No, I admit, I have not played since before outlander leaders got this skill back.

But I'm not happy about it. I'd MUCH rather have outlander leaders have gotten wall of thorns instead. Please let me explain why.


Wall of thorns was HARD as hell to flee through, but it was possible. It was also possible to quaff out/spell out if you weren't TCD(total command denial) or cursed.

Even given these limitations, it was a very powerful thing, both strategic and tactical.


Manacles got Nerfed, now they allow spell casting, sure, they have a short no-transport(1 hour? if that? never seen it last longer than a dirt kick in four magistrates played with this change) but I've seen first hand, and in logs, where that minor affect against spell casting and short no-recall was hardly an itch to a rampaging criminal.

Shackles also provides no defense against spellcasting/transport as far as I know.


So, what I am driving at, is just about ever tribby power (even guards) make a certain thing hard, but not impossible for a criminal (especially outlanders with subvert).

I just think insects, with their long timer and 100% no transport AND 100% no resting is a little harsh.

I thought it a little harsh that it could be counted on to come out of the inner nearly ever time there was a raid.


I would ask that maybe insects be toned down a bit? Maybe make them like manacles...where it makes it hard to word/teleport/gate...but not impossible? Give a retrieving magistrate *SOME* hope that if an outlander leader is on, attempting a retrieval solo isn't a death sentence? Especially considering that any non-wanted outlander can solo-retrieve with alot more ease because all he has to do is flee one step and can rest with impunity (most of the time, barring corruptness)

The real problem in the outlander vs. trib war is the huge home field advantage. Both have potentially very nasty cabal layouts, can block quaff, and other nasty things. This game is all about conflict, and I think such an imbalance reduces it. If things were changed as someone suggested, so that insects only worked in the wilderness, it would only work to strengthen the difference.

Outlanders have one very frustrating thing that comes to raiding. You can never know how many are on. This is not such a big deal when an average raiding group is 5 people, and you can assume the defense is at least not larger than your attack crew. But when the average raiding group is something like 2 or 3 people, the relative strength of the opponent can vary a lot.

I have a small suggestion to make, I'm not sure if it's really any good just thought about it when I just woke up. What if outlanders who went in chameleon would not be removed from the who list, much life shapeshifters were changed long ago.

Admittedly this is a class-specific skill, but do you propose nerfing that advantage for Tribunal? (or maybe allowing thieves, assassins, and duergar to join Outlander without getting castrated?)

If you are concerned the home court advantage, you would have you to remove the option of using guildguards as meat shields, the numerous hostile guards announcing the entrance of wanted outlanders, the summon spots for ambushing raiders and counterraiders and those wonderful pills for a hasty defense (and too easy placement of the Fetish if Insects don't land). Similarly, rangers would have to lose snare (the closest equivalent the Refuge has to summoning a gnome into a locked room with an undead army), and issues of 'fair' would have to be raised: like every Outlander would have to be given the ability to call beasts, and in defense of the Tree, against out of level raiders. It would also be necessary to have at least one Outlander in the cabal who has a recall spot somewhere on the same continent as the Refuge. I think making things more equitable for raiders and defenders would severely cripple that which makes these cabals novel.

There are two things I like about the Tribunal-Outlander war. The first is that one never quite knows what one is up against. It is a war of guile, deception, and paranioa, brash moments speckled with bits of daring do. Never quite knowing if I'm going to walk into an ambush or an assassination gets my heart going.

Second, it is a cabal war unlike any of the other wars. These two cabals are nothing like being in Battle, which speaks to the chest-thumping testosterone junkies in all of us, or the pure powergamer-ness of Scion (Despoil+ABS and Deathblow & Critical Strike seem made for each other), or the social & antisocial powers and policies of the Empire and Fortress.

I have been frustrated by the home court advantage Tribunal and Outlander both enjoy, but I've come to realize that in this war it is NOT about dominating the other cabal, but the ongoing conflict between civilization and wilderness, law and chaos.

The major criticism I have about raiding is true for all cabals--the principle way to have successful raids against defenders seems to hinge on pets, whether it's as a conjurer, necromancer, or druid. But that's a debate for another thread.

+1

Аффтар жжот, пиши исчё. :) (untranslatable, but it is approval)

I'd play an outlander if we got wall of thorns! Can't we get wall of thorns back?

If you're raiding Outlander to take the fetish, there is a *chance* you *might* get insects called on you by the spirit. Not a guarantee. And if you're worried about insects from players, there's a maximum of three players who can do that, and currently there is only one. That's pretty good odds for the person raiding.

