesn't look good. Rating: Better options available.

Archery - Archery + Wilderness Familiarity makes a ranger's defense sick. But, for a few reasons the bow is a seconary weapon. 1. It is damn near impossible to find a bow as good as a ranger staff/spear. 2. A good ambush needs a good weapon, I'm not going to go -6 avg to use a bow. 3. Serpentstrike gives the most damage during a fight and the object is to kill. Rating: Nice in theory.

Aimedshot - Two round lag for a skill that hits what I aim for less than 50%. The good affects don't happen enough. (sorry no stats to give you) The stun of the torso shot is just as likely to send them into another room, and when it does hit only lags for 1 round. Overall a disappointment. On the other hand, I haven't gotten a hitroll of 60 yet, and that may be a requirement. Rating: Unreliable.

Bards

This class can screw with anyone.

I still can't decide whether I love or hate bards.

I love them because they can contribute to any situation, thus making life a lot better for anyone they are with, and a lot ####tier for anyone they are against.

I hate them because they seem to always be making mine ####tier. Their maledictions are insane. They can make you deaf, unable to see anything but Xanadu, they do something like -12 to str and dex via various songs, which is hefty. Symphonic echos just turns you to crap unless you can do area spells, and they can just keep blathering the song over and over, rather than being an opening move. The thing I think I hate the most is that they can do all of that crap WHILE YOU ARE ASLEEP. How the HELL are you listening to them while you sleep? You can't even see the WORDS of the song scroll across your screen, you just get the ####ty effect and no reading material while you wait for the inevitable fiend or gang.

Considering how well bards tend to tank, why shouldn't they have to have you awake (thus incurring SOME risk) while they sing you to uselessness?

Consider having a player with excellent scroll/stave knowledge and you are in the ####. Curse, poison, scourge, weaken, plague, etc etc etc and then you get to fight a fiend while the tank-tastic bastard trips you or sings fire and ice, immolating you and doing huge damage!

DAMN! WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE PLAY A BARD?!?

...Because bash + axes can kill a bard. The question is, is a bard's siiiick versatility too much?

Hell, I don't know. At face value they seem stupidly powerful, but in practice you have to deal with song failure, lagging, and damage from enemies. Plus, people gun for them because we all know how much of a problem they can be. Kinda like how everyone rushes the necro or muter. The problem is that the bard will probably tank your ass, laugh, sing symphonic echos and then proceed to make your life ####ty.

Overall, the class is NOT frail, it IS powerful, and save vs. mental is a lot harder to come by than save vs. spell gear.

I am still torn.

>Overall, the class is NOT frail, it IS powerful, and save vs.
>mental is a lot harder to come by than save vs. spell gear.

FWIW, a decent chunk (half? half of the good stuff, maybe?) use or factor in conventional saves.

Of course, the easiest (?) answer to making mental saves is to be a race with good int and wis. The next easiest, possibly, is to come up with resist mental, whether by humping the leg of your friendly neighborhood healer or otherwise. I can't immediately think of another class that is shut down as badly by an affect that potentially almost anyone can get as bards are by mental resistance.

Edge and class specialization options also abound. Fortress of the Spirit, yo!

Thieves

I appreciate that someone took the time to make the thief class way less annoying than it once was...or did they? I am not sure if trading off dual backstab + bind legs + knife for ridiculous traps, insane poison effects, nigh-impossible to escape stealing, un-fun binding deaths and gut shot was quite the right antidote.

My main annoyance with this class is that they have always been lynchpins for gangs, and I ####ing hate gangs that start with sleep.

Without disecting every single thief path and their abilities, let me say this is what I'd like to see:

Binders nuked, with some skills leftover to divide between THREE thief paths.

What would those paths be?

The first: Thugs, just as they are now.

The second: A combination of poisoner and trapper (never going to happen, but hey!), with the high-end effects reduced to be less ghetto-fabulous.

The third: City Ties with somewhat improved lethality.

Other thieves are right where they should be for balance, except Thugs who have to waste practices on two trash skills that they don't tank well enough to ever make use of except in raid situations, to get to the good stuff.

Earclap costs alot to use, but you're paying an entire thief path to make mages (other than conjurers with servitors) bards and int-based AP's scared ####less of you. This is a fair trade-off.

