I'm going to try and make this a discussion, and not an argument or a flamefest. I feel the new magic system might need to be looked at. I'll give my reasons for this.

The way the system works now, it seems to do nothing but strengthen the imbalance between magic and ragerdom at any given time and to unreasonably favor the village. I will provide examples.

Earlier today, I could see magic grow stronger every time a villager died. This was great, except it then weakened everytime he would unghost. This tells people "Hey, gang down and multikill those villagers, and your recall potion won't ever fail"!

Conversely, a little bit later there were (to my knowledge, it may have been more) 8 villagers online at once. My damn pouch of nourishment failed something like 8 times in a row to make food, I was failing about every 3rd spell, it was just insane. What this tells the village is "Hey if we log in all at once, half our work will already be done for us because just us all being on at once will #### up magic so bad"!

I mean, I'm open to being convinced that I'm wrong on this but it seems to me that all this will do is encourage even more bandwagon hopping than we already have, and even more mass logins and outs.

Does anyone else feel this way?

The Rites were certainly a good test of the system and I bet we got
some interesting data out of it to review for the Veil.

Thanks for the feedback from the magic side of the fence.

Qaledus

I was really working to not sound too critical, since I know there's going to be stuff to be worked out yet.

All I can say is that the prospect of teleport potions failing *multiple times in a row* scares the crap out of me.

Its the fact that coupled with potions failing multiple times (I've have 3 in a row fail) that ragers also get a power boost (more dam redux, stronger damage on deathblows, more spellbane power) and that your chances of changing the sway of magic are zippo. Their mere presence makes magic really weak. I am wondering why then that magic doesn't go super-powered when there are no ragers on and people like Enarn and Kanaev are about at hero level. I've even asked when the head has been held for ages and there are people like Kanaev about - apparently, even then, it just hit normal.

I think its just too hard to swing magic the other way right now. Ragers loot their mages, giving magic a double whammy - and Nexus+mages who care and/or understand have only the chance to boost magic when they go mob hunting. Killing mages for their uber-magic gear screws the vale anyway. Ontop of that, I've been locating gear I thought would repop because I threw it in the vault - that stuff has stayed in the vault for days (real time) and not disintegrated. Meaning, stuff like embossed rings that I thought would be worth big magic points (I was told barely blipped) stay in the vault. Effectively, lowering the total amount of rare equipment in the world dramatically over time if you just try to keep magic -normal-. I very quickly ran out of stuff I could gather, and even now my mage is a higher level I still run out very quickly of options/choices.

I think if things are going to sit in the vault like that, there should be some kind of over-all weighting system. Something along the lines of - all the items that are still in the vault act as a counter-balance that is consistant. Not just a 'one shot boost'. This means, if you loot a mage and dump in a bunch of area explore magic gear, thats going to negate the Drillmaster's effect when he logs on. The rate at which the vault is filled (as far as I can tell) this would add up toward crashes/reboots but at the same time, stuff will be disintegrating at a constant rate too making the overall balance even out.

Just my rant on how crazy it drives my low level mage characters when the hero range has lots of rages, and I'm donating hammer pendants (about as good as I can score) that are just a drop in the bloody ocean.

Yhorian.

This is still something that's not set in stone. I've made adjustments to how the Veil fluctuates as recently as last week.

That said, I don't ever really foresee Magic not being hurting when the Rites are going on and a dozen Battle are around.

Something that probably is not obvious and I'm hesitant to reveal is that Nexus (probably the most common source for information on the state of the Veil, if you're not Battle) is tied to magic and brings their own biases to the table -- at the point they'd consider magic to be "normal", it's actually a decent amount stronger than it ever was pre-fluctuations. Potentially depressing if you're a mage, but not necessarily indicative of game balance issues. :)

As in all of them count towards the viel?

How can you tell whether or not magic is in power?

I'm guessing invoker spell goes up, but what boosts do other mages get?

About the only use for the spell.

Among other things, all your spells get better/worse, not unlike a global spellcraft or anti-spellcraft. Shifters, this translates into form differences somewhat. Conjurers also see a difference in servitor HP and some other stuff.

At super low or super high levels of magic, some very cool unique things start to happen for/against each side. In normal play it's very rare to see either, assuming we don't consider the Rites normal play.

Among other things, spellbane works a lot less when magic is in power. I found spells going through spellbane much more easily and commonly than normal. I would fight and check affects assuming I forgot to put up spellbane, but no, it was there, just not working well.

I am still wondering why the staff hasn't changed the echoes though, which are reversed. You gotta fix that Nep.

logs of some of the spellbane specials.

One or two require putting up spellbane during a fight with a mage, though, which has its own element of risk / opportunity cost.

How come you don't just do the switcharoo on the echoes? Ragers get the "bad" echo that says the veil grows thicker - which means magic is weaker, and the "good" echo when the veil weaknes - which means magic is stronger.

I'm really very curious, how come you don't just fix that seemingly sijmple and obvious mistake?

nt

>How come you don't just do the switcharoo on the echoes?
>Ragers get the "bad" echo that says the veil grows thicker -
>which means magic is weaker, and the "good" echo when the veil
>weaknes - which means magic is stronger.

I agree. As far as I know, it should be thick when magic is weak and thin when magic is strong. However, Nep did ask logs for the echoes..

Our conception of the Veil has changed since I first wrote that code, and I've been lazy about getting back to it. I'm good at chasing shiny things and bad at clean up.

Part of this is based on incorrect assumptions, but I find other parts of it interesting conceptually.

We'll see what happens.

at either pk or running. I still think teleport needs much much much more drawbacks, like maybe 5 rounds of lag. This would make teleport deaths more common and tesseract slightly more useful. Of course this really could make gate a little over the top against some people though.