If you're raiding Tribunal to take the scales, there is a *chance* you'll get manacles and sequester, if there's ANY Tribunal on. The odds are much in favor of the Tribunal, as they tend to have better numbers than Outlander at almost any given time.

As its been stated, sequester lasts longer by in range people. Generally, I'd say it lasts about 3 hours (which is really 4). Manacles allows *limited* spellcasting. I'd say it reduces the ability to cast by about 33-50%. Which if you're a mage, is very significant. Again, anyone in Tribunal has this ability. And only a total of three people in Outlander have any way to hinder transportation, there only being one at the moment.

I am NOT in favor of one lone retriever being able to at will. There should be risk involved. And if that risk is enough to deter you from trying at all, then I'd say that's a pretty good balance. But again, you are talking about IN RANGE affect here. If there is an Outlander raiding Tribunal, then that Outlander is going to have to deal with (at a minimum) the Tribunal and his/her special guards. At the maximum (being wanted) that Outlander will have to deal with city guards, special guards, ALL Tribunals, manacles, sequester. That's pretty goddamn risky if you ask me, and it will probably deter the Outlander enough to not try. Not all, but some (or most?).

I don't think you have a very good grasp of the war between Outlander and Tribunal. You're opinions seem heavily geared towards favoring Tribunal, which leads me to believe you haven't played an Outlander (or at least not to the degree you've played Tribunal). The war between Outlander and Tribunal has never been so balanced in all the time that Tribunal (arbiter) and Outlander (sylvan) have been in existence.

My only complaint is that Tribunal used to not be able to use the pillars in the spire if someone was raiding (or even a non-Tribunal in the spire). I wish it were still like that. It *can* still take Outlanders literally 5 minutes to get from wherever they were to the refuge. This usually leads to Outlanders amassing at the refuge and wait for their opponents. All Tribunal has to do is "eat golden" "quaff return" "cast word", etc. and invoke pillar. That takes 20 seconds, tops. Not very balanced there anymore. But everywhere else, it's pretty much spot on.

>My only complaint is that Tribunal used to not be able to use
>the pillars in the spire if someone was raiding (or even a
>non-Tribunal in the spire). I wish it were still like that.

The problem there is that it puts a *huge* premium on having Galadon as your city as a Tribunal, and not everyone's wanted to run the cabal as a pecking order of cities with Galadon being the "most promoted" spot.

As a necro, Galadon was ok, but Hamsah was very cool as well. Galadon lacked graveyard (that you could summon to) but had the closed room instead.

Hamsah had plenty of traffic and a nice big graveyard.

Seantryn had the nice graveyard but not enough traffic.

So certainly as a necro I didn't mind being a Hamsah dude for a while.

Doesn't Hamsah have closed locked rooms too? I have some recollection of it having a tower or two that fills such criterion.

I have not been able to summon to those rooms for a very long time now, so assumed they were made no-summon.

What I'm talking about there is the huge premium on having Galadon as your town specifically for fighting off raids, if you can't pillar there.

Hamsah and Voralian aren't terrible. Seantryn's pretty bad.

With outlanders, you don't necessarily know if the guy(s) with insects is on, as they ALL have chamo.

There is also the outlander tendency to all sit chamo waiting for the schmuck that tries a retrieval, and then gank them with a surprisingly large number of people.

I know as Hammond I knew what they all wore, pretty much, and would use locate object, and would regularly find that 4 or 5 were sitting chamo without coming out.

The chump without locate object gets to just eat a ganking.

Personally I would like to see outlander chamo not work if they outnumber tribs in an area by more than 2.

I would quite happily see trib manacles not work if they outnumber outlanders in an area by more than 2.

Insects, I do think is more powerful than manacles. Pretty sure that manacles never stopped me getting back out of the city to where tribs didn't want to follow. Insects, on the other hand, got me killed a fair bit because you could barely outrun the beastcall let alone a group of people with no wilderness movement lag.

As a necro, I used to get an army just to minimise the chances of having insects land on me.

>If you're raiding Outlander to take the fetish, there is a
>*chance* you *might* get insects called on you by the spirit.
>Not a guarantee/


First off, you are severely (in my opinion) understating how often the inner hits insects. I've played seven (off the top of my head, probably more) hero range tribbies since outlander went live. and I can tell you if I *DIDN'T* get insected when hitting the inner, along with thorn, spike growth, spores, thornheart, moonbeam, I was very surprised. Even with my necros, I would think I had about even chance to not get insected, *IF* I brought all my charmies.