There needs to be more ways to handle the 'flight' spell balance issue. Now that cheap shot's success rate isn't insane, it should probably have a thief edge that allows you to cheap shot people who are attacked while resting, sitting or sleeping i.e. by knife or backstab (without hiding only). Parting block's success rate is very low, it needs to be moved up in level, cost as much as cheap shot, and be much better at what it does IMHO. If you did this, you could even nerf cheap shot a little more and then flight wouldn't utterly hamstring any chance of sealing the kill while still allowing people to act in combat. Full thugs could probably use a point boost at hero via tweaking the thief point costs of strike of the abandoned/death strike lower. As it is I tried poison path and only could get apply poison method but no poison to use it with.

Binders are right where they should be, ridiculously strong solo, utterly weak if anyone should roll up who wants the binder's loot more than the victim's. They can already drop any offhand in the game, which does as much as deafen to screw ambushed bards (except perhaps those with proficient vocalist and/or musician's caress).

Poisoners have had 'q potion' nerfed from their repertoire of tricks. (Thanks Tremblay, you ####.) They need their other poisons tweaked up in power to compensate and the mind control poison helpfile needs to indicate this. Especially Fear poison, which should probably go from level 30 to 33 and up in thief points as well, and be tweaked to where it works one a sliding scale related to the opponent's morale as well as material composition (more potent should not necessarily be longer lasting), to the point of preventing offensive commands completely when properly concocted or the opponent's morale is trashed. Like bash, c iceball or co demonfire/blind for instance. I think that particular project is going to take a year or more to complete with small unannounced tweaks until they go where they are wanted. Neurological poison needs to visit it's various random effects on people more often dependent on their CON and the material composition. (again duration should not be proportional to potency). It should be suggested in the mind control helpfile that making people eat pills/food that are notably bad is a common tactic, similar to how dirt/disarm is suggested in dirt kicking.

Trapper's utility skills need to go up in cost and their trapping skills need to go down in cost. They should be able to dabble quite a bit in other paths even with full trapper, because their abilities are situational and limited. To make a trapper you pretty much have to build a situation where it's not only likely your opponent will pass through a given spot, it's guaranteed. That pretty much leaves Tribunal, Scion, Empire and Battlerager and that's it.

Assassins

Assassins are a good class, even if they are pretty predictable. If you are a melee class you can be sure they are going to do Kotegaeshi or Kansetsuwaza right off the block, then they might try to throw or do some kicks. If you see that wrist crunch from Kot or scream when they apply Kan, then you know it is usually about to get bad...and you can just run away!

If you are a mage, expect them to go for tiger claw followed by lag.
I like them, but they are just predictable.

I have always liked the idea of giving this class a "path" choice early-on. One would be as they are now, while the other would focus largely on stealth/death magic.

Then of course there is the cheapness of assassinate. Several classes have "cheap" things they can do to people, and it might surprise you to know that I don't rate this particular one very high. In all my time at CF I have been assassinated 3 or 4 times. What I like least about it is that an assassin can do this while naked, or next to naked, and then just take all your crap. It probably factors in hit roll, but I'd like to see this somewhat more dependent on hit/dam roll + quality of gear? AVG of weapon? These are all things I can only speculate on, though.

And poison darts. WTF is this skill all about anyway? I had it years ago and really saw it doing nothing but blowing an otherwise good surprise attack.

One thing I don't quite "get" with the class is the shield block skill. I don't know, it just seems so very "off" from the theme. And I don't picture a ninja-esque assassin chucking ninja stars at me and then ducking behind a tower shield and giggling. How he breaks my freeking wrist while one hand is holding a shield - I don't know.

All in all, I do like the class and I like the changes done to it. But, it could be so much cooler.

Assassins

>Then of course there is the cheapness of assassinate. Several
>classes have "cheap" things they can do to people, and it
>might surprise you to know that I don't rate this particular
>one very high. In all my time at CF I have been assassinated 3
>or 4 times. What I like least about it is that an assassin can
>do this while naked, or next to naked, and then just take all
>your crap. It probably factors in hit roll, but I'd like to
>see this somewhat more dependent on hit/dam roll + quality of
>gear? AVG of weapon? These are all things I can only speculate
>on, though.
>


I have mixed feelings about assassinate. On one hand, I think it succeeds far too often once you pass 8 stalks. Once you pass 12, it is virtually a foregone conclusion.