Whats wrong with either fighting it out (and possibly winning or losing) or relying on other ways of travel... like running places. No matter how strong the veil is you can type east just as fast.

Teleporting is a very important part of the mage's survival kit. What this "uncertainty" of the spell's success has done is make it so that mages are more likely to run, as you suggested before trying to cast, because fleeing one room away and failing to cast or quaff would be certain death.

Also, there are a lot of times as a mage that there is just no way to beat a rager, which is why mage players don't "stick around to die". Ragers have little or nothing to lose, because their powers make them kick ass right out of the box, so to speak (talking about hero levels here). I don't know how many times I have seen ragers wearing crap bought in the village tear people apart...the people FACING the ragers have a lot to lose, typically. In my experience it usually means losing all of my gear and suffering having my face skinned and worn as a death mask x(

and I still think teleport is overpowered. It only takes one teleport to get away from a villager.

I personally think teleport should be a very very risky spell because it is the ultimate in escape tool. In fact you can tell new villagers from old ones because the new ones suck ####ing monkey balls because they grew dependant on teleport and word with old chars and are not used to chasing/running.

I mean it takes a long time to develope the reflexes and game knowledge to chase people down, it takes half a second to quaf teleport or c teleport making it super laggy would at the very least make it less of a tool for avoiding walking and for hunting. Even with the changes I think in 220 hours I had less then 6 teleport deaths and thats with a mage that perfected teleport by rank 30.

regearing is easier these days and people don't full loot as much I say let mofo's duke it out instead of handing every non villager a super easy out.

I'm sorta curious how the system actually works. I assume the benefit of killing a rager isn't completely undone by them unghosting right? Otherwise, what would be the point? All I've noticed so far is magic getting kicked in the nuts pretty hard.

Should I be spam killing more ragers or what?

I thought this was well presented, and I also agree.

Bobbyp

Seems to me the way the mechanic works serves to kick whom ever is down, keeping them down.

But if you reversed it, the system would provide an incentive for each side to do the "opposite" of what they're supposed to do. The idea behind it, as far as I can tell, is that there be some concrete benefit to boosting (or sapping) the strength of magic.

Maybe have the boost (or reduction) be adjusted by the "strength" of the side that's in power?

Suppose dead even is 0. Battle feeds a bunch of magic items to Tahren and/or kills some nexans. So now magic's at -5. But there are 10 ragers on and 2 nexans. Maybe adjust the "magic level" up to account for the fact that if there are 10 ragers on and only 2 nexans then magic *should* be taking a beating. Basically handicap it based on the relative strength of the two sides. So magic would only go "up" if the Nexans "overachieve" what you would expect given their numbers. It would only go "down" if Battle overachieves.

The place where this could get wacky is if one side greatly overpowers the other (say, ragers) but they don't do "enough" to damage magic. Then magic might actually be "high" because they're underachieving. So you'd need to somehow account for that.

>The place where this could get wacky is if one side greatly
>overpowers the other (say, ragers) but they don't do "enough"
>to damage magic. Then magic might actually be "high" because
>they're underachieving. So you'd need to somehow account for
>that.

Even worse, if we outnumber our enemies by 10 to 2 and have to work disproportionately harder on top of that, those two people are really going to be in a bad spot as every one of us frantically tries to beat them down in order to overcome our handicap. It'll make being the lone defender against the opposite side even that much worse in terms of being hunted mercilessly.

How about instead of that if it is 10 to 2 every kill/item drop/whatever made by the 10 side counts less than those made by the 2 side. Sure it'll still suck to be on the 2 side, but if you score a kill or two you'll have a greater influence than if the 10 are steam rolling you. Dunno... just a thought. I actually haven't noticed anything about the magic vs non-magic since it first went in, but I haven't been playing mage or rager.

The team that has the most numbers/strength, should not be able to impact as heavily using magic items/kills as the losing team. Their numbers will still mean they can sway magic all the way to their side, but it also means that they have to work that bit harder -because- they have a very big advantage.

Conversely, the side with just two weak players, should get a bonus when dropping an item they sacrificed a real time 10 minutes of major mage mob killing to gain. w00t :) And when they do score that kill, another bonus just to make it feel all the sweeter that you just took down the oppressor as an underdog. Its also motivation to stay online, when you are clearly about to get beaten ten ways to #### in a raid! I love defending against those odds at the destructor, but sometimes you really wonder if its worth the death long term.

Yhorian.

Just as a side thought that hit me, has there been any cabals before that were all about getting high power for magic? I mean the Nexus is half way there but they stop when it's balanced and even return the head when its powerful. So we have cabals on both sides of chaos and order, good and evil, but only the ragers on the far side of magic while the nexus is the middle of all. Would be cool to see a cabal that's only for making the veil ultra thin.

>Just as a side thought that hit me, has there been any cabals
>before that were all about getting high power for magic?

Scion really should be, since it (among other things) affects the strength of most of their powers.

>I
>mean the Nexus is half way there but they stop when it's
>balanced and even return the head when its powerful.

This is not necessarily true under all Nexus mortal leadership.

If mortals were to say break off from the Nexus through a bit of RP and get other mages about ignoring alignment and such but having the goal of making the veil as thin or non-existent as possible, would the Imms code that cabal if there were enough people RPing the idea or would it just be *good for you all, no*

Furthermore, the veil mechanic in place gives Scion an excuse to recruit even more melee/communer type classes and maybe bump up their average membership by one or two. They shouldn't become Empire-Deluxe again like they were when they first started, but to consistently thin the veil they will straight up need more manpower, specifically versatility not affected by the veil similar to what they have with Edimus right now strategically.

Besides, trying to thin the veil no matter what would inevitably lead to acts of evil more often than not. What good mage could possibly keep the veil thin through diplomacy? The presence of Ragers just absolutely prevents it from happening.