>
>As its been stated, sequester lasts longer by in range people.
>Generally, I'd say it lasts about 3 hours (which is really 4).
>Manacles allows *limited* spellcasting. I'd say it reduces the
>ability to cast by about 33-50%.

This might be accurate. But my own personal experience sais it isn't. I have logs of watching hero mages raid the spire and have manacles stop 1 out of the first 13 spells he cast. Of course, again, that is out of range manacles, might be skewing my opinion of that.


Another thing about manacles. For melee classes, it isn't impossible to get gear that 100% negates any negative stat effects. And in hero range, this isn't even all that hard. I can't tell you how many times I've seen hero rangers/warriors solo raid, manacled, against 1 defender, his two guards, 4 called guards from the executioner, and STILL take the scales. I think the one class effected by manacles more than any other, is shifters. Because they can't use eq stat bonuses to overcome manacles.



>
>I don't think you have a very good grasp of the war between
>Outlander and Tribunal. You're opinions seem heavily geared
>towards favoring Tribunal, which leads me to believe you
>haven't played an Outlander (or at least not to the degree
>you've played Tribunal).


Sure, I'll not quibble. just as there are people who play mass-loads of villagers, or outlanders, or empires, or scions....I most often do my best in Tribunal. Now, I have played four outlanders, two of which have gotten to hero lvl's. I *LOVED* retrieving from the spire solo. Even against 2-3 opponents.....flee/rest. I loved it. Now, I haven't taken part in all that many raids of the inner, but I have seen many from the viewpoint of lowbie tribbies.


Just my opinion. With wall of thorns, at least there is a CHANCE (however slim) that you can escape a well-laid trap(that you didn't know was there because your foes had been chamo for 3 hours) short of killing all your foes.

With insects, I don't see that as much of an option. At least, the insects I remember. Of all my hero tribbies, the only one who survived attempting to solo raid the refuge with insects and ONE defender, was Odrirg. For all the others, if one defender was there, insects = death. probably not because of insects alone, but because of all the other stat effect maladictions the inner puts out. On the other hand, I've seen many...many...solo outlander heroes attempt a raid of the spire against multiple defenders and live.


Now, and without sarcasm, I am willing to admit the possibility that all of those outlander players are just that much better than me. But I'm rather convinced that the inner in outlander is just alot harder to take down, because of the maladicts....and add in ten or so hours of no resting, Damage over time, and no travel...and it gets frightening.

Now, whether the outlander inner SHOULD be that much harder to raid, is a decision up to the imms, I'm cool with that. But I don't think anyone will convince me it isn't harder.

Anyway...to sum up....


I'd *MUCH* rather face a surprise outlander gang with wall of thorns and have a small chance at escape, than insects and have zero(as I remember them...someone said they had been toned down, but I don't know any specifics about that)

Are you perhaps forgetting that the Provost (and the rest of the Spire) still has his guards even when he doesn't have the Scales? Which means he/she can pretty much retrieve solo even facing opposition (those lieutenants are mean).

Not to mention the bloody manacles of the Vindicator which hurt EVERY move you make, no matter what it is. Very hard to survive if you're the least bit hurt.

And if I'm not mistaken, the Vindi, Justiciar and Provost can all see chameleon when they are in the cities so they can tell who's hiding at the refuge.

You should be comparing leader abilities when you're discussing call insects, after all.

And having been a ranger, raiding the Spire solo is not something that is remotely easy because you give up virtually all of your advantages by going in town. And to be honest, the Spire isn't the Outlanders only enemy and none of them have green stuff near their cabals (save the Fort, which is why Outlanders hunt there). Comparatively speaking, Tribunals don't lose anything coming to the tree if they are fighting anyone other than rangers/druids except the ability to see who's there. Easily (too easily) countered by fairie fire (for which there is no save).

Heck, you want to complain, complain about the Scion power that taints the forest that Outlanders can do nothing about and which will really hurt anyone hiding in it or getting herbs from it. And yet Outlanders can not remove the taint by the Nightwalker to balance things out.

My last point was just to bring up that there are always going to be things that you feel your favorite cabal is getting the short end of the stick on. The good side of Tribbies is that you don't really need the Scales to do anything except use the pillars and manacle, I don't think you lose anything else do you?

>And if I'm not mistaken, the Vindi, Justiciar and Provost can
>all see chameleon when they are in the cities so they can tell
>who's hiding at the refuge.