On the other hand, you're right that a person gets assass'd maybe 3-4 times over the course of the character's life; and the avg assassin only manages like ~40 PKs using assassinate. So how much of an impact does assassination have wrt overall balance?

Mixed in with the above is my feeling that assassins don't really "need" assassinate - stalk with or without martial trance is already very powerful. An assassin doesn't really need DR preps for the vast majority of enemies.

Also mixed in is my feeling that particular class and/or cabal combos are particularly vulnerable to assassinate. For example, ragers without detect hidden. Stalking those guys is like shooting fish in a barrel. Moreover, the kinds of people particularly vulnerable to assassinate are the really aggressive ones in terms of PK - the ones that drive the game and make it more fun for everyone. I'm not sure I like a skill that encourages people to, for example, teleport every 5-8 ticks, or hide out in remote locations, or plan for fights that only last 5-8 ticks - in order to drive the assassination risk down below 50%.

Overall, I think the skill should be revamped to add in more chance for failure, to make it so that there's no difference in success % once you pass 4 or 5 stalks, and to give a greater chance for the crippling effects and improve the debilitation of crippling effects in exchange for the above. The problem is there are a lot of assassin players that I'm sure like it the way it is.

>Also mixed in is my feeling that particular class and/or cabal
>combos are particularly vulnerable to assassinate. For
>example, ragers without detect hidden. Stalking those guys is
>like shooting fish in a barrel. Moreover, the kinds of people
>particularly vulnerable to assassinate are the really
>aggressive ones in terms of PK - the ones that drive the game
>and make it more fun for everyone. I'm not sure I like a
>skill that encourages people to, for example, teleport every
>5-8 ticks, or hide out in remote locations, or plan for fights
>that only last 5-8 ticks - in order to drive the assassination
>risk down below 50%.

Out of curiousity, how would you address this?

>to make it so that there's no difference
>in success % once you pass 4 or 5 stalks

This is not the status quo, but I'm pretty sure the status quo is a lot closer to this than you think, for what it's worth.

Seems like something a non-detect hidden rager might take, but then I've only been assassinated once in my lifetime of CF, so I'm not sure it's worth it.

Yeah, I know what you mean, there. I'm always afraid of assassinate coming down and plan for it, but at the same time, the only time I've ever been successfully hit with assassinate in its present incarnation was one of those "I'm sure this assassin in my range will find me and try to assassinate me here eventually, but since I'm wearing all fine leather gear and I'm getting such good XP I'm willing to roll the dice on that" situations.

Aside from grabbing area-explore gear with detect hidden, how do you "plan for it". I've heard other people say similar about taking precautions concerning assassinate but I'm unsure what they're doing exactly.

Staying on water all day doesn't sound very fun. Games are supposed to be fun?

Spending enough time where you can't be stalked to decrease or ruin the stalk counter, teleporting around instead of walking, not sleeping someplace where you can be assassinated, spamming where and who, fighting a lot, etc.

Warriors

Incredible implementation and detail has been given to this class, and though I think some things could be more finely tuned, it is definitely one of CF's strongest selling points. With the dexterity changes, every race now has at least one very strong point to offer as a warrior, where as before strength tended to trump all else in the early-game.

What would I like to see changed? Here goes, by spec:

Sword: An opening attack of some kind is really all I could see that would be desirable here. Overall a very balanced spec, even though it is very straight-forward. The "trickiest" skill in the set is cross, due to being able to cause a feint-effect and bleeding, while doing damage. However, flurry and jab are both good options in fights.

Mace: For the "heavy hitter" specs, of which mace is one (axe being the other), I would like to see more "crowd-killing", or skills that effect more than one person that the warrior is fighting. While I am not suggesting that they be able to do what AP's can do, it would be cool to see an occasional "sweeping shot" that strikes through the first target and moves to the next. Other than that, I'd offer that they maybe they be able to get a passive skill that aids them in further getting past parry or dodge, or shield blocks. I realize there are already some bonuses there.

Axe: Again, a crowd-killer skill of some kind would be nice. Also, I have never been able to visually conceive of how whirl would look in a fight (other than stupid). This one is a bit confusing because it is considered the most offensive spec, yet two of the skills do no damage whatsoever (hook and weaponbreaker). I would change the functinoality of "hook" so that even if the weapon is not disarmed, there is a chance to nearly jerk the weapon from the hand, which throws the victim off balance a bit, allowing for decreased defenses after that. Sadly, pincer is such an awesome skill that you could probably use it exclusively and the spec would still be ferocious. I'd suggest making the other skills a bit more attractive to compete (I try to make use of them, but not everyone does).

