Can something be done for Two-Handed Paladins in regards to Bash. Its seems to me that unless a Two-Hand Paladin has Champions Stand its almost pointless to play in the higher ranks because you're just going to get bashed to death.

Now I am not saying that all Paladins should get Champions Stand but I would like to see some thought given to maybe providing them with an edge that gives them a better chance of dodging or weathering bashes, i.e. something similar to what Shield Paladins have, but maybe tweaked lower or perhaps a skill in which they lean into an oncoming bash reducing its effectiveness somewhat. Either way I think it should be relooked at because it just seems a little ridiculous to stare at your screen in a fight and see no commands go through as you are bashed to death.

Thanks

D

Change size?

If you're human and going up against a giant, maybe enlarge instead of reduce. If you reduce then he'll know he can't bash you as soon as he tries. Then, if he's smart, he'll reduce himself. If you're enlarged he'll try the bash and it will go through, it just won't lag you as much. He may not take the time to actually "consider" you to see what size you are.

If you're giant-sized and going up against another giant then definitely enlarge.

Depending on your virtues, I'd think most warriors wouldn't out-damage you if they're spamming "sub-optimal" bash and you're spamming 2h damage moves. By "sub-optimal" I mean "lagging approximately like trip".

Now, if they guy's got you in total command denial...then yeah, he'll probably outdamage you.

Getting bashed becomes much more tolerable if you can, you know, tank.

Bash from a character that can beat you in pure melee is one of the toughest things to deal with as a two-hand paladin, sure.

It's not insurmountable, and not every fight is meant to be easy with every character. When I'm playing a paladin, there isn't anything that looks like a free kill to me so much as an evil warrior does, even two-hand vs. greeting the avalanche.

I would argue that the toughest 1v1 matchup for a 2handed paladin is a smart orc (assuming no temperance here).

Orc cannot outtank two-handed paladin with aura and protection. No freaking way. Add here that most of paladin are Forties with light based weapons, and that even hero orcs have their wimpy around 35%, and you have the picture.

Unless we are talking of superbly prepared orc who used fallback in the right time, and stupid paladin, instead of changing target, was spamming something.

On a side note, paladins (e.g. elven ones) already have such skill. It is called evade. And I don't think storm paladins need more boost against fighters :P

I think you might want to rethink that statement. I'm not the player behind Hrudgir or whatever his name was, but I saw him get bashed to death a number of times by orcs or fire giants who command denied him. Which prevented him from fleeing reducing or enlarging himself...and I think he mentioned in his goodbyes that he didn't have Champions Stand.

No one, ever ever ever ever ever ever ever...

Did I mention ever?

Should die to a solo pally who is in Champs stand. Ever.

I think nep will verify this.

The orc can easily outlast him. At best, the paladin is going to lag him like trip (with templars moves, which also invaribly miss).

The orc, lets say, is wielding axes. This hurts as a paladin (even with essence of temp.

The Paladin cannot prevent flee/drink skin. If the orc has a bunch of exsanguinates, he will outlast the Paladins mana.

On the flip side, the orc can perma lag the paladin *easily*. The smart orc flees a few times, heals up with skins, waits for a few lucky rounds of combat, and proceeds to bash the paladin into the ground.

That one had Temp.

Out of curiosity, did you ever do one that that didn't?

I don't ask this because I think 2h pally needs to be able to deal with bash. IMHO, the only thing 2h pally IS really vuln to is bash (which isn't to say that other things can't whup them, but...), which makes sense.

I would in many ways rather have essence of fort than essence of temp. I'll die more, but kill substantially more as well. I think fort does need to be looked at though. Actually using aristae and spirit of the blade is exceptionally difficult when you actually need them as a paladin. At the point that I'm dying I'm usually mostly out of mana, and getting lagged to hell. Aristae isn't exactly cheap, and it seems to me that Aris is designed to be used with spirit. Spirit pops you back and the round it fires your aris. Last stand awesomeness.

>That one had Temp.
>
>Out of curiosity, did you ever do one that that didn't?

I think they all (eventually) had it, though I also saw a good number of fights without.

>I don't ask this because I think 2h pally needs to be able to
>deal with bash. IMHO, the only thing 2h pally IS really vuln
>to is bash (which isn't to say that other things can't whup
>them, but...), which makes sense.

It's sort of a double-edged sword. Bash is a factor in most of my deaths playing a paladin, but equally, warriors are also most of my kills, and usually the easiest kills.

I've had mixed feelings about the Fort virtue -- on one hand, parts of it are very niche, but on the other hand, Essence of Fort is consistently awesome for all occasions.

I'd be curious to know how essence of temp. and essence of fort. interact w/ regard to tanking and melee output. On my only paladin I had both, and kept them both active at all times. Fort. supposedly ups melee at the cost of defense, while temp. ups defense at the cost of melee. When both are active, does it just even out? Or are offense and defense both greater than they would be otherwise?

I want to say it's mostly a wash with both up.

Well that was dumb of me then.

I think as a pally, especially one with Fort (and both mine got fort early), something like 75% of my deaths (more probably) are due to bash. On the other hand, probably 50% of my kills are due to someone bashing me as well. However, as the ranks start to go up, I think that changes. Excepting bal'talon/defiance level 30 fortitude pally has essentially the same melee output as hero fortitude pally. The power curve sharply levels off. Because you are so huge at 30 (at least in my experience), you often have the same dam roll there that you end up having near hero, but you are facing people with half the hp, and FAR less protections. At hero you get someone like Hunsobo who is prepping dam redux for all his fights with you (or worse, an ABSed ap *shudder*) and the equation changes sharply.