You are. :)

>Heck, you want to complain, complain about the Scion power
>that taints the forest that Outlanders can do nothing about

I wouldn't say nothing. There are some fairly direct things many characters can do.

>You are. :)

That's neither shocking or unusual for me :P

Is this a recent change? I thought they could, but then I'm not keeping up with things.

>
>>Heck, you want to complain, complain about the Scion power
>>that taints the forest that Outlanders can do nothing about
>
>I wouldn't say nothing. There are some fairly direct things
>many characters can do.

Last time I checked, preservation didn't do anything to this at all, which surprised me. I never tried burning it though, so I suppose that's a possibility.

As far as I know, the tribby least likely to go out hunting outlanders, was the one with the power to sense chamo...in the room they were standing in. that's it as far as I remember from when I was about. May have changed since then though.

Check out his PBF. The ultimate Outlander killer and the most likely instigator for removing that power from Tribs.

Per recent changes, Justiciar's and Provost can see camouflage. Or chameleon for that matter. But in order to do so, I'm 90% certain they require the scales. Vindicator's don't get the love.

Note, I'm not arguing that raiding Outlander is a joke. I think the two cabals match pretty well against each other, but since you're coming at this from the Trib side I'll argue the other side.

>First off, you are severely (in my opinion) understating how
>often the inner hits insects. I've played seven (off the top
>of my head, probably more) hero range tribbies since outlander
>went live. and I can tell you if I *DIDN'T* get insected when
>hitting the inner, along with thorn, spike growth, spores,
>thornheart, moonbeam, I was very surprised. Even with my
>necros, I would think I had about even chance to not get
>insected, *IF* I brought all my charmies.

The thing in here that you've recognized that's true is that the Primeval Spirit, by its nature, does not stand up well to large numbers of raiders. IMHO, the Executioner handles much better there.

>This might be accurate. But my own personal experience sais it
>isn't. I have logs of watching hero mages raid the spire and
>have manacles stop 1 out of the first 13 spells he cast. Of
>course, again, that is out of range manacles, might be skewing
>my opinion of that.

It's not a joke if you're a mage. I mean, how many non-shifter Outlander mages do you see? This is one of the reasons for that. An Outlander invoker or transmuter is far from a joke, but it's scary to deal with that spell failure chance with (in some situations, such as many but not all raids) nothing you can do to prevent it.

>Another thing about manacles. For melee classes, it isn't
>impossible to get gear that 100% negates any negative stat
>effects. And in hero range, this isn't even all that hard. I
>can't tell you how many times I've seen hero rangers/warriors
>solo raid, manacled, against 1 defender, his two guards, 4
>called guards from the executioner, and STILL take the scales.

It's not impossible, but it's also not nothing. Next time you play a melee class, gear yourself appropriately... then try to add an additional 10-15 dex to that. You can do it, but you make a lot of sacrifices to achieve that.

>Sure, I'll not quibble. just as there are people who play
>mass-loads of villagers, or outlanders, or empires, or
>scions....I most often do my best in Tribunal. Now, I have
>played four outlanders, two of which have gotten to hero
>lvl's. I *LOVED* retrieving from the spire solo. Even against
>2-3 opponents.....flee/rest.

That works great, up until you're wanted doing it.

Tribunal's equally safe; personally, if I need to retrieve, I prefer to kill everyone and then do it. You can try to finish the kill in Galadon, assuming the necromancer you're trying to kill isn't in the Soup Kitchen. And then, win or lose, see 'up until you're wanted'.

The five Battle, Fortress, Empire, whatever waiting on Holy Road in Galadon to gang you as soon as you step to the Captain? Also equally protected. I've never personally played an Outlander who didn't make a lot of enemies in other cabals; if you're an evil Outlander mage, for example, expect all of the above.

>Just my opinion. With wall of thorns, at least there is a
>CHANCE (however slim) that you can escape a well-laid
>trap(that you didn't know was there because your foes had been
>chamo for 3 hours) short of killing all your foes.

If you have word of recall, sure. :) Otherwise it can get dicey.

>With insects, I don't see that as much of an option. At
>least, the insects I remember. Of all my hero tribbies, the
>only one who survived attempting to solo raid the refuge with
>insects and ONE defender, was Odrirg. For all the others, if
>one defender was there, insects = death. probably not because
>of insects alone, but because of all the other stat effect
>maladictions the inner puts out. On the other hand, I've seen
>many...many...solo outlander heroes attempt a raid of the
>spire against multiple defenders and live.

