I know this was brought up a long time ago when elbow and knee went in, but I don't remember there ever being any kind of immortal response at the time. Basically, elbow and knee have turned kind of into worthless practices, unless you are a really high-int class with nothing better to do than spam them over other skills.

I think it would be nice if elbow/knee became automatic skills in combat, once they are mastered and you learn brawling. They don't have to fire off very frequently at all, maybe like 1:15 rounds for an elbow and 1:30 rounds for a knee. Hardly anything that would sway a fight, but marginally useful in aiding with ranking and something cool to be gained from putting hard work into 4 currently-underutilized skills.

Maybe it could even be an automatic ability that requires an edge to unlock. Just throwing an old idea out there again.

Rare automatic elbows and knees after gaining brawling would make the skills at least somewhat useful after the lowbie ranks (or worth practicing in the first place). I suppose this could be an edge too, if you wish to limit the ability more, or alternatively add a "hth expert" edge which would just make these fire off slightly more (with maybe even an automatic kick once in a blue moon).

I was thinking the same sort of thing, but I came at it from a slightly different angle. Maybe I've watched one too many UFC fights, but it just bugs me that the greatest hand to hand fighters in the CF world (hand spec warriors) are basically just boxers. I realize that the grappling aspect of unarmed combat would be a pain to code and probably ridiculously unbalancing (the closest things already in the game are the assassin's throw and ground control, which are pretty weak compared to what real grappling represented in-game could be like - imagine a five hundred pound fire giant pinning you down and punching you in the face while you lay there completely immobilized), but the punch, punch, punch, really quick series of punches, punch fighting style just doesn't seem right for the supposed masters of unarmed combat. Besides, lacing your fingers together for a crushing blow seems about as likely to break your fingers as it is to knock someone down, ironhands or no.

I'd really even be satisfied with a mostly cosmetic change that replaced one of your normal fist attacks with a knee or elbow once in a while, though I guess felar might not like that so much.

I guess to a certain extent I can just use my imagination and think of stun as a head kick or pummel as knees delivered from the clinch, but for hand to hand masters to get no real use out of a skill called brawling . . .

I definitely like the idea of elbow+knee being automated in combat.

While I'm "Not_An_Imm" either, I think the purpose of these skills is to benefit high intelligence races or high wisdom races with a little bit of extra skills to practice, and get a chance to learn brawling. For a fire giant, it's probably ridiculous to even consider practicing elbow/knee/kick, and I think that's sort of the point. However, for someone who will be using their hands a lot in combat, practicing those three to get brawling might not be such a bad idea.

But even for high intelligence - high wisdom races, these skills still seem sort of "bleh" to have. I think one should be able to spam practice them until they're able to get brawling. Up the requirements to get brawling (i.e. elbow/knee/kick/h2h have to be like 91% instead), and once you get brawling, have elbow/knee and maybe kick be automated in combat, firing off randomly, and not very often. Having that extra 10 hps of damage from an elbow or extra 20 damage from a knee in combat *might* be worth it for that fire giant to spend a little extra time with those skills. It'd definitely up the utility for the high intelligence - high wisdom races.