Polearm: Definitely one of the least-favored specs around. However, offers some interesting utility that seems to be trumped by similar skills from other specs. For example: Distance is arguably not as good as flourintine or spin. Cutoff is not as sure-a-thing as entwine (though it's automatic, so I call that one a wash). Entrap I just don't like because you see it coming the round before it hits. Of course, part of that strategy is that you see it coming, then you might flee and re-engage, thus getting nailed by charge set. Unfortunately, every class has a way to get past charge set, except shifters and orcs, I think. The oddest thing about the polearm is the size issue. Apparently if you are bigger, you do better with "distance". I understand the arm-reach thing, but I would think it is a relative situation that each individual warrior would adjust their tactics for. One could argue that non-big races are better dodgers, but as for me I just don't think that's enough.

A suggestion to make this spec more interesting would be to incorporate delay-with-attack strikes, which is a bad way of trying to say that it would be cool if entrap did something like this:

=================
entrap
You begin executing some movements with your polearm.
Assassin MUTILATES you!
Assassin EVISERATES you!

As Assassin is distracted by your technique, you swing your fist at his jaw! <----the attack would vary, randomly, or based on some other factors.
Your uppercut MANGLES assassin!

You entrap Assassin's weapon!
==================

Whip/Flail: One of the sneaky specs (the other being dagger). Tons of utility and a good amount of offense due to the difficulty of tanking flails. However, parrying suffers. Since it is a bit of a "risky" spec to use, offering no defense at all, I would like to see some further improvements on a couple existing skills. Namely eyejab and strip. I'd like to see eyejab usable as an opening skill. Like "hurl" for dagger specs, I think these skills should have only one round of lag if successful on an opening attack. This would make the spec slightly more vicious. Eyejab should also hit for some good damage...it sure looks like it would hurt, right?

Staff/Spear: Good for what it is supposed to do. Although I always wanted to see just a "skullsmash" skill with it. Oh well :-(

Hand-to-Hand: The spec went from bleh to scary within the last five years or so. I've had characters get beat down by hand specs where no other spec posed so much trouble, and I can't say I entirely agree with it. But hey, it's cool and it makes sense. I do think they should tank a little less well, however.

Dagger: The super-sneaky, nasty little spec that has become o-so-popular. Why? Well, if you're an elf it's almost moronic not to take the spec because your automatic skills can make even an unskilled PK'er something to watch out for. My feelings are a bit mixed on this one, because I absolutely tore people up with my old elf dagger spec, to the point where I felt bad sometimes (before the dex changes), and now they are even more dangerous. And I don't even consider myself a PK god. Are they too strong right now? Well, I don't know, but the Imms did just give a slight down-tweak so they must have been thinking the same thing.


I have nothing to say about Legacies, as I still consider them an awesome bonus to the class. I mean, warriors will still super popular way before Legacies came in, so there is no way we should complain about them (except maybe StSF...;-))

I know they added and edge to make pugil like a mini boneshatter, good props to that. Id also maybe like to see something like crescent have added flair (as you complete bringing up the crescent slash you follow through with the butt of the spear or something)

Sure it takes longer and they see it coming etc, but it lets you
disarm while blind ... I used it often with my little pole spec.
:) two warriors... both dirt to prevent disarm and poof, entrap...
Ahh the fun begins. I'm not sure you have distance worked out right
I played a couple of svirf poles and in low-mid ranks ran at groups
of three for laughs since I accidentally discovered I had a fair to good chance of survival and better than even of killing at least one.

(I did once manage to kill an entire group who were NOT in the middle
of ranking.. hehe wish I had that log. Mostly foolishness on thier
parts though, but it was still cool to act like the "I-don't-need-
to-take-any-of-your-things-'cause-I'm-so-cool-I-can-kill-you-any-
time-I-want-anyway-if-I-decide-I-suddenly-want-that-cloak" guy.
Sure it only lasted for five minutes this is, after all, me we are
talking about. I think I died 20 minutes later to some piddly mob)

After mid-ranks I can't tell you since at that point I suck in pk
with ANY combo. *rofl*