Insects are only an issue if you need to get away. :) Obvious, but there it is.

There's all kinds of other factors that make raiding Tribunal vs. Outlander different, e.g. the cabal layouts, the cabal surroundings, but most of this has been examined exhaustively in threads in the past.

Ok. Good points.


I'd still rather face WoT than Insects *PBPBPBPBPBPBBLPLPBLPLPLPLPPBPBPBP*

Heh.

> That works great, up until you're wanted doing it.

> Tribunal's equally safe; personally, if I need to retrieve, I prefer to kill everyone and then do it.

I think this is where the annoyance for Tribs is. Outlander seems to gravitationally pull members who are all too happy to remain chamo for real life hours until a hapless tribunal tries to retrieve. Outlander know exactly what is up against them should they need to retrieve. I wouldn't object to Tribunals being able to detect chamo inside the Spire only. It's impossible to kill someone before you raid if you can't see them and don't even know they are in the realm.

Bloody shackles are nasty, I agree. You know their restrictions though. Insects are almost as nasty and have far, far less restrictions. Take into consideration the difference in walking speeds of most Outlander to Tribunal over forest areas, you're literally walking the green mile if you try to escape the Refuge. I must remind myself to check out whether an orb of travel will work in that situation...

There are currently two (maybe three) possible Tribunal members that can see camouflage. How often do you see a stealth class in Outlander? Tribunal?

Outlander basically has next to zero chance to see hidden. And Tribunal also tends to have more transmuters, who can cast duo dimension. So this is again another point that doesn't really matter, because this is fairly balanced.



It's better not to walk at all if you're affected by bloody shackles. Very few people can use bloody shackles, just as very few people can use insects. If either team has to face the other with these possibilities, yes, retrieving, raiding, or even going near the other's terrain, will be dangerous. Welcome to Carrion Fields.

That might be true if ALL tribs could hide.

And if tribs could chase unwanted outlanders into Galadon.

>Take into consideration the
>difference in walking speeds of most Outlander to Tribunal
>over forest areas, you're literally walking the green mile if
>you try to escape the Refuge. I must remind myself to check
>out whether an orb of travel will work in that situation...


You realize that there is a civilized area maybe what, six steps away from the Tree? That's a "green mile"?

Assuming it is six (even though I think it may be more), that equates to six entangles once you START to flee, not including all the ones you've already eaten (and those silver pills are just so darn expensive!). Of course what are you going to do if you make it that far?

There are certain situations that I never ever want to put myself in again and one of those is to be insected within the Refuge with a briar outside and getting entangled by a druid. That's no fun.

I realise that I will never win any argument that makes Outlander look overpowered, since there are so many people who seem to love playing them, so I will refrain myself from even trying. I just agree with the original poster in that I think WoT would be more balanced than insect swarms.

I can't believe I am not tempted to roll a druid myself...

>Assuming it is six (even though I think it may be more), that
>equates to six entangles once you START to flee, not including
>all the ones you've already eaten (and those silver pills are
>just so darn expensive!). Of course what are you going to do
>if you make it that far?
>
>There are certain situations that I never ever want to put
>myself in again and one of those is to be insected within the
>Refuge with a briar outside and getting entangled by a druid.
>That's no fun.

The problem with that scenario is that it requires the druid to play to keep you, rather than kill you. If you're not outnumbered or desperately outclassed, you should have an excellent chance to kill them or beat them away long enough to figure out some way to survive.

>I realise that I will never win any argument that makes
>Outlander look overpowered, since there are so many people who
>seem to love playing them, so I will refrain myself from even
>trying. I just agree with the original poster in that I think
>WoT would be more balanced than insect swarms.

You just haven't spent enough time playing Outlander. The Trib-Out war looks daunting from either side in many ways. If you mostly play only one side, you only see what's scary about the other.

Anyway, a lot of it comes down to class vs. class. Something like a mace warrior (if, again, not massively outclassed as a player) that can slow down entangles with cranial is going to often tool the druid in your scenario. He has a ton of move. He's not especially afraid of insects/entangle unless there's a gang backing it. Conversely, wall of thorns is a lot harder for that guy to deal with because he can't word straight out of combat without Enigma. If you're a mage instead, those situations completely reverse.

It is though it isn't the way out. I'm fairly happy with the Outlanders as they are and since my next characters aren't going to be enemies of most outlanders I can live with the way things are, but tell me: How is running to prosimy village or that zombie infested mansion going to save me when I try to retrieve and end up facing four mudsexxing sitting in onespot giggling outlanders that snare me sleep me and put insects on me? Atleast make it so that insects do an innitial damage in the same range as rot cause ranger/bard combos became so much worse with insects handed out to outlander leaders.

>It is though it isn't the way out. I'm fairly happy with the
>Outlanders as they are and since my next characters aren't
>going to be enemies of most outlanders I can live with the way
>things are, but tell me: How is running to prosimy village or
>that zombie infested mansion going to save me when I try to
>retrieve and end up facing four mudsexxing sitting in onespot
>giggling outlanders that snare me sleep me and put insects on
>me?


Well, you played Gotakanal. How many times did that happen to you? You never died, so you must have done something! ;) But no, I don't think the Mansion would help there. I was directing that to the people that had to face a solo druid/ranger and thought the situation was hopeless because they had to walk the "Green Mile" back to Arkham. I mean, you're fighting a ranger, and rather than walk back to Prosimy, why not go to the Mansion? It's not THAT easy to track someone in the wilds. Thinking that someone can track you AND managed to entangle you every step you take just shows that you haven't played a class with entangle.


>Atleast make it so that insects do an innitial damage in
>the same range as rot cause ranger/bard combos became so much
>worse with insects handed out to outlander leaders.


Raiding Trib (for the scales) is honestly just as bad unless you're playing an empowerment class. The only people who think it's not are people like Odrirg, that haven't done it a few times. The reason I could tell Odrirg hasn't is because virtually everything he wrote in his post is either an exaggertion or outright false - on par with "guards have no timers" false.

The trouble I had with outlanders when I played gota was that they never ever ever ever ever EVER tried to raid for the scales when people (or just myself) were online.

If we take the scales, sissy tribs never try to retrieve them; you just log off, leaving us with nobody to fight... :>

>I
>>can't tell you how many times I've seen hero
>rangers/warriors
>>solo raid, manacled, against 1 defender, his two guards, 4
>>called guards from the executioner, and STILL take the
>scales.
>
>It's not impossible, but it's also not nothing. Next time you
>play a melee class, gear yourself appropriately... then try to
>add an additional 10-15 dex to that. You can do it, but you
>make a lot of sacrifices to achieve that.
>


I'd LOVE to see a log of a ranger raiding solo, manacled, against a defender, his two guards, and called guards from the Executioner and still take the scales. That would have to be one excellent ranger... and one total noob defender. No offense to Odrirg, but there is no way in Hell he accomplished this.

First, Never claimed I had ever done it. I said I've seen it. From the perspective of a young tribby watching said hero outlander ranger trounce a defender and take the scales.

I've seen it more than once.

No, I'm not going to take the time to search through all my logs (as I log every moment of every char)....mainly because my "search" feature on my computer has been broken ever since I *STUPIDLY* tried to install a retail version of Macafee that funked up all sorts of things on my comp. so "searching" for the correct instances I am referring to would require scrolling through every log I have. Not goin to happen.

>First, Never claimed I had ever done it. I said I've seen it.
>


That's why I called it "An Aside". Reading comprehension is a two way street! :)


>
>I've seen it more than once.
>


If by "seen it more than once," you mean "seen it a dozen times," sorry, but I do not believe you - you're exaggerating. If you have ever played a ranger and RAIDED the spire 20-30 times (and by RAIDED, I mean actually walking INTO the Spire, taking the Flag, and then taking the Scales)against opposition, you'd realize what a challenge that is. It really does take a smart, skilled ranger and a total noob Tribunal defender to pull that off.

Now if by "seen it more than once," you mean "twice." Now you're closer to reality.


>No, I'm not going to take the time to search through all my
>logs (as I log every moment of every char)....mainly because
>my "search" feature on my computer has been broken ever since
>I *STUPIDLY* tried to install a retail version of Macafee that
>funked up all sorts of things on my comp. so "searching" for
>the correct instances I am referring to would require
>scrolling through every log I have. Not goin to happen.


That's OK, Man. The thing is, it's obvious from your intial post that you haven't played an Outlander Hero (or at least, a non-communing outlander hero) for an extended period of time. If you had, you'd know that sequester lasts for much longer than 1 tick when a PK Trib does it. You'd know how hard it is to solo raid with a defender there. You'd know that manacles' effect on spellcasting is hardly minor. You'd know that manacles while raiding is more than a minor itch. You'd know that you were wrong about shackles. I mean, without looking back, I think almost everything you wrote is outright false. Along the lines of those people (that you needlessly mocked) who said that guards have no timers.

Don't you think you should know what you are talking about before you make suggestions re: game balance?

I could do it. But I admit defender was a complete newb. And I was fully prepped, superbly equipped (for felar at least), and retreating each time total number of guards was > 3 (to get rid of them).

It takes hell lot of time and some luck, but it is possible. If your opponent does not know what he is doing and his class is not that hot against felar ranger.

I've seen MANY time when solo attacker was raiding Tree with X number of out-range Outlanders, killing two defenders, taking Fetish, and walking away. It is pretty doable if you know what you are doing and know how to abuse Spirit's weaknesses/ your cabal powers.

"If you're raiding Outlander to take the fetish, there is a *chance* you *might* get insects called on you by the spirit. Not a guarantee. And if you're worried about insects from players, there's a maximum of three players who can do that, and currently there is only one. That's pretty good odds for the person raiding."

As Gotakanal I had a rather pimp set when it came to saves and it was rather rare (if I wasn't raiding with a huge group of pc's/npc's) that I didn't get insected by the inner. I think I can count the raid attempts made by outlanders when I was online on one hand. Which is fine, cause I guess we are all a bunch of sissies who didn't like the odds of being stuck in Promisy with no moves since the inner also got entangle/spikegrowth/thornheart/all_other_druid_nastiness, and the trib inner calls GUARDS! Did I mention outlanders have higher movementspeed than just about every enemy of the Tree in forests? So all that aside, I'm yet to play my first outlander (it's on the sketchboard though), to claim that Outlanders have it rougher/worse retrieving/raiding than tribunals is a bit rich from my onesided point of view....

>No, I admit, I have not played since before outlander leaders
>got this skill back.
>
>But I'm not happy about it. I'd MUCH rather have outlander
>leaders have gotten wall of thorns instead. Please let me
>explain why.
>
>
>Wall of thorns was HARD as hell to flee through, but it was
>possible. It was also possible to quaff out/spell out if you
>weren't TCD(total command denial) or cursed.

I personally am glad they didn't get wall of thorns.

>Even given these limitations, it was a very powerful thing,
>both strategic and tactical.
>
>
>Manacles got Nerfed, now they allow spell casting, sure, they
>have a short no-transport(1 hour? if that? never seen it last
>longer than a dirt kick in four magistrates played with this
>change) but I've seen first hand, and in logs, where that
>minor affect against spell casting and short no-recall was
>hardly an itch to a rampaging criminal.

There is a log of Nefla having 4 hour sequester from Taqutin. It doesn't always last a short time.

>Shackles also provides no defense against
>spellcasting/transport as far as I know.

Incorrect. It is shorter than manacles I think, but I'm pretty sure it still has the spellcasting and I'm sure it does sequester.

>So, what I am driving at, is just about ever tribby power
>(even guards) make a certain thing hard, but not impossible
>for a criminal (especially outlanders with subvert).
>
>I just think insects, with their long timer and 100% no
>transport AND 100% no resting is a little harsh.
>
>I thought it a little harsh that it could be counted on to
>come out of the inner nearly ever time there was a raid.

What's harsh is there there is no save for insects, meaning it works 100% of the time (assuming you don't fail the power, which of course the spirit doesn't).

>I would ask that maybe insects be toned down a bit? Maybe
>make them like manacles...where it makes it hard to
>word/teleport/gate...but not impossible? Give a retrieving
>magistrate *SOME* hope that if an outlander leader is on,
>attempting a retrieval solo isn't a death sentence?
>Especially considering that any non-wanted outlander can
>solo-retrieve with alot more ease because all he has to do is
>flee one step and can rest with impunity (most of the time,
>barring corruptness)

If you are going to ask for something, ask that insects not be useable in civilized places. I'm not sure why they aren't wilderness only, but it seems a bit silly. BTW insects was exactly what outlander leaders needed IMHO. I'm so glad you waited until after I was out of outlander :P I know it is a conspiracy.

I don't think you have the insight into insects that you think you do.

First off, it's a spell, not a power. It works VERY much like mosquitos does, minus the capability of hitting the caster. It has a very low success rate in the city, and a very high success rate in the wilderness. Since it is a spell, and not a power, save vs spell works well against insects. Again, you're chances of saving are lessened in the wilderness.

The spirit is obviously different, and I don't think it should fail insects if it tosses them out. Inners are meant to be tough. Does the Executioner "fail" to call guards? I do think the executioner should use manacles though. But not a level 60 manacles. That'd probably be wrong.

But they have succeeded in town 100% vs me (as far as I can tell) granted that could be because there isn't a failure message, but I don't know.

If svs work against insects then it must not have a failure echo for the target because again as far as I can tell, it has 100% success rate.

The executioner example is a little silly. No it doesn't fail to call guards, but as that isn't something that affects your character (like poison or plague or some other spell that would show up in affects) it makes sense not to have a save. Also, the executioner doesn't do anything else, and IIRC from Nefla, the guards only assisst vs wanted characters.

I'm not saying that either inner is a beast, but perhaps failed insect calls needs a message?

You can save against them. Probably no failure message for foe, but it is possible to fail them.

And yes, if you are indoors/civilised, you chances to land them are very low. Doable, but low.

In addition, what you all have missed so far, insects have some hard coded anti-gang features. And this anti-gang features are actually hitting in when beast call/treant/CoW is used (bug? I am not sure).

Do manacles have anti-gang features? I haven't noticed any :P

My druid just ignored executioner's guards from the point of getting CoW.

Worth bearing in mind that at least one extra outtie class is essentially a powerhouse type and those types are very well suited to raids.

>Manacles got Nerfed, now they allow spell casting, sure, they
>have a short no-transport(1 hour? if that? never seen it last
>longer than a dirt kick in four magistrates played with this
>change) but I've seen first hand, and in logs, where that
>minor affect against spell casting and short no-recall was
>hardly an itch to a rampaging criminal.

It can be a fair bit longer than that. It's longer when used by an in-range Tribunal than an out of range Tribunal.

Also consider that there's little guesswork in manacles. If someone is wanted, it works. If someone is wanted, it doesn't work. Compare this with insect swarm and calling and praying.

This gives you some interesting tactical choices to make with manacles in a PK. Do I throw them right away because of their other disadvantages? Or do I wait until I think I'm winning and throw them in an attempt to seal the kill? Do I get a lowbie Tribunal to do them, in which case it frees me up to worry about other things in a fight, or do I do them myself and have a longer sequester at the cost of having one more thing to worry about?

Outlanders didn't have any major 'there is a serious chance you're dead as soon as this lands' skills.

Manacles is pretty much the 'everything' killer. It nerfs dex (melee classes) prevents spell casting (mage classes) and that pretty much leave priests that can handle it and still fight well enough. The sequester was just because its so easy to escape from the city anyway (and therefore escape all the nasty ass guards that are there abouts). Tribunal has drawbacks, it can only use these skills on wanted characters inside a city. That's pretty niche and easily avoidable by any outlander. But they're way over-powered when it hits.

Now, the Outlanders have unspeakably nasty ability to do harm. With all the rangers and druids (entangle+traps), and the ability to deny ALL transportation with insects it pretty much makes any forest a death trap. It seems unfair there aren't drawbacks to insects, it can be used almost anywhere, when there are so for manacles.

Yhorian.

Outlanders didn't have any major 'there is a serious chance you're dead as soon as this lands' skills.

I'm not sure why they should. I'm not sure the trend of giving out insta kill powers is a good one.

I'm not keen on an edge that improves pwk success, for example!

A) Insect Swarm was toned down.

B) How often do you honestly see non-wanted Outlanders who aren't recentlyish dead?

>A) Insect Swarm was toned down.

Ahh, didn't know, hadn't seen that post.

>B) How often do you honestly see non-wanted Outlanders who aren't recentlyish dead?


Often actually, when I was playing both a magistrate and an outlander.

Great thing about outlander, is the WIDE variety of valid roles. Not all of them mandate perma-wantedness. Also, some of them actually ALLOW somewhat tactical thinking (Ie. being sneaky about breaking the law so you DON'T get wanted...so retrieving is a cake-walk)


Sure, you have a point, a significant portion of the "Perma-outlander" players never CHOOSE that kind of role over the "Frack the law!!WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!LAW DON'T GO 'ROUND HERE, LAWDOG!!!! COME OVER HERE SO I CAN VIOLATE YOUR PUPPY WHILE I DANCE IN THE FLAMES OF YOUR MOMMY'S HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!" role. Doesn't mean it's not picked by some, or not valid.

Honestly, I die to outlanders a lot precisely because I DON'T know they are outlanders because I've never seen them wanted.